All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean
12-10-2007, 07:03 AM
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All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean
Hello,
99 Civic SI, stock internals, just intake and exhaust, no header. Advanced about 2-3 degrees from stock, no detonation, it has been like that for about 6000 miles and had nothing but better mileage and power all around from it.
O2 sensor is about 20-25 thousand miles old. Cat is about 30k old OEM.
1 month ago, had 2 codes, both primary O2 sensor, reset both times, was going to replace, but it never came on again.
Which brings me to the point. I have been getting 15-20mpg lately at 3 different gas stations for 2 tanks each.
I looked at my plugs, the tips, (curved bar and center pin) are perfectly WHITE.
The ring around the bottom of the plug, is pitch BLACK ... powdery, as if running rich, not oil.
I have no idea what that means.
What should I do? I have not been able to find anything on plugs like that.
Thank you in advance.
99 Civic SI, stock internals, just intake and exhaust, no header. Advanced about 2-3 degrees from stock, no detonation, it has been like that for about 6000 miles and had nothing but better mileage and power all around from it.
O2 sensor is about 20-25 thousand miles old. Cat is about 30k old OEM.
1 month ago, had 2 codes, both primary O2 sensor, reset both times, was going to replace, but it never came on again.
Which brings me to the point. I have been getting 15-20mpg lately at 3 different gas stations for 2 tanks each.
I looked at my plugs, the tips, (curved bar and center pin) are perfectly WHITE.
The ring around the bottom of the plug, is pitch BLACK ... powdery, as if running rich, not oil.
I have no idea what that means.
What should I do? I have not been able to find anything on plugs like that.
Thank you in advance.
12-10-2007, 08:55 AM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (CooBlueDAB)
not so sure about this, but i want to say that the black was from before you advanced the timing and the white is from after. i am not sure why your gas mileage is trash though.... 
how does the car feel? does it drive different when you are warming it up?
also, do you think you may have not been able to hear light pinging because of the exhaust?
how does the car feel? does it drive different when you are warming it up?also, do you think you may have not been able to hear light pinging because of the exhaust?
12-10-2007, 09:05 AM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (thisisntjared)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thisisntjared »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not so sure about this, but i want to say that the black was from before you advanced the timing and the white is from after. i am not sure why your gas mileage is trash though.... how does the car feel? does it drive different when you are warming it up?
also, do you think you may have not been able to hear light pinging because of the exhaust?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No pinging whatsoever, was very careful about that. And it is a magnaflow, which is a bit louder now, but if you have one, you know inside it is not loud at all. Engine much louder with intake.
The plugs are older than the timing advance, yes, but they were checked a lot as well when changing the timing, it was a healthy color after timing.
As for how the car feels, it warms up properly and very quick at highway speeds. Basically all the mechanical things you can notice, no vtec, etc... higher idle, all normal. I also dont go hard on it until it is at proper temp. The power does seem to lack a bit, not much from before... all through the power band, but it is smooth.
Ive already ordered a o2 sensor, I really wanted to wait until I got a broadband one for tuning later on, but... I think I have come to the conclusion that it is running way rich, but the plugs are very good and thus still burning it all.. or at least, effectively and not being overwhelmed and flooded at the electrodes... still no concrete evidence. so please keep suggestions coming. I have many days until I get a o2... and I would like to check, clean etc.. other stuff in case there could be other things.
how does the car feel? does it drive different when you are warming it up?also, do you think you may have not been able to hear light pinging because of the exhaust?</TD></TR></TABLE>
No pinging whatsoever, was very careful about that. And it is a magnaflow, which is a bit louder now, but if you have one, you know inside it is not loud at all. Engine much louder with intake.
The plugs are older than the timing advance, yes, but they were checked a lot as well when changing the timing, it was a healthy color after timing.
As for how the car feels, it warms up properly and very quick at highway speeds. Basically all the mechanical things you can notice, no vtec, etc... higher idle, all normal. I also dont go hard on it until it is at proper temp. The power does seem to lack a bit, not much from before... all through the power band, but it is smooth.
Ive already ordered a o2 sensor, I really wanted to wait until I got a broadband one for tuning later on, but... I think I have come to the conclusion that it is running way rich, but the plugs are very good and thus still burning it all.. or at least, effectively and not being overwhelmed and flooded at the electrodes... still no concrete evidence. so please keep suggestions coming. I have many days until I get a o2... and I would like to check, clean etc.. other stuff in case there could be other things.
12-10-2007, 09:06 AM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (CooBlueDAB)
If i were you i would go ahead and replace the O2 sensor anyway. On my 94 the o2 sensor went and i was getting about 18 mpg, now im getting over 30 again. Also my CEL wasn't on
12-10-2007, 09:22 AM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (94excivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94excivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If i were you i would go ahead and replace the O2 sensor anyway. On my 94 the o2 sensor went and i was getting about 18 mpg, now im getting over 30 again. Also my CEL wasn't on</TD></TR></TABLE>i think you are right. i bet it is the o2 sensor. now that i think about it, under WOT its running of the maps and is running right(A/F wise), when cruising its probably dumping extra fuel in with the reading from the tired o2 sensor.
i have to be honest, ive never had this problem, but it makes sense to me. what were the codes for the o2 sensor? also which one was replaced?
i have to be honest, ive never had this problem, but it makes sense to me. what were the codes for the o2 sensor? also which one was replaced?
12-10-2007, 09:26 AM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (94excivic)
Which of these - if any - do your spark plugs resemble?
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Pl....html
Also, check out example number 2 here:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Sp....html
And see if that helps you diagnose things.
The most logical solution, from the little we can know, is to set the timing with a timing light back to zero +/- and sandblast or change the primary oxygen sensor. At the very least, you'll want to pull the oxygen sensor to see if there's any kind of obvious fouling or post-combustion damage (I've seen them blown nearly apart before).
Do work and report back, soldier
Good luck.
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Pl....html
Also, check out example number 2 here:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Sp....html
And see if that helps you diagnose things.
The most logical solution, from the little we can know, is to set the timing with a timing light back to zero +/- and sandblast or change the primary oxygen sensor. At the very least, you'll want to pull the oxygen sensor to see if there's any kind of obvious fouling or post-combustion damage (I've seen them blown nearly apart before).
Do work and report back, soldier
Good luck.
12-10-2007, 09:26 AM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (thisisntjared)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thisisntjared »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think you are right. i bet it is the o2 sensor. now that i think about it, under WOT its running of the maps and is running right(A/F wise), when cruising its probably dumping extra fuel in with the reading from the tired o2 sensor.
i have to be honest, ive never had this problem, but it makes sense to me. what were the codes for the o2 sensor? also which one was replaced?</TD></TR></TABLE>
The first code I got I read with the pin trick, it was like 62 or something, the primary o2 sensor code... confirmed at a valvoline with 148? or 162? in either case it indicated 3 things possible but o2 sensor was first.
The one O2 that WAS replaced was the primary, before the cat. I want to nip this quick the reason the old cat went bad was from it running way rich....
i have to be honest, ive never had this problem, but it makes sense to me. what were the codes for the o2 sensor? also which one was replaced?</TD></TR></TABLE>
The first code I got I read with the pin trick, it was like 62 or something, the primary o2 sensor code... confirmed at a valvoline with 148? or 162? in either case it indicated 3 things possible but o2 sensor was first.
The one O2 that WAS replaced was the primary, before the cat. I want to nip this quick the reason the old cat went bad was from it running way rich....
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12-10-2007, 09:36 AM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (Archidictus)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Archidictus »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Which of these - if any - do your spark plugs resemble?
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Pl....html
Also, check out example number 2 here:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Sp....html
And see if that helps you diagnose things.
The most logical solution, from the little we can know, is to set the timing with a timing light back to zero +/- and sandblast or change the primary oxygen sensor. At the very least, you'll want to pull the oxygen sensor to see if there's any kind of obvious fouling or post-combustion damage (I've seen them blown nearly apart before).
Do work and report back, soldier
Good luck.</TD></TR></TABLE>
aite, in a way it sorta resembled the last spark plug on the second link with all the arrows and meaning of color. Except it was more of a drastic color change. Also from the second link with explanations of timing it appears to possibly be too advanced by a little, but not much if it is. And midrange and idle are definitely rich, from what I gathered from the last two pictures, Im going to pull a plug again and post it on here in a few minutes so you can see for yourselves.
Modified by CooBlueDAB at 1:51 PM 12/10/2007
http://www.dansmc.com/Spark_Pl....html
Also, check out example number 2 here:
http://www.4secondsflat.com/Sp....html
And see if that helps you diagnose things.
The most logical solution, from the little we can know, is to set the timing with a timing light back to zero +/- and sandblast or change the primary oxygen sensor. At the very least, you'll want to pull the oxygen sensor to see if there's any kind of obvious fouling or post-combustion damage (I've seen them blown nearly apart before).
Do work and report back, soldier
Good luck.</TD></TR></TABLE>
aite, in a way it sorta resembled the last spark plug on the second link with all the arrows and meaning of color. Except it was more of a drastic color change. Also from the second link with explanations of timing it appears to possibly be too advanced by a little, but not much if it is. And midrange and idle are definitely rich, from what I gathered from the last two pictures, Im going to pull a plug again and post it on here in a few minutes so you can see for yourselves.
Modified by CooBlueDAB at 1:51 PM 12/10/2007
12-10-2007, 10:09 AM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (CooBlueDAB)
Here are the pics of one of the plugs. Note... I had done a few WOT runs before hand to see if any different, the top is a bit less white, and bottom has spots where you can see metal, where as before, it was just a smooth powdery black, not spotted or rough looking at all. Some of the pics had flash, some did not, to help see things you cannot without being there in person.
12-10-2007, 12:23 PM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (CooBlueDAB)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CooBlueDAB »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No pinging whatsoever, was very careful about that. And it is a magnaflow, which is a bit louder now, but if you have one, you know inside it is not loud at all. Engine much louder with intake.
The plugs are older than the timing advance, yes, but they were checked a lot as well when changing the timing, it was a healthy color after timing.
As for how the car feels, it warms up properly and very quick at highway speeds. Basically all the mechanical things you can notice, no vtec, etc... higher idle, all normal. I also dont go hard on it until it is at proper temp. The power does seem to lack a bit, not much from before... all through the power band, but it is smooth.
Ive already ordered a o2 sensor, I really wanted to wait until I got a broadband one for tuning later on, but... I think I have come to the conclusion that it is running way rich, but the plugs are very good and thus still burning it all.. or at least, effectively and not being overwhelmed and flooded at the electrodes... still no concrete evidence. so please keep suggestions coming. I have many days until I get a o2... and I would like to check, clean etc.. other stuff in case there could be other things.</TD></TR></TABLE>
what octane fuel r u running...
No pinging whatsoever, was very careful about that. And it is a magnaflow, which is a bit louder now, but if you have one, you know inside it is not loud at all. Engine much louder with intake.
The plugs are older than the timing advance, yes, but they were checked a lot as well when changing the timing, it was a healthy color after timing.
As for how the car feels, it warms up properly and very quick at highway speeds. Basically all the mechanical things you can notice, no vtec, etc... higher idle, all normal. I also dont go hard on it until it is at proper temp. The power does seem to lack a bit, not much from before... all through the power band, but it is smooth.
Ive already ordered a o2 sensor, I really wanted to wait until I got a broadband one for tuning later on, but... I think I have come to the conclusion that it is running way rich, but the plugs are very good and thus still burning it all.. or at least, effectively and not being overwhelmed and flooded at the electrodes... still no concrete evidence. so please keep suggestions coming. I have many days until I get a o2... and I would like to check, clean etc.. other stuff in case there could be other things.</TD></TR></TABLE>
what octane fuel r u running...
12-10-2007, 07:41 PM
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Re: All Spark plugs BOTH White and Black?!?! what does it mean (groundzerocivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by groundzerocivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
what octane fuel r u running...</TD></TR></TABLE>
as I said, high, 93 to be exact, and an SI probably only needs 89 or 90 at most.. it might be on the high compression end, but at the very lowest possible level.
what octane fuel r u running...</TD></TR></TABLE>
as I said, high, 93 to be exact, and an SI probably only needs 89 or 90 at most.. it might be on the high compression end, but at the very lowest possible level.
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