Kelly.

a few friends and i were discussing this a few days ago, i just wanted to know what some of the experts on here think.

for the sake of arguments:

most any honda motos can handle 8 psi. does this means most any honda can handle a 80 shot?

what about 10 psi and a 100 shot....

i know there are alot of variables, just wanted to see what people think.

btw this all came about cuz i want to run a 100 shot on my f22b1 (accord ex <-- for the dohc/b series only guys ).
i say it would be able to handle 10 psi, why not a 100 shot.

if you agree/disagree please put why you feel the way you do.
any insight on this would be great. thanks

System-7

I'm thinking it an hold 80shot, but 8psi may be the same power but the issue is the timing of engagement. The turbo produces this power progressively, but the NOS(yes NOS!) is too instant. which I think me me unsafe. Someone correct me.

Kelly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by System-7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'm thinking it an hold 80shot, but 8psi may be the same power but the issue is the timing of engagement. The turbo produces this power progressively, but the NOS(yes NOS!) is too instant. which I think me me unsafe. Someone correct me. </TD></TR></TABLE>

that is a good point, but any n2o controller (jacobs/nx/etc/etc) would fix this problem.

also detonation doesnt normally happen while the turbo is spooling (or does it?), i thought it happened at full boost (or when n2o is sprayin). to fix this (one of the ways) is to retard timing, which could be done with a msd btm.

thanks for the reply,

anyone else?

baphomet

Why don't you compare horse power levels? Saying an 80 shot is equivalent to 8 psi is complete non sense. 8 psi could be ANY horse power level depending on several things, esp. size of the turbo, and efficiency (same with inter-cooler), and tune.

Now since most people go by the 300whp stock block rule, I would say an 80 shot, properly tuned would be fine. I am going to spray 100 on my stock b16a2 which should give my roughly 260 crank hp. But I don't know anything about f22s so......


Modified by slashDEVslashNULL at 10:44 AM 1/9/2004

quikB18B

Well psi is irrelative, 8 psi from a small turbo is alot different than 8 psi from a big turbo.

Heres my .02 most hondas with stock motor can only handle about a 75 shot without fuel upgrades and forged internals.

Wheras these days were seeing more and more 300-350+ hp on stock motors with Turbo

My guess is the tuning, tuning capabilites just arent as detailed with Nos as it is with Boost.

I mean most bolt ons turbo kits will add about 100 hp.

Example stock gsr 155
Gsr DragRevhard kit 7-8 psi 250-260

but then you have a 75 shot of nos which brings the power to just under 75 hp.

Example my friend dynoed 153-155 with his stock gsr

gsr with 75 shot plate kit = 217

Maybe im getting off topic but ive alwasy wondered exactly why stock motors handle boost better than Nos?

but back to original topic you cant compare 8 psi to 80 shot you need to use hp figures

t3to4e

nice explationation

p0gi

I think it probably has something to do with the fact the nitrous comes in full blast where as a turbo is more progressive. Maybe you could use a progressive nitrous controller and achieve the same results as a turbo.

Boltz

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by p0gi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it probably has something to do with the fact the nitrous comes in full blast where as a turbo is more progressive. Maybe you could use a progressive nitrous controller and achieve the same results as a turbo. </TD></TR></TABLE>

nitrous is inconsistent

to say that you are comparing 8psi on any turbo to 80 shot of wet/dry/dp nitrous is absurd... i think you need to research the topic a little more before you ask such a broad questing like that

Bailhatch

It's awesome when that kind of redneck/street thought process find you on the internet when you could just step out the door and get it face to face. I can only imagine the conversation that spawned that post and i'm proud to add to it

PreIudeSI

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Bailhatch &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It's awesome when that kind of redneck/street thought process find you on the internet when you could just step out the door and get it face to face. I can only imagine the conversation that spawned that post and i'm proud to add to it </TD></TR></TABLE>

me no speekie dee eengrish!

swlabhot

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by p0gi &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think it probably has something to do with the fact the nitrous comes in full blast where as a turbo is more progressive. Maybe you could use a progressive nitrous controller and achieve the same results as a turbo. </TD></TR></TABLE>

For 75hp and above shots I would not even bother using it without N2O progressive controller. a) You will be wasting $$ as it will all go up in smoke, b) You fully filled bottle would not last half as long, c) Your engine would like you more with one.

Going back to the 8psi=80 shot? Erm....NO. Chalk=Cheese?
For na cars you would only normally get 1/2-3/4 hp of the shot of actual power. For turbo however the power is magnified and will often get more hp than the actual rated shot.

Kelly.

ok sorry maybe the 80 shot to 8psi is a bad way to compare it.
but i have read on here (your beloved Honda-tech) that a general rule of thumb is 1 psi=~9 whp.

i am not retarded, i know that psi isnt the same on all turbos that why i said ---&gt;
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i know there are alot of variables, just wanted to see what people think.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

ok, how about this..
you say a 80 will net you ~60 whp.. lets say a 100 shot will net you ~75 whp, why would this not work, but on the other hand people say you can boost 10 psi on a stock block?

im not tryin to be a dick.
im sorry if im not as smart as all of you, but instead of giving me answer with NO knowledge in it, maybe you could tell me why i cant do it?
my question wasnt is 8psi the same with every turbo? was it?

just looking for some help, thats all.

thanks to the people that helped.
kelly

rev-speed

DO A TWO STAGE KT
40 SHOT FOGGER
50 SHOT DIRECT.
THAT WAY ITS NOT SO AGGRESIVE
AND U STILL GET
THE POWER U WANT.

SYD

these 2 would be very hard to compare ...remember that the nitrous shot/hp rating will differ depending on type of kit ,timing pulled or added, bottle pressure,jetting and the tune of the motor itself...just like turbo size/efficiancy, timing, tune ,rpm ...etc...i see some people saying "100 shot will give u approx 80 hp" isnt true theres so many factors to your hp outcome..with either one..its funny to see such vague statements..





Modified by bruceleeroy at 2:08 AM 1/1/2004

VTC_CiViC

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bruceleeroy &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">these 2 would be very hard to compare ...remember that the nitrous shot/hp rating will differ depending on type of kit ,timing pulled or added, bottle pressure,jetting and the tune of the motor itself...just like turbo size/efficiancy, timing, tune ,rpm ...etc...i see some people saying "100 shot will give u approx 80 hp" isnt true theres so many facters to your hp outcome..with either one..its funny to see such vague statements..


Modified by bruceleeroy at 1:24 AM 1/1/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

As was already said, nitrous by nature is inconsistent.

SYD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTC_CiViC &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

As was already said, nitrous by nature is inconsistent.</TD></TR></TABLE>

uh not really once u have the right combonation together and jetted/tuned correctly..nitrous can be very consistent ..just keep constant bottle pressure after that..

p0gi

how would it all go up in smoke and how would it not last half as long...that makes no sense. A progressive controller would basically pulse the solenoid so not as much nitrous would be sent it at lower rpm and gradually increase it till its fully open, so therefore you wouldnt have an additional XXX hp(or whatever torque increase that might be) slammed into the engine at one time.

Kelly.

n20 also cools the intake charge.

oh well, here is just another example how if you dont have 4000 posts you cant get a decent answer from anyone.
ill just keep using this place for research, and not try to learn anything.

thanks again for nothing honda-tech

xtal

Nitrous is not inconsistant if properly installed and maintained. In my experience it is the most reliable way to add power to a stock engine. I have never seen a properly installed and tuned nitrous system cause bottom end engine damage. The failure mode is almost always melted valves. The IAT is so low detonation is rare. The failure mode for turbos is almost always piston damage caused by detonation due to high IAT or bad A/F.

You can't compare a nitrous jet to a turbo compressor output directly, because they're apples and oranges. Even comparing flow rates would be too variable because of intake temperatures and the differences in the exhaust systems. Turbos are progressive power by nature, and the integral of the HP curve you get vs. nitrous is different. Opening the solenoids with no ramp up is hard on the engine, but you don't need much of a ramp to get to speed very quickly.

Can a 8psi turbo equate to a 80hp shot of nitrous? Sure. Can it be less? Sure. Can it be more? Also sure. There's not enough information. Perhaps this explains some of the hostile responses.


Modified by xtal at 11:37 PM 1/1/2004

SYD

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtal &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nitrous is not inconsistant if properly installed and maintained. In my experience it is the most reliable way to add power to a stock engine. I have never seen a properly installed and tuned nitrous system cause bottom end engine damage. The failure mode is almost always melted valves. The IAT is so low detonation is rare. The failure mode for turbos is almost always piston damage caused by detonation due to high IAT or bad A/F.

You can't compare a nitrous jet to a turbo compressor output directly, because they're apples and oranges. Even comparing flow rates would be too variable because of intake temperatures and the differences in the exhaust systems. Turbos are progressive power by nature, and the integral of the HP curve you get vs. nitrous is different. Opening the solenoids with no ramp up is hard on the engine, but you don't need much of a ramp to get to speed very quickly.

Can a 8psi turbo equate to a 80hp shot of nitrous? Sure. Can it be less? Sure. Can it be more? Also sure. There's not enough information. Perhaps this explains some of the hostile responses. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Kelly.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xtal &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Nitrous is not inconsistant if properly installed and maintained. In my experience it is the most reliable way to add power to a stock engine. I have never seen a properly installed and tuned nitrous system cause bottom end engine damage. The failure mode is almost always melted valves. The IAT is so low detonation is rare. The failure mode for turbos is almost always piston damage caused by detonation due to high IAT or bad A/F.

You can't compare a nitrous jet to a turbo compressor output directly, because they're apples and oranges. Even comparing flow rates would be too variable because of intake temperatures and the differences in the exhaust systems. Turbos are progressive power by nature, and the integral of the HP curve you get vs. nitrous is different. Opening the solenoids with no ramp up is hard on the engine, but you don't need much of a ramp to get to speed very quickly.

Can a 8psi turbo equate to a 80hp shot of nitrous? Sure. Can it be less? Sure. Can it be more? Also sure. There's not enough information. Perhaps this explains some of the hostile responses.


Modified by xtal at 11:37 PM 1/1/2004</TD></TR></TABLE>

holy ****! someone helped...

thanks alot xtal, its nice to see someone take the time and give a answer backed up with some reason.
so would you say that a stock f22 could handle a 100 shot (i know it will handle it, but for how long)
with your knowledge how realiable would a 100 shot on a stock f22b1 be?
what else could i add to help with realiablity? (i run a 75 shot now, so most of the stuff i might already have)
any other info you can think to add, please do, it may help someone else out too.


thanks again for the help

ion_four

The relationship where Xpsi creates 10*X hp, is artificial, and related to the size and efficiency of your average 4cyl motor. For example, if one adds 8psi of boost to a 5.0liter Rustang engine, you will gain much more than 80hp. 8psi on a large efficient engine will produce more than 80hp and less on a very small engine, such as a 1.0liter Suzuki motor.

On the other hand, an "80 shot" is supposedly metering out enough N2O in order to burn 80hp worth of fuel, regardless of the size of the engine. The only time this would change is through inconsistency in the nozzle sizing or pressure of the N2O.

In addition, the "CFM" that a turbo "flows" does NOT make a huge difference in power output, when reasonable sized turbos are compared. The difference between a straight t3 40trim and a much larger T3/T4 (whatever trim) is only going to be a few percent, at moderate boost levels, such as 8psi.

So, your question is moot, unless you are talking about a specific engin and a specific turbo.

::EDIT:: It seems you are talking about a 'typical' honda motor, so I would have to agree and say they are comparable, if properly tuned, since the psi/hp relationship is fairly consistent on our engines.

xtal

100 shot is pushing it on a stock honda anything.. direct port, progressive controller, get some ignition retard on there and get it tuned. Run more water in your coolant mix. Colder plugs. It's been done.. I wouldn't go past 80 stock, or at least not unless you were prepared for the concequences. Then again, you should always be prepared to "upgrade".

Anyway, nothing more to add here.