Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
05-20-2012, 04:56 AM
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
Please feel free to constructively critique this....
My VTEC Mini has almost gotten to the point where I have the one piece fiberglass nose on and in a drivable condition. It is in no way close to final fit or finish but it will make the long trip to the shop to have the turbo system installed and tuned. Which I'm scheduling now. The flip up will give the installer incredible access to everything, easing his job. You can reach it all by sitting on a 5 gallon bucket in front of it.
I've read everything all you have said (as well as everywhere else) and here is my basic want/wish list that the installer says is do-able. Obviously, this is a list of broad strokes and not specifying anything regarding the location of parts with the exception of the intercooler, which will ft horizontally between the valve cover and firewall...sort of like a Subaru. I'll eventually put a small scoop above it. It has to be small as there is almost no hood area, this car is that small.
I don't want to break open the engine at all. So the power has to be low enough that I don't have to consider that. I realize this may be overkill for this goal but reliability, longevity and driveability are chief concerns. The engine is a stock JDM B18C Type-R with a 3.47 F/D and in a 1660 lb car...a little goes a long way.
Thanks for all your help and constructive opinions, which are still welcome.
1) Garret GT28RS, a) oil cooled, b) water cooled
2) TIAL waste gate
3) TIAL BOV
4) Air to air Intercooler (hopefully mounted between the valve cover and firewall and above the intake manifold.)
5) Hondata S300
6) Exhaust manifold (whatever is appropriate)
7) Oil cooler with thermostat (Mounting/location TBD)
8) Moroso oil pan w/bung
9) Fuel injectors (whatever is appropriate)
10) Additional fuel pump?
11) Myriad of custom hard plumbing
12) Braided lines
13) Boost gauge
14) Oil temp gauge
15) Turbo timer
16) Complete tune
I expect that it's possible a new radiator may be recommended.
......Other gauges?...Stuff?
My VTEC Mini has almost gotten to the point where I have the one piece fiberglass nose on and in a drivable condition. It is in no way close to final fit or finish but it will make the long trip to the shop to have the turbo system installed and tuned. Which I'm scheduling now. The flip up will give the installer incredible access to everything, easing his job. You can reach it all by sitting on a 5 gallon bucket in front of it.
I've read everything all you have said (as well as everywhere else) and here is my basic want/wish list that the installer says is do-able. Obviously, this is a list of broad strokes and not specifying anything regarding the location of parts with the exception of the intercooler, which will ft horizontally between the valve cover and firewall...sort of like a Subaru. I'll eventually put a small scoop above it. It has to be small as there is almost no hood area, this car is that small.
I don't want to break open the engine at all. So the power has to be low enough that I don't have to consider that. I realize this may be overkill for this goal but reliability, longevity and driveability are chief concerns. The engine is a stock JDM B18C Type-R with a 3.47 F/D and in a 1660 lb car...a little goes a long way.
Thanks for all your help and constructive opinions, which are still welcome.
1) Garret GT28RS, a) oil cooled, b) water cooled
2) TIAL waste gate
3) TIAL BOV
4) Air to air Intercooler (hopefully mounted between the valve cover and firewall and above the intake manifold.)
5) Hondata S300
6) Exhaust manifold (whatever is appropriate)
7) Oil cooler with thermostat (Mounting/location TBD)
8) Moroso oil pan w/bung
9) Fuel injectors (whatever is appropriate)
10) Additional fuel pump?
11) Myriad of custom hard plumbing
12) Braided lines
13) Boost gauge
14) Oil temp gauge
15) Turbo timer
16) Complete tune
I expect that it's possible a new radiator may be recommended.
......Other gauges?...Stuff?
Last edited by VTEC+Mini; 05-20-2012 at 09:44 AM.
05-20-2012, 09:36 AM
#2
Re: Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
The GT28RS already comes wiith an internal wastegate, and is oil and water cooled as a requirement, so there's no need to use an external wastegate at all, especially for the power level that you're trying to achieve. In this instance you don't need "grow more later" like some drag racer trying to make "10s". This is a simple setup that uses an exhaust manifold (like we discussed in your other thread), that is a tubular log and flanged for a T25, with NO EXTERNAL WASTEGATE ELBOW.. (I suggest contacting spoolin' performance for that and the downpipe as the flanging is unique... Go-Autowerks is also a good place to contact for those items).
Injector size would be in the realm of 550-700cc as appropriate. there are several companies used depending upon your budget, needs, and whether or not a resistor box is needed (PM me for option choices).
Honestly, in your case, and air-to-air oil cooler is not necessary for your type of driving and the power level you're achieving. to get better engine temperatures, your radiator type and design are much more crucial than an oil cooler. (Trust me, I have an air-to-air oil cooler for Time Attack.. Its only used for higher endurance racing.. not what you're doing here).
The use of a Moroso pan is also not needed, it advantage being better baffling and a pre-welded bung. The drawback is proper oil return setup, because it sets the bung in a strange spot. I'd look to see about having your stock one welded up properly unless you already have the moreoso. Remember, think of your purpose, and not just what drag racers are using (though there is a significant number of turbo drag racers here.)
The air-to -Air intercooler cannot be at the firewall. it must face forward to gather outside air. Its a heat exchanger, and a very effective one, at that. you want that as close to the front of the car as possible. going towards the firewall is not an option, as Honda's tend to need good sized intercooler (larger than the side-mounted Supra I/Cs that are popular with regular Astin-Martin chassis) to get a good exchange of air, to keep intake air temps down. a bit of intercooler piping is needed, but not enough is needed to where it inhibits the design of the front end or take up alot of room. but there must be access to outside air. With your one piece front end, you'll need to open a proper sized hole to expose even a decent sized one.
That's about it now, I can go further if you'd like.
Injector size would be in the realm of 550-700cc as appropriate. there are several companies used depending upon your budget, needs, and whether or not a resistor box is needed (PM me for option choices).
Honestly, in your case, and air-to-air oil cooler is not necessary for your type of driving and the power level you're achieving. to get better engine temperatures, your radiator type and design are much more crucial than an oil cooler. (Trust me, I have an air-to-air oil cooler for Time Attack.. Its only used for higher endurance racing.. not what you're doing here).
The use of a Moroso pan is also not needed, it advantage being better baffling and a pre-welded bung. The drawback is proper oil return setup, because it sets the bung in a strange spot. I'd look to see about having your stock one welded up properly unless you already have the moreoso. Remember, think of your purpose, and not just what drag racers are using (though there is a significant number of turbo drag racers here.)
The air-to -Air intercooler cannot be at the firewall. it must face forward to gather outside air. Its a heat exchanger, and a very effective one, at that. you want that as close to the front of the car as possible. going towards the firewall is not an option, as Honda's tend to need good sized intercooler (larger than the side-mounted Supra I/Cs that are popular with regular Astin-Martin chassis) to get a good exchange of air, to keep intake air temps down. a bit of intercooler piping is needed, but not enough is needed to where it inhibits the design of the front end or take up alot of room. but there must be access to outside air. With your one piece front end, you'll need to open a proper sized hole to expose even a decent sized one.
That's about it now, I can go further if you'd like.
05-20-2012, 10:15 AM
#3
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
ThSHodan, thank you once again for shedding light on this. I'll take all things into consideration and make decisions based on the best info I have.
Please take a look at this build on the 16V Mini forum,
http://www.16vminiclub.com/forums/sh...ht=intercooler
This is where I got many of the ideas. You can see in this build that the Intercooler is face up, where air through a scoop could be forced down through it.
If I could eliminate the Moroso pan that would great. I don't want anything I don't need and I've heard people complain that they leak.
I'm not sure I understand completely about the resister box for the fuel injectors.
Also, the internal vs external waste gate there seems to be some controversy on. Again, I'm not exactly sure why. The best explanation I've read is that the internal gates are less efficient and are more prone to leak.
I'm dealing with Greg from Go-Autoworks...who's agreed to do the work.
As always, any additional information can only help me.
Please take a look at this build on the 16V Mini forum,
http://www.16vminiclub.com/forums/sh...ht=intercooler
This is where I got many of the ideas. You can see in this build that the Intercooler is face up, where air through a scoop could be forced down through it.
If I could eliminate the Moroso pan that would great. I don't want anything I don't need and I've heard people complain that they leak.
I'm not sure I understand completely about the resister box for the fuel injectors.
Also, the internal vs external waste gate there seems to be some controversy on. Again, I'm not exactly sure why. The best explanation I've read is that the internal gates are less efficient and are more prone to leak.
I'm dealing with Greg from Go-Autoworks...who's agreed to do the work.
As always, any additional information can only help me.
05-20-2012, 11:48 AM
#4
Re: Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
My comments are in BOLD
ThSHodan, thank you once again for shedding light on this. I'll take all things into consideration and make decisions based on the best info I have.
Please take a look at this build on the 16V Mini forum,
http://www.16vminiclub.com/forums/sh...ht=intercooler
I'll look at this more
This is where I got many of the ideas. You can see in this build that the Intercooler is face up, where air through a scoop could be forced down through it.
Its possible if large enough, even with your engine bay constraints, similar to a subaru setup, but the inlet into the intercooler needs to be pretty big. Big scoop with bigger intercooler.
If I could eliminate the Moroso pan that would great. I don't want anything I don't need and I've heard people complain that they leak.
The moreoso pan is best installed with the engine out and inverted. when done like a traditional pan, is where the leaks start to come into play. In your case, stick to the oem pan and make a custom weld bung there.
I'm not sure I understand completely about the resister box for the fuel injectors.
some injectors that are higher flowing (Delphi make some of the older style Precision injectors, but Siemen Deka, Kieshin[DSM] and others use a lower resistor reading of ohms in order to operate. A resistor box, takes the amount of ohms used to power the injectors and lowers them so that they can fire. Honda injectors are considered to be high impedence (over 12.5ohms) so the use of a resistor box is typically needed.
However, with new choices out there from Bosch, such as the Injector Dynamics and Fuel Injector Clinic series, don't require a resistor box or any way to lower ohms, so this gives a better option. they are more expensive than "traditional" aftermarket injectors, but do quite well
Also, the internal vs external waste gate there seems to be some controversy on. Again, I'm not exactly sure why. The best explanation I've read is that the internal gates are less efficient and are more prone to leak.
Shananigans.. All depends upon the amount of power used and the turbocharger that you're trying to have in place. Most people who do think that also believe that you want increasingly more power than what the turbo you're chosen is capable of (A GT2860RS is PERFECT for your application). But in all actuality, you'll be more than fine with an internal gate for specific instance.. It will not "leak" and its limit is dependent upon which actuator you've chosen.
Granted, those that want more power over 400whp are limited in use of the internal gate, in which switching to an external is the best option, but for this particular build with this particular goal in mind, I see no reason to go to an external gate and take up more precious room than necessary. Many of H-Ters in this forum only know about external gates, and no nothing about the necessities of a proper internal gate setup when space is of the essence. the manifold chosen and used in the picture is an example of a proper manifold with use of an internal gate.
I'm dealing with Greg from Go-Autoworks...who's agreed to do the work.
Awesome choice. Simply go by the guidelines we discussed (tubular log manifold with no external gate, and uses a T25 inlet and GT-5 bolt turbine flange for the downpipe,) and i'm sure you'll be taken care of expeditiously.
As always, any additional information can only help me.
Keep it up! sounds like you're going in the right direction, except for the final drive. Keep that closer to stock. I know you have small tires, but we found that 4.0FD is best,
Please take a look at this build on the 16V Mini forum,
http://www.16vminiclub.com/forums/sh...ht=intercooler
I'll look at this more
This is where I got many of the ideas. You can see in this build that the Intercooler is face up, where air through a scoop could be forced down through it.
Its possible if large enough, even with your engine bay constraints, similar to a subaru setup, but the inlet into the intercooler needs to be pretty big. Big scoop with bigger intercooler.
If I could eliminate the Moroso pan that would great. I don't want anything I don't need and I've heard people complain that they leak.
The moreoso pan is best installed with the engine out and inverted. when done like a traditional pan, is where the leaks start to come into play. In your case, stick to the oem pan and make a custom weld bung there.
I'm not sure I understand completely about the resister box for the fuel injectors.
some injectors that are higher flowing (Delphi make some of the older style Precision injectors, but Siemen Deka, Kieshin[DSM] and others use a lower resistor reading of ohms in order to operate. A resistor box, takes the amount of ohms used to power the injectors and lowers them so that they can fire. Honda injectors are considered to be high impedence (over 12.5ohms) so the use of a resistor box is typically needed.
However, with new choices out there from Bosch, such as the Injector Dynamics and Fuel Injector Clinic series, don't require a resistor box or any way to lower ohms, so this gives a better option. they are more expensive than "traditional" aftermarket injectors, but do quite well
Also, the internal vs external waste gate there seems to be some controversy on. Again, I'm not exactly sure why. The best explanation I've read is that the internal gates are less efficient and are more prone to leak.
Shananigans.. All depends upon the amount of power used and the turbocharger that you're trying to have in place. Most people who do think that also believe that you want increasingly more power than what the turbo you're chosen is capable of (A GT2860RS is PERFECT for your application). But in all actuality, you'll be more than fine with an internal gate for specific instance.. It will not "leak" and its limit is dependent upon which actuator you've chosen.
Granted, those that want more power over 400whp are limited in use of the internal gate, in which switching to an external is the best option, but for this particular build with this particular goal in mind, I see no reason to go to an external gate and take up more precious room than necessary. Many of H-Ters in this forum only know about external gates, and no nothing about the necessities of a proper internal gate setup when space is of the essence. the manifold chosen and used in the picture is an example of a proper manifold with use of an internal gate.
I'm dealing with Greg from Go-Autoworks...who's agreed to do the work.
Awesome choice. Simply go by the guidelines we discussed (tubular log manifold with no external gate, and uses a T25 inlet and GT-5 bolt turbine flange for the downpipe,) and i'm sure you'll be taken care of expeditiously.
As always, any additional information can only help me.
Keep it up! sounds like you're going in the right direction, except for the final drive. Keep that closer to stock. I know you have small tires, but we found that 4.0FD is best,
Last edited by TheShodan; 05-20-2012 at 02:07 PM.
05-20-2012, 04:35 PM
#5
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
Thanks! It's always great to get constructive criticism from knowledgeable sources.
05-20-2012, 04:41 PM
#6
Re: Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
The issue with the final drive is that even with the largest tires I can get...which I can't get any more, are 215/50-13's. at 70mph the engine turns at 3300 rpm, which is ok. However, my next set will be 195/45-13's which will turn about 3600 rpm at 70 mph. My redline is about 8750 rpm
05-20-2012, 05:16 PM
#7
Re: Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
Maybe you can solve the intercooler issue by using a small water to air heat exchanger kit like this one:
http://www.votionspeed.com/servlet/t...ater-to/Detail
Looks like there may be enough room to mount the small heat exchanger (radiator) in front of the turbo, then put the intercooler above the intake manifold.
http://www.votionspeed.com/servlet/t...ater-to/Detail
Looks like there may be enough room to mount the small heat exchanger (radiator) in front of the turbo, then put the intercooler above the intake manifold.
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05-21-2012, 03:20 AM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
Wow, 12x12 is really pretty small....that may be an option. I'll mention this as an option. I'm really so anti-leak of anything so I tend to want to eliminate things that could leak...as long as it doesn't interfere with reliability or longevity in any way. That's why I'm pretty set on the GR28RS, which is bit oil and liquid cooled.
The ShoDan says that with my mild state of tune that an oil cooler may not be required or the Moroso oil pan....I'm ok with that.
Oil coolers have almost always been an instant addition to me...but I come entirely from an air-cooled motorcycle background and have never had a water cooled bike. Air cooled bikes from my era would bury an oil temp gauge and cook the engine so I tend to think of cooling over almost anything.
I always used A/N fittings with braided stainless steel lines as an oil leak was deadly to the engine and possibly to you, if it got on the rear tire.
Boosted_D thank you for your suggestion.
The ShoDan says that with my mild state of tune that an oil cooler may not be required or the Moroso oil pan....I'm ok with that.
Oil coolers have almost always been an instant addition to me...but I come entirely from an air-cooled motorcycle background and have never had a water cooled bike. Air cooled bikes from my era would bury an oil temp gauge and cook the engine so I tend to think of cooling over almost anything.
I always used A/N fittings with braided stainless steel lines as an oil leak was deadly to the engine and possibly to you, if it got on the rear tire.
Boosted_D thank you for your suggestion.
05-21-2012, 05:00 AM
#9
Re: Got my newbe list together, scheduling the install
Wow, 12x12 is really pretty small....that may be an option. I'll mention this as an option. I'm really so anti-leak of anything so I tend to want to eliminate things that could leak...as long as it doesn't interfere with reliability or longevity in any way. That's why I'm pretty set on the GR28RS, which is bit oil and liquid cooled.
The ShoDan says that with my mild state of tune that an oil cooler may not be required or the Moroso oil pan....I'm ok with that.
Oil coolers have almost always been an instant addition to me...but I come entirely from an air-cooled motorcycle background and have never had a water cooled bike. Air cooled bikes from my era would bury an oil temp gauge and cook the engine so I tend to think of cooling over almost anything.
I always used A/N fittings with braided stainless steel lines as an oil leak was deadly to the engine and possibly to you, if it got on the rear tire.
Boosted_D thank you for your suggestion.
The ShoDan says that with my mild state of tune that an oil cooler may not be required or the Moroso oil pan....I'm ok with that.
Oil coolers have almost always been an instant addition to me...but I come entirely from an air-cooled motorcycle background and have never had a water cooled bike. Air cooled bikes from my era would bury an oil temp gauge and cook the engine so I tend to think of cooling over almost anything.
I always used A/N fittings with braided stainless steel lines as an oil leak was deadly to the engine and possibly to you, if it got on the rear tire.
Boosted_D thank you for your suggestion.
Actually if you can squeeze the 12 x 12 radiator in there, this would be the way to go man, it's more efficient at cooling than an air to air, especially where you were going to put it, even with a scoop. The size of air to air you are going to fit in there MAYBE ok with a good scoop for 300 hp, which I know is your goal, but this air to water system is good for 3 times that much power, which means you are gauranteed to have a good intercooler setup.
Yeah it does have water/coolant in it, which I suppose could leak some how, but if it's installed properly it wont.
Oh and if you do go this way, and you have to mount the radiator directly if front of the turbo, I would suggest wiring the fan to always be on when the car is running, and put a turbo blanket on the turbine, and heat wrap the downpipe, this will help keep the intercooler set up nice and cold.
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