Chicken build
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Who is Mr Robot?
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From: ATL - Where the Pimps and Players dwell
Re: Chicken build
OP, I hope you had the mains align honed for those main studs. the extra clamping force as a tendency to distort the mains causing all sorts of destructive issues.
as far as porting, it would show some improvement but not much, with a 700hp goal it ultimately comes down to turbo size and the camshaft profile. b series heads are already very efficient and flow very well. most people find out the camshaft is what limits their power levels... after all if you can't get air in and out of the engine you won't make power.
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From: Bournemouth, U.K
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enough with the oil pump thread jacking, if you want to know about oil pumps either search or make a new thread and please stop cluttering his build thread before I have to delete posts and take extra action.... please?
OP, I hope you had the mains align honed for those main studs. the extra clamping force as a tendency to distort the mains causing all sorts of destructive issues.
as far as porting, it would show some improvement but not much, with a 700hp goal it ultimately comes down to turbo size and the camshaft profile. b series heads are already very efficient and flow very well. most people find out the camshaft is what limits their power levels... after all if you can't get air in and out of the engine you won't make power.
OP, I hope you had the mains align honed for those main studs. the extra clamping force as a tendency to distort the mains causing all sorts of destructive issues.
as far as porting, it would show some improvement but not much, with a 700hp goal it ultimately comes down to turbo size and the camshaft profile. b series heads are already very efficient and flow very well. most people find out the camshaft is what limits their power levels... after all if you can't get air in and out of the engine you won't make power.
Yes sir
I made sure of that.
Just got the block done and paid for today.
It's spiffy.
Who is Mr Robot?
iTrader: (2)
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From: ATL - Where the Pimps and Players dwell
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From: Bournemouth, U.K
Re: Chicken build
No you just being a big time honda tech celebrity with an ego bigger than you own head, trying to discredit what anyone one else says which you do not agree with then going on to try and make them look like an idiot. Well done e thug. Go ask those guys what they ran in their outlaw car, chances are they will say pro 1's, even still a **** ton of people have gone a whole bunch further than 720whp with those cams. I not clogging up this thread with any more bs if you want to chat about it more pm me.
Re: Chicken build
No you just being a big time honda tech celebrity with an ego bigger than you own head, trying to discredit what anyone one else says which you do not agree with then going on to try and make them look like an idiot. Well done e thug. Go ask those guys what they ran in their outlaw car, chances are they will say pro 1's, even still a **** ton of people have gone a whole bunch further than 720whp with those cams. I not clogging up this thread with any more bs if you want to chat about it more pm me.
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Re: Chicken build
What is going to determine if I need to upgrade my oil pump.
Right now it's just oem. I don't really want to send it in for modification but I will if I have to.
I'm assuming its determined by how high I'm revving
Right now it's just oem. I don't really want to send it in for modification but I will if I have to.
I'm assuming its determined by how high I'm revving
Re: Chicken build
For this build, it doesn't look like anything is necessary. OEM oil pump with no modifications is fine.
Who is Mr Robot?
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From: ATL - Where the Pimps and Players dwell
Re: Chicken build
alright guys, can we keep this thread and debate civil?
Mac (TheShodan) always has good intentions when he posts giving advice. he doesn't really sugar coat his replies since he's basically saying what needs to be said how it needs to be said
you just have to understand Mac and his sense of humor
so can we please get along before I have to start deleting posts or the thead, or handing out infractions and temp bans
pretty please?
Mac (TheShodan) always has good intentions when he posts giving advice. he doesn't really sugar coat his replies since he's basically saying what needs to be said how it needs to be said
you just have to understand Mac and his sense of humor
so can we please get along before I have to start deleting posts or the thead, or handing out infractions and temp bans
pretty please?
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Joined: Jul 2004
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From: nothing is real unless it is observed
Re: Chicken build
Not necessarily. Although many oem pumps get to about 75-80psi of oil pressure, which is quite common, the use of an upgraded pump or pump gear would mainly be used if you're getting below safe oil pressure levels (about 60-75psi) while adding additional equipment that both need adequate oil supply (such as oil coolers with turbochargers), different cylinder head components that have higher oil requirements (such as roller rockers, or some cylilnder head modifications with a specific camshaft type) or any other area in which oil supply may be reduced in a key area.
For this build, it doesn't look like anything is necessary. OEM oil pump with no modifications is fine.
For this build, it doesn't look like anything is necessary. OEM oil pump with no modifications is fine.
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,957
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From: nothing is real unless it is observed
Re: Chicken build
alright guys, can we keep this thread and debate civil?
Mac (TheShodan) always has good intentions when he posts giving advice. he doesn't really sugar coat his replies since he's basically saying what needs to be said how it needs to be said
you just have to understand Mac and his sense of humor
so can we please get along before I have to start deleting posts or the thead, or handing out infractions and temp bans
pretty please?
Mac (TheShodan) always has good intentions when he posts giving advice. he doesn't really sugar coat his replies since he's basically saying what needs to be said how it needs to be said
you just have to understand Mac and his sense of humor
so can we please get along before I have to start deleting posts or the thead, or handing out infractions and temp bans
pretty please?
Does getting along require following the flock or are the few of us who actually build motors and independently test parts allowed to object? Clearly there is an underlying group that is more about patting each other on the back than any growth or "Tech"
Re: Chicken build
The original OEM oil pump gear is made from a very fine powdered metal. (if I remember correctly, it was called "sinistered" metal; like particle board is to wood). This type of metal is put into a mold and and pressed into its proper shape to bind the material together in the shape of the oil pump gear that is used. What I've found in higher endurance racing Honda applications that have multiple added components that stress the oil system, such as turbochargers, WITH air-to-air oil coolers at the same time, tend to destroy the OEM pump gear because of the additional volume of oil that's circulating within the system at higher than average rpm speeds (Like 9500 rpms + for extended periods of time) when used with other oil-required components.
Much of this is not experienced by drag racers, who, although may experience higher rpms, do it for very brief periods of time, and don't run oil coolers that run several additional feet of oil lines through a cooler towards the front of the car. The purpose of the gear is for more durability and to allow the increased volume of oil that engine system now possesses to pass through it more reliably. But it was not designed to create higher oil pressures within the system.
Here's an example of one shattered from a friend of mine at Mid-America
Remember, when adding something like an air-to-air oil cooler, you're easily adding about 1.4-2 quarts of additional oil that MUST circulate through the engine (this is the average amount not counting for any higher capacity oil pans or sumps). Add that with 30-40 minute sessions going over 9500rpms with these components, and the OEM gear is stressing out.
An example is where LOWLUDE22 also lost his oil pump gear when taking his 2.0 Litre to over 9800rpms when tuning at T1R Development, the crank walked into the oil pump, which the gear imploded. He replaced the pump, switched to a Toda Gear, and all is well.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...3017676&page=5
Now most would say that the cause of such a failure of the OEM pump gear would be more in line with using a lightened crank pulley, (like an N1 or other modified crank pulley), bad harmonics of the engine (from not being balanced) or other phenomenon; and they are not wrong, as that is why TODA RACING originally made them. Like in Lowlude's case.
But when you're using a larger overall volume of oil in the system with the addition of parts that were not originally designed for the honda engine, Higher "FLOW" of oil is not really the underlying issue to concern oneself with when it comes to the pump gear. The use of the gear more of a safety insurance feature, and less of a "modification" to make POWAA...
The TODA Gear is CNC'd machined from billet aluminum (I admit, I didn't analyze which specific grade that their using, but I've never seen one destroyed in 15 years).
Here's the TODA RACING one.
Yes, the gear is expensive to what most are used to, and its an "old school" approach. But what happens is when you use sumps or higher flowing pumps like the Endyn Modified OEM pump is that it raises overall oil pressure; which can be good, but it raises oil pressure everywhere within the engine, which may not be so good for the turbocharger, because now you have to worry even more about proper oil pressure regulation into the oil inlet of the turbo. This is why the use of a oil pump gear with a stronger material like the ones used by TODA would be more ideal for those that combine sustained higher rpms, turbocharging, AND the use of an Air-to-air oil cooler is more optimal; without having to worry about further restricting or regulating the oil going into the turbo.
I've had soo many people send me turbochargers to inspect and rebuild because they overpressurized their turbocharger, thinking that the they destroyed the oil sealing ring, or that they just got a bad unit. When I ask if they've modified their oil pump with shims or used an electric sump, they usually say , "yeah.. is that a problem? I got oil pressure to go up to about 100psi!". That's when I know they didn't really kill the turbo; it just needed to be better regulated.
For the majority of the people on H-T that are turbocharged and NOT running an air-to-air oil cooler, OEM is fine, because they don't fit within the criteria. The Endyn modified pump is another option, as long as the gear is changed. But for most here, as stated.. OEM is fine.
Sorry for the book. It was the only way to explain it without ambiguity.
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From: nothing is real unless it is observed
Re: Chicken build
I'll humor you considering you'll try and **** all over it anyway. The answer is they DON'T raise oil pressure or increase oil flow, that's not the point of the TODA oil pump gears. (Or ProDrive gears when they were still around)
The original OEM oil pump gear is made from a very fine powdered metal. (if I remember correctly, it was called "sinistered" metal; like particle board is to wood). This type of metal is put into a mold and and pressed into its proper shape to bind the material together in the shape of the oil pump gear that is used. What I've found in higher endurance racing Honda applications that have multiple added components that stress the oil system, such as turbochargers, WITH air-to-air oil coolers at the same time, tend to destroy the OEM pump gear because of the additional volume of oil that's circulating within the system at higher than average rpm speeds (Like 9500 rpms + for extended periods of time) when used with other oil-required components.
Much of this is not experienced by drag racers, who, although may experience higher rpms, do it for very brief periods of time, and don't run oil coolers that run several additional feet of oil lines through a cooler towards the front of the car. The purpose of the gear is for more durability and to allow the increased volume of oil that engine system now possesses to pass through it more reliably. But it was not designed to create higher oil pressures within the system.
Here's an example of one shattered from a friend of mine at Mid-America
Remember, when adding something like an air-to-air oil cooler, you're easily adding about 1.4-2 quarts of additional oil that MUST circulate through the engine (this is the average amount not counting for any higher capacity oil pans or sumps). Add that with 30-40 minute sessions going over 9500rpms with these components, and the OEM gear is stressing out.
An example is where LOWLUDE22 also lost his oil pump gear when taking his 2.0 Litre to over 9800rpms when tuning at T1R Development, the crank walked into the oil pump, which the gear imploded. He replaced the pump, switched to a Toda Gear, and all is well.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...3017676&page=5
Now most would say that the cause of such a failure of the OEM pump gear would be more in line with using a lightened crank pulley, (like an N1 or other modified crank pulley), bad harmonics of the engine (from not being balanced) or other phenomenon; and they are not wrong, as that is why TODA RACING originally made them. Like in Lowlude's case.
But when you're using a larger overall volume of oil in the system with the addition of parts that were not originally designed for the honda engine, Higher "FLOW" of oil is not really the underlying issue to concern oneself with when it comes to the pump gear. The use of the gear more of a safety insurance feature, and less of a "modification" to make POWAA...
The TODA Gear is CNC'd machined from billet aluminum (I admit, I didn't analyze which specific grade that their using, but I've never seen one destroyed in 15 years).
Here's the TODA RACING one.
Yes, the gear is expensive to what most are used to, and its an "old school" approach. But what happens is when you use sumps or higher flowing pumps like the Endyn Modified OEM pump is that it raises overall oil pressure; which can be good, but it raises oil pressure everywhere within the engine, which may not be so good for the turbocharger, because now you have to worry even more about proper oil pressure regulation into the oil inlet of the turbo. This is why the use of a oil pump gear with a stronger material like the ones used by TODA would be more ideal for those that combine sustained higher rpms, turbocharging, AND the use of an Air-to-air oil cooler is more optimal; without having to worry about further restricting or regulating the oil going into the turbo.
I've had soo many people send me turbochargers to inspect and rebuild because they overpressurized their turbocharger, thinking that the they destroyed the oil sealing ring, or that they just got a bad unit. When I ask if they've modified their oil pump with shims or used an electric sump, they usually say , "yeah.. is that a problem? I got oil pressure to go up to about 100psi!". That's when I know they didn't really kill the turbo; it just needed to be better regulated.
For the majority of the people on H-T that are turbocharged and NOT running an air-to-air oil cooler, OEM is fine, because they don't fit within the criteria. The Endyn modified pump is another option, as long as the gear is changed. But for most here, as stated.. OEM is fine.
Sorry for the book. It was the only way to explain it without ambiguity.
The original OEM oil pump gear is made from a very fine powdered metal. (if I remember correctly, it was called "sinistered" metal; like particle board is to wood). This type of metal is put into a mold and and pressed into its proper shape to bind the material together in the shape of the oil pump gear that is used. What I've found in higher endurance racing Honda applications that have multiple added components that stress the oil system, such as turbochargers, WITH air-to-air oil coolers at the same time, tend to destroy the OEM pump gear because of the additional volume of oil that's circulating within the system at higher than average rpm speeds (Like 9500 rpms + for extended periods of time) when used with other oil-required components.
Much of this is not experienced by drag racers, who, although may experience higher rpms, do it for very brief periods of time, and don't run oil coolers that run several additional feet of oil lines through a cooler towards the front of the car. The purpose of the gear is for more durability and to allow the increased volume of oil that engine system now possesses to pass through it more reliably. But it was not designed to create higher oil pressures within the system.
Here's an example of one shattered from a friend of mine at Mid-America
Remember, when adding something like an air-to-air oil cooler, you're easily adding about 1.4-2 quarts of additional oil that MUST circulate through the engine (this is the average amount not counting for any higher capacity oil pans or sumps). Add that with 30-40 minute sessions going over 9500rpms with these components, and the OEM gear is stressing out.
An example is where LOWLUDE22 also lost his oil pump gear when taking his 2.0 Litre to over 9800rpms when tuning at T1R Development, the crank walked into the oil pump, which the gear imploded. He replaced the pump, switched to a Toda Gear, and all is well.
https://honda-tech.com/forums/showth...3017676&page=5
Now most would say that the cause of such a failure of the OEM pump gear would be more in line with using a lightened crank pulley, (like an N1 or other modified crank pulley), bad harmonics of the engine (from not being balanced) or other phenomenon; and they are not wrong, as that is why TODA RACING originally made them. Like in Lowlude's case.
But when you're using a larger overall volume of oil in the system with the addition of parts that were not originally designed for the honda engine, Higher "FLOW" of oil is not really the underlying issue to concern oneself with when it comes to the pump gear. The use of the gear more of a safety insurance feature, and less of a "modification" to make POWAA...
The TODA Gear is CNC'd machined from billet aluminum (I admit, I didn't analyze which specific grade that their using, but I've never seen one destroyed in 15 years).
Here's the TODA RACING one.
Yes, the gear is expensive to what most are used to, and its an "old school" approach. But what happens is when you use sumps or higher flowing pumps like the Endyn Modified OEM pump is that it raises overall oil pressure; which can be good, but it raises oil pressure everywhere within the engine, which may not be so good for the turbocharger, because now you have to worry even more about proper oil pressure regulation into the oil inlet of the turbo. This is why the use of a oil pump gear with a stronger material like the ones used by TODA would be more ideal for those that combine sustained higher rpms, turbocharging, AND the use of an Air-to-air oil cooler is more optimal; without having to worry about further restricting or regulating the oil going into the turbo.
I've had soo many people send me turbochargers to inspect and rebuild because they overpressurized their turbocharger, thinking that the they destroyed the oil sealing ring, or that they just got a bad unit. When I ask if they've modified their oil pump with shims or used an electric sump, they usually say , "yeah.. is that a problem? I got oil pressure to go up to about 100psi!". That's when I know they didn't really kill the turbo; it just needed to be better regulated.
For the majority of the people on H-T that are turbocharged and NOT running an air-to-air oil cooler, OEM is fine, because they don't fit within the criteria. The Endyn modified pump is another option, as long as the gear is changed. But for most here, as stated.. OEM is fine.
Sorry for the book. It was the only way to explain it without ambiguity.
Not necessarily. Although many oem pumps get to about 75-80psi of oil pressure, which is quite common, the use of an upgraded pump or pump gear would mainly be used if you're getting below safe oil pressure levels (about 60-75psi) while adding additional equipment that both need adequate oil supply (such as oil coolers with turbochargers), different cylinder head components that have higher oil requirements (such as roller rockers, or some cylilnder head modifications with a specific camshaft type) or any other area in which oil supply may be reduced in a key area.
For this build, it doesn't look like anything is necessary. OEM oil pump with no modifications is fine.
For this build, it doesn't look like anything is necessary. OEM oil pump with no modifications is fine.
Your also incorrect about a larger oil pan having ANY impact on pump
requirements. The pump does not know the capacity of the system it only knows the load required to achieve the pressure set point , once the pressure is exceeded the bypass opens. The pump is INTERNALLY regulated....
What DOES kill oil pumps is RPM, harmonics, oil starvation and cavitation.
It is not known how the OEM oil pump gears are manufactured, sintering is the process in which a powered metal is heated to form a liquid and then poured into a mold. Honda and many other OEM connecting rods are manufactured this way, basically cast and machined afterward. Is anyone aware if the actual manufacturing process that is used by toda?
Toda's information:
http://www.todaracingusa.com/catalog...?idCategory=19
Made from high spec material and machined by CNC, to give you improved high-speed reliability. Standard Honda oil pumps are made from sintered alloy, this is fine for standard use, but for high performance applications, reliability is questionable.
In the end I do not disagree that the Toda pump is likely a better pump than a mass produced OEM pump, but there are many documented failures of aftermarket pump gear as well.
Just because something is expensive and shiny does not make it better.
Just because you have a lot to say does not make your information accurate.
