RWD H22 project has commenced
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From: Charleston, SC
Re: RWD H22 project has commenced (integra-modder)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integra-modder »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Its a difference in forces.
My addition:
Say the H22 is produces a force of 100 N at any given velocity at the rear wheels
The D16 is producing a force of 20N at the velocity as above.
The combined force will actually be 60, an average of the two. Since they are on the same frame, the H22 will actually have to be doing WORK to push the front wheels at the same speed as the rear.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Being a senior mechanical engineering student... Some of the comments I have read are quite funny. If you do not know how vectors work please do not pass information off as if you do.
The 2 motors will be exerting force in one direction, let's call it the X direction (i) for ***** and giggles. Let's say motor one produces a vector 200i and motor two produces vector 100i. The magnitude is simply the length of a vector... so the magnitude of the two motors would be 300i. If the 2 vectors are acting with an angle with each other, then you simply find their resultant force (total length displaced).
Who on earth taught you to average 2 vectors to get their total length? If you want to 'average' the power between the 2 motors then yes... it is 60hp per motor. Congratulations, you've conquered 3rd grade mathematics. However, your knowlege of statics is seriously lacking.
lol
Its a difference in forces.
My addition:
Say the H22 is produces a force of 100 N at any given velocity at the rear wheels
The D16 is producing a force of 20N at the velocity as above.
The combined force will actually be 60, an average of the two. Since they are on the same frame, the H22 will actually have to be doing WORK to push the front wheels at the same speed as the rear.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Being a senior mechanical engineering student... Some of the comments I have read are quite funny. If you do not know how vectors work please do not pass information off as if you do.
The 2 motors will be exerting force in one direction, let's call it the X direction (i) for ***** and giggles. Let's say motor one produces a vector 200i and motor two produces vector 100i. The magnitude is simply the length of a vector... so the magnitude of the two motors would be 300i. If the 2 vectors are acting with an angle with each other, then you simply find their resultant force (total length displaced).
Who on earth taught you to average 2 vectors to get their total length? If you want to 'average' the power between the 2 motors then yes... it is 60hp per motor. Congratulations, you've conquered 3rd grade mathematics. However, your knowlege of statics is seriously lacking.
lol
Thread Starter
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From: Traverse City, Michigan, USA
Re: RWD H22 project has commenced (ebp 99 si)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ebp 99 si »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if they are just gonna do this name calling bs then use the pm feature and keep it out of cody's post</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thank you! The tech stuff, by PrecisionH23A is great, but not the name calling, and "go home!" bullshit. Thank ya'll!
Thank you! The tech stuff, by PrecisionH23A is great, but not the name calling, and "go home!" bullshit. Thank ya'll!
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Manchester, NH, USA
Re: RWD H22 project has commenced (integra-modder)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by integra-modder »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
My addition:
Say the H22 is produces a force of 100 N at any given velocity at the rear wheels
The D16 is producing a force of 20N at the velocity as above.
The combined force will actually be 60, an average of the two. Since they are on the same frame, the H22 will actually have to be doing WORK to push the front wheels at the same speed as the rear.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, if your motor is making 100 horsepower and the wind is pushing you at a force of 5 horsepower, do you really just have 52.5 horsepower since you average them?
Or, if you have a motor in the back with 100 horsepower, and no motor in the front (zero horsepower), do you relly have 50 horsepower because you average them?
No. Duh.
If the motor in front makes less power, then it just does less work then the other motor. You still have a greater net power from the combination of the two motors.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Immagine a two person bicycle. If the guy in the front is holding his feet on the pedals and not providing any force to pedal the bike, the rear driver has to first, overcome the front drivers force of having his feel on the pedals and then the rest of the energy goes into pedaling the bike.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, that's not what it's like. First of all, the front motor isn't just sitting there, it's pushing. Think of this example: A man and a child are on a bike. The child starts pedaling. The man obviously doesn't have to do more work, because he's not moving the kid's legs is he? NO! The kid is still moving his own legs, and he's exerting a little bit of force on the pedals. The net result is more force on the pedals.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The fact that its a hydro linkage doesnt change anything. The princle is still the same. It produces less force, averaging them makes less power.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You don't average them. ADD. The motors have different FORCES, but they don't have different velocities... the rate at which they accelerate is determined by the amount of load they are under.
If you're sliding a box across the floor (you=10N) and your weak anorexic girlfriend comes (she=1N) and helps you push, do you end up with less force because you average the two out? **** no.
My addition:
Say the H22 is produces a force of 100 N at any given velocity at the rear wheels
The D16 is producing a force of 20N at the velocity as above.
The combined force will actually be 60, an average of the two. Since they are on the same frame, the H22 will actually have to be doing WORK to push the front wheels at the same speed as the rear.</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, if your motor is making 100 horsepower and the wind is pushing you at a force of 5 horsepower, do you really just have 52.5 horsepower since you average them?
Or, if you have a motor in the back with 100 horsepower, and no motor in the front (zero horsepower), do you relly have 50 horsepower because you average them?
No. Duh.
If the motor in front makes less power, then it just does less work then the other motor. You still have a greater net power from the combination of the two motors.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Immagine a two person bicycle. If the guy in the front is holding his feet on the pedals and not providing any force to pedal the bike, the rear driver has to first, overcome the front drivers force of having his feel on the pedals and then the rest of the energy goes into pedaling the bike.</TD></TR></TABLE>
No, that's not what it's like. First of all, the front motor isn't just sitting there, it's pushing. Think of this example: A man and a child are on a bike. The child starts pedaling. The man obviously doesn't have to do more work, because he's not moving the kid's legs is he? NO! The kid is still moving his own legs, and he's exerting a little bit of force on the pedals. The net result is more force on the pedals.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The fact that its a hydro linkage doesnt change anything. The princle is still the same. It produces less force, averaging them makes less power.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You don't average them. ADD. The motors have different FORCES, but they don't have different velocities... the rate at which they accelerate is determined by the amount of load they are under.
If you're sliding a box across the floor (you=10N) and your weak anorexic girlfriend comes (she=1N) and helps you push, do you end up with less force because you average the two out? **** no.
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: KC, MO
Re: (Tinker219)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tinker219 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its a twin-engine boat slower than a single engine boat? I think not...</TD></TR></TABLE>
True, but in twin engine boats the engines are the same and if you shut one engine off, the only losses due to friction would be the added drag of the unmoving prop in the water.
Twin engines DOES work. Their are multiple examples of this in all types of racing that work very well. Assuming both engines are matched, geared the same and could accelerate at roughly the same rate it would work well. I say go for it!
True, but in twin engine boats the engines are the same and if you shut one engine off, the only losses due to friction would be the added drag of the unmoving prop in the water.
Twin engines DOES work. Their are multiple examples of this in all types of racing that work very well. Assuming both engines are matched, geared the same and could accelerate at roughly the same rate it would work well. I say go for it!
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Manchester, NH, USA
Re: (ClubSiRacer)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ClubSiRacer »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
True, but in twin engine boats the engines are the same and if you shut one engine off, the only losses due to friction would be the added drag of the unmoving prop in the water.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The engines aren't the same, it's not possible. They are close though, yes.
Who cares what happens when you turn off the prop on a boat? That's nothing like that we're talking about.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Twin engines DOES work. Their are multiple examples of this in all types of racing that work very well. Assuming both engines are matched, geared the same and could accelerate at roughly the same rate it would work well. I say go for it! </TD></TR></TABLE>
They don't need to be geared the same, the only time gearing will matter is if you have to shift them manually (when you have to use the same tranny anyway). Autos or an auto and a manual can be geared however you want.
What the hell do you mean, accelerate at the same rate? The rate of acceleration is full dependant on load. How fast does your engine accelerate? Oh yeah, you can't say, because it's variable.
True, but in twin engine boats the engines are the same and if you shut one engine off, the only losses due to friction would be the added drag of the unmoving prop in the water.</TD></TR></TABLE>
The engines aren't the same, it's not possible. They are close though, yes.
Who cares what happens when you turn off the prop on a boat? That's nothing like that we're talking about.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Twin engines DOES work. Their are multiple examples of this in all types of racing that work very well. Assuming both engines are matched, geared the same and could accelerate at roughly the same rate it would work well. I say go for it!
</TD></TR></TABLE>They don't need to be geared the same, the only time gearing will matter is if you have to shift them manually (when you have to use the same tranny anyway). Autos or an auto and a manual can be geared however you want.
What the hell do you mean, accelerate at the same rate? The rate of acceleration is full dependant on load. How fast does your engine accelerate? Oh yeah, you can't say, because it's variable.
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From: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Re:
One of our shop cars is a Twin engine VR6 Golf. I helped out alot in making this car and we too went through the same things with the clutch and the shifter cables.
Now that we have perfected it, it's actually very simple.
When you have two trannys with a hydraulic setup, you have to understand how fluid distribution works.
The fluid will try to go to the closest slave to the master. The idea of putting in a 50/50 proportioning valve at first may seem good, however, you'll only complicate something that isn't really that complicated.
What you should do is: Put in a tee (not a y) but a tee in the exact middle of the distance between the two trannys. The line from your master to the tee should also be one size up from the regular line that you'll be using from tee to the salves on the tranny. This will insure quick activation of the clutches. By having the tee in the exact middle of the two trannys you just made the distance the same between the two so you wont have that problem of one getting it first. You have to bleed the system well also, to insure no air is in it at all. Maybe getting two of those Earls fittings that bleed by themselves would also be a good idea and install them on the slaves.
The only problem that you may have is the master might not be strong enough to activate both slaves...which in that case I recommend going with a master that is also one size up.
Also, remember that whenever you do this BOTH pressure plates MUST have the same clamping force. Otherwise everything I just said won't work at all. Both clutches must be the same. We didn't have that problem since we used a Tilton pedal assembly with a master that is 3/4-inch and we used two Clutch Masters Stage 3 clutches assemblies...however the pedal does feel alot stiffer when you go up in size of the master.
Sorry for the long post guys but this was the only way I could explain all this.
Now that we have perfected it, it's actually very simple.
When you have two trannys with a hydraulic setup, you have to understand how fluid distribution works.
The fluid will try to go to the closest slave to the master. The idea of putting in a 50/50 proportioning valve at first may seem good, however, you'll only complicate something that isn't really that complicated.
What you should do is: Put in a tee (not a y) but a tee in the exact middle of the distance between the two trannys. The line from your master to the tee should also be one size up from the regular line that you'll be using from tee to the salves on the tranny. This will insure quick activation of the clutches. By having the tee in the exact middle of the two trannys you just made the distance the same between the two so you wont have that problem of one getting it first. You have to bleed the system well also, to insure no air is in it at all. Maybe getting two of those Earls fittings that bleed by themselves would also be a good idea and install them on the slaves.
The only problem that you may have is the master might not be strong enough to activate both slaves...which in that case I recommend going with a master that is also one size up.
Also, remember that whenever you do this BOTH pressure plates MUST have the same clamping force. Otherwise everything I just said won't work at all. Both clutches must be the same. We didn't have that problem since we used a Tilton pedal assembly with a master that is 3/4-inch and we used two Clutch Masters Stage 3 clutches assemblies...however the pedal does feel alot stiffer when you go up in size of the master.
Sorry for the long post guys but this was the only way I could explain all this.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 321
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From: KC, MO
Re: (kpt4321)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kpt4321 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
They don't need to be geared the same, the only time gearing will matter is if you have to shift them manually (when you have to use the same tranny anyway). Autos or an auto and a manual can be geared however you want.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmm, was he not saying he was going to use 5speed trannys? Duh, dont you think that is what I was talking about.
You sure like to tail me around and try and twist everything I say into something else. Why dont you just lay off, its really old... Grow up man.
They don't need to be geared the same, the only time gearing will matter is if you have to shift them manually (when you have to use the same tranny anyway). Autos or an auto and a manual can be geared however you want.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hmm, was he not saying he was going to use 5speed trannys? Duh, dont you think that is what I was talking about.
You sure like to tail me around and try and twist everything I say into something else. Why dont you just lay off, its really old... Grow up man.
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From: Northern, VA
Re: RWD H22 project has commenced (integra-modder)
Wow.. the stupid people on this board honestly and truly never cease to amaze me..
Just a word of advice.. seriously.. if you have NO ******* clue WTF you're talking about, seriously STFU. It's that goddamn simple!!! It's quite ******* clear you have absolutely NO clue what you're talking about, and that you haven't even taken physics I.. because that's probably one of the first things you learn.. LOL Wow, again, I've never seen someone pull such bs out of their ***.. Averaging 2 vectors in the same direction...?
Boy I love honda-"tech" sometimes.
-Mike
Just a word of advice.. seriously.. if you have NO ******* clue WTF you're talking about, seriously STFU. It's that goddamn simple!!! It's quite ******* clear you have absolutely NO clue what you're talking about, and that you haven't even taken physics I.. because that's probably one of the first things you learn.. LOL Wow, again, I've never seen someone pull such bs out of their ***.. Averaging 2 vectors in the same direction...?
Boy I love honda-"tech" sometimes.
-Mike
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Joined: Apr 2002
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From: A, SC, USA
Re: (Tinker219)
I'm just wondering because I've been racking my brain for the past 2 days trying to figure it out for myself, but how do you plan on engaging gears? I even went as far as making a Working Model 2D model. Just interested.
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From: NorCal
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From: Add 2291 posts Lil Sumo Town, Minnesota, USA
Re: RWD H22 project has commenced (PrecisionH23a)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PrecisionH23a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Being a senior mechanical engineering student... Some of the comments I have read are quite funny. If you do not know how vectors work please do not pass information off as if you do.
The 2 motors will be exerting force in one direction, let's call it the X direction (i) for ***** and giggles. Let's say motor one produces a vector 200i and motor two produces vector 100i. The magnitude is simply the length of a vector... so the magnitude of the two motors would be 300i. If the 2 vectors are acting with an angle with each other, then you simply find their resultant force (total length displaced).
Who on earth taught you to average 2 vectors to get their total length? If you want to 'average' the power between the 2 motors then yes... it is 60hp per motor. Congratulations, you've conquered 3rd grade mathematics. However, your knowlege of statics is seriously lacking.
lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
owned by a fellow engineering student
Being a senior mechanical engineering student... Some of the comments I have read are quite funny. If you do not know how vectors work please do not pass information off as if you do.
The 2 motors will be exerting force in one direction, let's call it the X direction (i) for ***** and giggles. Let's say motor one produces a vector 200i and motor two produces vector 100i. The magnitude is simply the length of a vector... so the magnitude of the two motors would be 300i. If the 2 vectors are acting with an angle with each other, then you simply find their resultant force (total length displaced).
Who on earth taught you to average 2 vectors to get their total length? If you want to 'average' the power between the 2 motors then yes... it is 60hp per motor. Congratulations, you've conquered 3rd grade mathematics. However, your knowlege of statics is seriously lacking.
lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
owned by a fellow engineering student
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From: Danbury, CT, 06804
vectors arent simple, if all u ppl explaining them are correct, i wish u helped me when i did vectors in school. i really doubt any of you are 100% correct, otherwise my teacher could have taught me that crap in 5 min. lol. i wnana see more pix, keep up the good work.
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From: Northern, VA
Re: (KraZEtEggIE)
Haha, if you want some help w/ doing basic arithmetic w/ vectors hit me up on pm!
But vectors really are that simple.. because assuming the car is accelerating in a straight line, when you have 2 vectors in the same DIRECTION, you can simply add the magnitude of each to get the sum of the vectors.. If you're talking about vectors in different directions, then you simply add the components of the vectors to get the sum. If you're looking for the components of a vector you just use the appropriate sine/cosine of the angle * the magnitude w/ respect to 0 degrees and that will give you the x/y components.
And w/ regard to this topic... since we're simply traveling in a straight line, meaning same direction, we can simply add them giving 500 + 100 = 600. Not 500-100=400.
Back on topic..
-Mike
Modified by SlowTeg at 3:25 AM 2/4/2004
But vectors really are that simple.. because assuming the car is accelerating in a straight line, when you have 2 vectors in the same DIRECTION, you can simply add the magnitude of each to get the sum of the vectors.. If you're talking about vectors in different directions, then you simply add the components of the vectors to get the sum. If you're looking for the components of a vector you just use the appropriate sine/cosine of the angle * the magnitude w/ respect to 0 degrees and that will give you the x/y components.
And w/ regard to this topic... since we're simply traveling in a straight line, meaning same direction, we can simply add them giving 500 + 100 = 600. Not 500-100=400.
Back on topic..
-Mike
Modified by SlowTeg at 3:25 AM 2/4/2004
Thread Starter
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Posts: 5,273
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From: Traverse City, Michigan, USA
Re: (ElectronMan)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ElectronMan »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm just wondering because I've been racking my brain for the past 2 days trying to figure it out for myself, but how do you plan on engaging gears? I even went as far as making a Working Model 2D model. Just interested.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Front set of shift cables WOULD go here:
And the rear cables ARE here:
Even keep the traditional H pattern!
Thanks for the link on the master cylinder, at least now I have a reference to start looking for things!
Front set of shift cables WOULD go here:
And the rear cables ARE here:
Even keep the traditional H pattern!
Thanks for the link on the master cylinder, at least now I have a reference to start looking for things!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 5,724
Likes: 1
From: Hillburn, NY, USA
Re: (Tinker219)
How about a Supercharged Auto H22 in the front...and the rear turbo manual H22?
You get the best of all worlds:
- Instant Power (SC)
- Mid Range & High End Power (Turbo)
- No shifting issues (1 manual, 1 auto)
And I'm guessing you could figure a way to use some of the exhaust gases from the front engine to some how spin an even larger Turbine on the turbo in the back for even more added power.
Wow, this thread really gets your imagination going!
Good work Cody
You get the best of all worlds:
- Instant Power (SC)
- Mid Range & High End Power (Turbo)
- No shifting issues (1 manual, 1 auto)
And I'm guessing you could figure a way to use some of the exhaust gases from the front engine to some how spin an even larger Turbine on the turbo in the back for even more added power.
Wow, this thread really gets your imagination going!
Good work Cody