Chicken build
Re: Chicken build
Once again. Pissing contest..Not really worried about it.
I'm looking at ALL of the components together, not just ONE item. The oil cooler, higher capacity pan, lines, etc for extra items, does have an impact on the amount of oil that the oem gear can regulate. Its not the largest factor, but it is a factor.
We agree on this, (I even stated it) what are you bitching about now? Even I said that with my "too many words".
IT IS known by those of us that's had a nice shattered pump that at the least it looks like a particle board when it was in 30 different pieces. "sinistering" or not, it definitely was the NOT the same material as the Toda one. Toda keeps their manufacturing process quiet for whatever reason. Call Misano Motorsports and complain to them if you wish. But those of us who have used it have been doing so for a bit over 10 years on average, so.. that's on you.
Apparently so, or they wouldn't have been business since the early 70s and build all the engines that are used by Formula Nippon or part for Ferrari. Again, bitch to them if it doesn't seem to your standards. We've just seen it work quite well. I mean, fine, don't get it. So no one can protect their own secrets anymore? But, that's another story entirely
Yes. The ProDrive is one example of one that has indeed done that, but it turns out that it was do to the materials that they were using. (This is not the same ProDrive company used by the WRC, BTW). So, yes, material does matter
No one said you should get it. Remember, this wasn't an endorsement or "sale" like you try to put on me all the time. This is something that we circuit racers used as a solution to keep the gear from shattering. Again, its purpose wasn't to increase oil VOLUME or PRESSURE, just a more durable piece. Check a few of the H-T references from about 2003-2005 when it came to pump gears. You'll notice the people needing them were not drag racers, but oil cooler users
My previous of the engine being only at 60-65psi at cold start or WOT meant that a higher flowing pump was warranted, (i.e. such as the Endyn modified oil pump, or a higher flowing pump gear, not specifically the TODA piece
Aww.. now you're just being angry again 
..I never said I knew everything..But I guess i've noticed as much as you like to dissect my ideas to the core you're still not coming up with a better idea instead of complaining so much, you'd have more enjoyment on the forum yourself. Start doing that and I'll be glad to discuss things with you. I never said I was right "all the time". But I don't see many people running air-to-air oil coolers, plus turbo, plus higher capacity pan PLUS additional sump equipment, other than myself and few guys on the Time Attack/HPDE forum.
But its ok.. I'm just hoping for good things for you.
Again let's look at what you said
I'm not twisting your words with vague references.
Your also incorrect about a larger oil pan having ANY impact on pump
requirements. The pump does not know the capacity of the system it only knows the load required to achieve the pressure set point , once the pressure is exceeded the bypass opens. The pump is INTERNALLY regulated....
I'm not twisting your words with vague references.
Your also incorrect about a larger oil pan having ANY impact on pump
requirements. The pump does not know the capacity of the system it only knows the load required to achieve the pressure set point , once the pressure is exceeded the bypass opens. The pump is INTERNALLY regulated....
It is not known how the OEM oil pump gears are manufactured, sintering is the process in which a powered metal is heated to form a liquid and then poured into a mold. Honda and many other OEM connecting rods are manufactured this way, basically cast and machined afterward. Is anyone aware if the actual manufacturing process that is used by toda?
Toda's information:
http://www.todaracingusa.com/catalog...?idCategory=19
Pretty vague if you ask me. Does Honda feel that their "material" is "high spec" is the Honda pump gear cut with a CNC?
http://www.todaracingusa.com/catalog...?idCategory=19
Pretty vague if you ask me. Does Honda feel that their "material" is "high spec" is the Honda pump gear cut with a CNC?
My previous of the engine being only at 60-65psi at cold start or WOT meant that a higher flowing pump was warranted, (i.e. such as the Endyn modified oil pump, or a higher flowing pump gear, not specifically the TODA piece
..I never said I knew everything..But I guess i've noticed as much as you like to dissect my ideas to the core you're still not coming up with a better idea instead of complaining so much, you'd have more enjoyment on the forum yourself. Start doing that and I'll be glad to discuss things with you. I never said I was right "all the time". But I don't see many people running air-to-air oil coolers, plus turbo, plus higher capacity pan PLUS additional sump equipment, other than myself and few guys on the Time Attack/HPDE forum. But its ok.. I'm just hoping for good things for you.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,957
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From: nothing is real unless it is observed
Re: Chicken build
Once again. Pissing contest..Not really worried about it.
I'm looking at ALL of the components together, not just ONE item. The oil cooler, higher capacity pan, lines, etc for extra items, does have an impact on the amount of oil that the oem gear can regulate. Its not the largest factor, but it is a factor.
We agree on this, (I even stated it) what are you bitching about now? Even I said that with my "too many words".
IT IS known by those of us that's had a nice shattered pump that at the least it looks like a particle board when it was in 30 different pieces. "sinistering" or not, it definitely was the NOT the same material as the Toda one. Toda keeps their manufacturing process quiet for whatever reason. Call Misano Motorsports and complain to them if you wish. But those of us who have used it have been doing so for a bit over 10 years on average, so.. that's on you.
Apparently so, or they wouldn't have been business since the early 70s and build all the engines that are used by Formula Nippon or part for Ferrari. Again, bitch to them if it doesn't seem to your standards. We've just seen it work quite well. I mean, fine, don't get it. So no one can protect their own secrets anymore? But, that's another story entirely
Yes. The ProDrive is one example of one that has indeed done that, but it turns out that it was do to the materials that they were using. (This is not the same ProDrive company used by the WRC, BTW). So, yes, material does matter
No one said you should get it. Remember, this wasn't an endorsement or "sale" like you try to put on me all the time. This is something that we circuit racers used as a solution to keep the gear from shattering. Again, its purpose wasn't to increase oil VOLUME or PRESSURE, just a more durable piece. Check a few of the H-T references from about 2003-2005 when it came to pump gears. You'll notice the people needing them were not drag racers, but oil cooler users
My previous of the engine being only at 60-65psi at cold start or WOT meant that a higher flowing pump was warranted, (i.e. such as the Endyn modified oil pump, or a higher flowing pump gear, not specifically the TODA piece
Aww.. now you're just being angry again..I never said I knew everything..But I guess i've noticed as much as you like to dissect my ideas to the core you're still not coming up with a better idea instead of complaining so much, you'd have more enjoyment on the forum yourself. Start doing that and I'll be glad to discuss things with you. I never said I was right "all the time". But I don't see many people running air-to-air oil coolers, plus turbo, plus higher capacity pan PLUS additional sump equipment, other than myself and few guys on the Time Attack/HPDE forum.
But its ok.. I'm just hoping for good things for you.
I'm looking at ALL of the components together, not just ONE item. The oil cooler, higher capacity pan, lines, etc for extra items, does have an impact on the amount of oil that the oem gear can regulate. Its not the largest factor, but it is a factor.
We agree on this, (I even stated it) what are you bitching about now? Even I said that with my "too many words".
IT IS known by those of us that's had a nice shattered pump that at the least it looks like a particle board when it was in 30 different pieces. "sinistering" or not, it definitely was the NOT the same material as the Toda one. Toda keeps their manufacturing process quiet for whatever reason. Call Misano Motorsports and complain to them if you wish. But those of us who have used it have been doing so for a bit over 10 years on average, so.. that's on you.
Apparently so, or they wouldn't have been business since the early 70s and build all the engines that are used by Formula Nippon or part for Ferrari. Again, bitch to them if it doesn't seem to your standards. We've just seen it work quite well. I mean, fine, don't get it. So no one can protect their own secrets anymore? But, that's another story entirely
Yes. The ProDrive is one example of one that has indeed done that, but it turns out that it was do to the materials that they were using. (This is not the same ProDrive company used by the WRC, BTW). So, yes, material does matter
No one said you should get it. Remember, this wasn't an endorsement or "sale" like you try to put on me all the time. This is something that we circuit racers used as a solution to keep the gear from shattering. Again, its purpose wasn't to increase oil VOLUME or PRESSURE, just a more durable piece. Check a few of the H-T references from about 2003-2005 when it came to pump gears. You'll notice the people needing them were not drag racers, but oil cooler users
My previous of the engine being only at 60-65psi at cold start or WOT meant that a higher flowing pump was warranted, (i.e. such as the Endyn modified oil pump, or a higher flowing pump gear, not specifically the TODA piece
Aww.. now you're just being angry again
..I never said I knew everything..But I guess i've noticed as much as you like to dissect my ideas to the core you're still not coming up with a better idea instead of complaining so much, you'd have more enjoyment on the forum yourself. Start doing that and I'll be glad to discuss things with you. I never said I was right "all the time". But I don't see many people running air-to-air oil coolers, plus turbo, plus higher capacity pan PLUS additional sump equipment, other than myself and few guys on the Time Attack/HPDE forum. But its ok.. I'm just hoping for good things for you.
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Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 812
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From: Montreal
Re: Chicken build
Natural Aspirations is right about having a larger oil pan having ANY impact on the pump requirement, although an external oil cooler will create an additional volume demand that the OEM pump can largely supply if the oil cooler is properly sized. A larger volume of oil is not harder on the pump, even if you had a 100gal tank. (Assuming the oil pickup tube is the same length)
The biggest killer of oil pump is the improper alignment of the oil pump gear itself versus the crank. Also, high RPM, harmonics, oil starvation and cavitation as Natural Aspirations said.
The biggest killer of oil pump is the improper alignment of the oil pump gear itself versus the crank. Also, high RPM, harmonics, oil starvation and cavitation as Natural Aspirations said.
Last edited by Flr Power; Feb 12, 2014 at 09:25 AM.
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From: SE, PA, usa
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From: Granada Hills, Ca, USA
Re: Chicken build
Re: Chicken build
No. I still recommend them in many regards. I just didn't list it based upon the needs of the person and their ability to get the camshafts to to do what he wanted. I go by a person-to-person basis.
Re: Chicken build
Air-to-air oil coolers, yes. Many discussions of the oil pump and its ability to withstand those additional stresses stem from that.
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Re: Chicken build
Was having trouble installing a full blown dual hanger setup w/ 2 walbro 400 pumps.
Eventually got it by unbolting the hangers with fuel pumps on them, sticking them in the tank then re bolting them back on to the cap.
After doing so I realized the dual hanger kit I have is for eg/Ek. (The cap has a different bolt pattern). FAIL.
I'm going to attempt to get a eg tank and see if I can get it to work on a DA.
Eventually got it by unbolting the hangers with fuel pumps on them, sticking them in the tank then re bolting them back on to the cap.
After doing so I realized the dual hanger kit I have is for eg/Ek. (The cap has a different bolt pattern). FAIL.
I'm going to attempt to get a eg tank and see if I can get it to work on a DA.
Who is Mr Robot?
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From: ATL - Where the Pimps and Players dwell
Re: Chicken build
looking at the various OEM Honda pumps I have in front of me, it doesn't appear that the OEM gear is sintered metal. it just doesn't have the same finished appearance after machining that sintered metal does (even when the powder is liquified it can solidify a little porous in places, at least from my experience with the metal and finish machining sintered parts at the machine shop)
what I've found to kill stock pumps quick is improper pump alignment in relation to crank and the gears position in its housing. I've really only found this to be a factor on motors that have been align honed for stronger main studs or whatever reason.
also running lines that are too long or too large of a diameter combined with an oil cooler with a core that's too large taxes the stock pump quite a bit.
even with an upgraded gear and a ported pump/oil gallies you're still limited by what the pump housing casting can move in terms of oil volume. the only truly reliable way around this is to implement a dry sump oiling system. this however, is out of the realm of possibility or even practicality for most Honda owners.
what I've found to kill stock pumps quick is improper pump alignment in relation to crank and the gears position in its housing. I've really only found this to be a factor on motors that have been align honed for stronger main studs or whatever reason.
also running lines that are too long or too large of a diameter combined with an oil cooler with a core that's too large taxes the stock pump quite a bit.
even with an upgraded gear and a ported pump/oil gallies you're still limited by what the pump housing casting can move in terms of oil volume. the only truly reliable way around this is to implement a dry sump oiling system. this however, is out of the realm of possibility or even practicality for most Honda owners.
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From: nothing is real unless it is observed
Re: Chicken build
Can you please explain how this taxes the oil pump? Does running large fuel lines or a large fuel rail tax a fuel pump?
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Re: Chicken build
Ordered a s300 - tuner view interface.
Payed extra $10 for faster shipping.
It said it would be here February 24/25. (3 day shipping)
Called them on march 3rd wondering where is my product.
Apparently it was out of stock but they have to now and will ship now.
I doubt it was out of stock but if it really was then why wasn't I informed by call, email, website, telegram, smoke signals, ANYTHING.
I almost positive that if I hadn't called them it wouldn't have been shipped at that exact moment.
I'm probably overreacting but if a business takes my money I expect to receive my product in a timely matter or to be informed of any mishaps
Payed extra $10 for faster shipping.
It said it would be here February 24/25. (3 day shipping)
Called them on march 3rd wondering where is my product.
Apparently it was out of stock but they have to now and will ship now.
I doubt it was out of stock but if it really was then why wasn't I informed by call, email, website, telegram, smoke signals, ANYTHING.
I almost positive that if I hadn't called them it wouldn't have been shipped at that exact moment.
I'm probably overreacting but if a business takes my money I expect to receive my product in a timely matter or to be informed of any mishaps
Wow yeah I feel ya. I hate when they don't keep you updated. Its hard to find a good vendor with good customer service... they're usually good when they first start their business then they get lazy as they get established
Last edited by ballistic1350; Mar 4, 2014 at 08:19 AM.
Re: Chicken build
That is rough. I will say though, there are a lot of GOOD vendors on HT. The marketplace here has a lot of good service. I bought a couple parts ($600+ each) and they all came with 2-3 day shipping and excellent customer service. That was from 3 different vendors. You may want to shop around here next time.