when i say stages...that require 2 bottles are the really big shots.not this 100 1st stage and 50 2nd.if i run 2 stages you can bet on me GOING BIG...and to do it right.i would use a dedicated fuel line for each set up w/it's own pump and adj. reg.
that way you can and could tune each stage like you wanted it.


there are 2 ways that you can change the nitrous from gas to liquid.1 is drop the temp to minus 100 degrees.which would be very hard to do you and i both know that.so our other option is to heat it.as the tempature of the nitrous goes up,the pressure required to keep it in a liquid state also goes up.


the 550 mark is when the oxygen is free to react w/the fuel.

yes cylinder temps will be way down when going w/manufacturers specs on the nitrous.then if you want to up the annie....just up the nitrous jet YOU ALREADY HAVE THE FUEL....but people have a tendancy to change both thinking it is better that way...plus they do not under stand that CONSTANT FUEL PRESSURE IS A MAJOR PLAYER ALSO...after all how can you make the power if there is not any fuel to feed the fire.


ALL I CAN SAY IS.....YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD.......w/the timing issue.

dam my feelings are hurt...nah just kidding.yeah i like ole cubish and there is no doubt he will go faster.well have you covered there also.just misunder stood which one you were talking about.here is a pic of it.





that is about as close as your gonna get.but i would like to attach the nitrous solinoid and the fuel solinoid to the very end of the distribution block w/a straight
fitting...i think it would help a little


yes you are right about this turning into a REALLY GOOD THREAD....it's nice to sit and chat w/some one whether your learning or the teacher,plus i like helping people w/it...because that is how i learned.

harv

 

Yeah I know a few guys running 350+HP stages that run a bottle for each stage. I really prefer to keep it to one bottle if at all possible, personally. I'm looking at running a pair of 350hp stages with a variable dry stage for the third and im still just using a single 15lb bottle. I will pretty rarely run more than the first stage other than for bragging rights and actual heads up races. It really works just fine either way but I just like the idea of having the same nitrous pressure for all three stages. My Big Boy bottles have a .325" orifice and I run them upside down with no siphon tube so restriction on the bottle side is pretty much nonexistant.

There is a third way to keep gaseous nitrous as a liquid for our purposes. The "push system". Granted they are banned in pretty much all forms of heads up racing, but worth mentioning. I always liked the concept of it due to the extreme high pressures which eliminates much of the compressability of the nitrous oxide and provides us with something a lot closer to Laminar flow than we see in any other type of system.

As for oxygen reacting with the fuel at 550, thats because of those pesky molecular bonds breaking down.


As far as making power with no fuel to feed the fire? It can be done, just not for very long hehe. Aluminum makes a great fuel for a little while lol. Pretty expensive way to go racing though. Thats why pure o2 injection never caught on. Once all the hydrocarbons are oxidized that 1200* aluminum starts looking awful tasty to those free roaming o2 molecules.

Do you bench flow your tunes before use or do you just do all of your tuning at the track?

 

i take it your a v8 guy.....350 oooweeeeeee...let me ride.the "push system"
is just for street since it is not allowed anywhere else.he he...


what do you think about the idea of propane w/nitrous.i know it works w/diesel pretty good.


sorry to say.but i am not set up like you are.i tune on the street and track.i start very small and READ EVERY PLUG....i also like to be able to look at fuel pressure when i hit the button.to see what she is doing.if she drops.it's time to turn up the fuel pressure to where she will remain constant for the amount of nitrous i am using.then i go to town from that.


that's why i like running dedicated lines for my nitrous set ups along w/an extra pumps and a adj. reg instead of changing those dam jets....i can bump up the fuel pressure....saves me alot of time.


harv

by the way what is your name?

 

Harv, my name's Dean. I go by "The Hog" on most of the other forums im on.

Yeah im one of them dumbestic boys hehe, I got on this forum mainly because there seems to be more potential to sell my wares in the "sport compact" world as of now and I need to read up on the lingo hehe. I'm trying to change my car over to 25.5 chassis specs and get in on this 10.5" tire racing thats become so popular lately.

I always have to mention the push system, I just like the idea. I always wanted to try to design an oringed piston or some kind of bladder for the inside of the nitrous bottle to keep the nitrous and nitrogen from getting mixed together. But those systems got banned before they every caught on.

Propane/Nitrous is one of my pet projects that I just cant seem to find the time to play with more. Its a very cool combo. Both gasses have very similar properties and offer a combo that requires virtually no igntion retard requirement, with no risk of fuel fallout (aka puddling). The only concern I have is that if the system ever backfires its going to leave a mushroom cloud lol.

Bench flowing a system is actually a lot easier than it sounds. It is an excellent way to dial a tune in almost dead on before you ever hit the track. I usually like to dial them in at the 5.5-6:1 N/F range. I really like doing it first because I can get a solid nitrous flow number for the system and I can individually quantify the ammount of fuel coming out of each nozzle (which of course also gives you a total fuel flow number).

As for the fuel pressure issue, that is one thing I have noticed with return style fuel systems, they often take a dip in pressure and take a few tenths to recover. All of my systems run off deadhead regulators at around 7-10psi which pretty much keeps pressure rock solid as soon as the system activates.

When I get this pos car of mine back together it's going to be a bit of a different story. I'm making the swap to EFI *gasp* so im going to have to deal with the return style issues. Luckily there are some pretty good quality deadhead regulators out there now that will work with 40ish PSI of pressure coming in on them, but that means i have to say goodbye to my $20 Holley regulators.

 

well i am into just personal satisfaction ...and feeling the rush off both the spray and the blower .if i can get my power to the ground a lo-9 maybe 8's if i can hook and no that is not in the 1/8


i really think this set up i am doing now is gonna really rock the HOUSE? i know the tq is gonna be thru the roof.probably in the neighbor hood of lo to mid 600's .it is just a bragging right i guess.there is no way that can be applied to the street or track...well scratch that on the track unless i plan to run 28's.....which is definitely out of the question.


hey nothing wrong w/being a domestic guy.....you just don't find alot that are friendly...and get very pissed when they get there *** literally tore up by a 4 banger on roids so to speak.


i like tuning them were i make them say my NAME......hhhhhhaaaaaarrrrrrvvvv.i think you get the picture..hahahahaha

if i wanted to take the time to flow test a set up i could.but there is nobody around here has the guts to go that big on a 4 banger....just me so far.plus it is alot of fun when you start out small and just keep getting bigger.although the fun really begins around 150+.

well dean it was nice to have met you on here maybe we can do buisness one day.


harv

yep when you go to efi.....it's not cheap any more.he he he..welcome to the world of imports.oh by the way.what are you offering to the import world your own nitrous set ups....let me know? or just pm me.

 

This thread has been one of the top 10 threads on information that Ive readn in the last month. Thanks everyone for the contributions. Its nice to actually read and be learning, doesnt happen so much around here like it used to...


thanks again, I enjoyed this topic immensely.

Blaze

 

Harv I know what you mean about the feel of boost and nitrous. Around here we call that "peanut butter n' jelly", the two are just meant to be together.

I guess I shouldn't classify myself as a "domestic" guy, i'm more of a "go fast for cheap" guy. I have respect for anything that goes fast without having to have the best of everything. IMO anyone with money can pay someone to build them a fast car. I really think that is where everything is heading these days.

I remember a few years back when my car was a daily driver and finally cracked a 9.97 at 137 on a 180HP tune on pump gas it was the baddest car around. Now just a few years later we have cars driving to the track, running 8.70's and driving home.

I'm really not going to be breaking the bank on this efi deal. I just scored a set of 8 new 1600cc injectors for $250 (gotta love ebay) which will be a touch big but not too bad for what im doing. Another couple hundred for my bling bling Megasquirt setup and a few more bones for the throttle body. It shouldn't cost me a whole lot more than the $1100 carb I was going to have to buy so I figured I might as well give her a whirl.

As for what I offer for the import world, its really the same stuff I have for the v8 world, just cut in half with different tunes. Right now I offer single nozzle and single and multi-stage direct port systems using what I consider "standard" nitrous equipment. Billet stainless soft plume (or annular) nozzles, stainless lines, anodized distribution blocks, and 200 or 400HP capable solenoids. All of which come with tunes that I have developed myself through wet flow sessions and mathematical calculations. Aparently I need to adjust my advertised power levels though. My "75 shot" just made a little over 110FWHP on a junkyard VW. Really the stuff I have now is not much different than NOS or NX other than it is 100% made in the US and a good chunk cheaper.

I am hoping that I will have a working prototype of my "Symmetry" system on the dyno by the beginning of the new year. This system will be quite a bit different from all the rest of the cookie cutter systems on the market. This system is completely area matched throughout, there is only one change in area and that is the nitrous solenoid itself (which is an axial design solenoid with a massive .188" orifice). Past the solenoid the nitrous will experience no changes in area, every passage is completely smooth. All lines are bent to be equal length with thermally insulated and area matched equal flow distribution blocks. All this fun stuff feeds into individual jetless nozzles for nitrous and fuel that are designed to have a minimal intrusion into the intake runner for maximum NA airflow.

The goal of this system is to deliver an increased quantity of liquid nitrous oxide into the runner which will increase the overall volumetric efficiency of the engine and yield more power. The big gains I am suspecting are going to be on the torque curve, but HP should also pick up substantially since max torque always occurs at max VE. Additionally im hoping to have the system to offer superior fuel atomization by seperating the nitrous and fuel so the fuel has a chance to atomize into the airstream free of disruption from the nitrous. The whole idea of trying to atomize fuel with a stream of liquid nitrous seems idiotic to me. Simple, functional, but idiotic. Its kind of like throwing a bunch of gravel at a brick wall trying to get it to "atomize". The last thing fuel is going to do at -60* is atomize.

Lastly (and my excuse if all of the above makes no power gains on the dyno lol) is the fact my nozzles are very small and will fit alongside the fuel injector on most intakes offering the ability to run a dual stage system with a pair of nozzles on each side of the injector.

I'm just finishing up the drawings and dimensions for the nozzles so hopefully i'll have them on the CNC machine in the next month. The distribution blocks are just a matter of me getting off my *** and buying a nice drill press lol.

 

yeah i remember when i had no money"like now" and ate jam sandwiches.
i jammed 2 pieces of bread together and ate them bad boys....heheheh


at one time i was going to go domestic.i was going to do a 98 hatch on tube
chassis w/a blower motor and direct port.but my buddy backed out at the last minute on selling his motor to me.


awh the good ole days.i remember when i first got into this ****.i had a track car "hatch back" how could you guess right.this thing was so dam lite you could pick the rear of the car up w/no problem.well at least i could.this car weighed 1560 w/o driver and 1800 w/driver.i was spraying some where close to 200.the reason i said that is,because i drilled the jets out.i had 26x10x15's on the front and skinnies on the back.

this car pulled a 1.5 60's and trapped at 104 in the 1/8.....the v8 guys came down and said what the hell do you have in it that dam thing.i said a 4 banger and of course i had to show it to them.from that moment on i have been hooked...untill i rode in a turbo'd car that would blow'em off in 5th gear just rolling into it."that's when the idea's were like girl friends they were coming and going.


then my baby got put on the drawing table and she is almost complete.my deck plated set up w/a big *** turbo and pro race fogger.i am really proud of this set up.because i have come up w/everything on my own and have saved my self a ton of money in the process.

tom. i will be setting the mock up down in the car...so i will have pics posted maybe tom.....but definitely by the week end.will also have the turbo set up mounted except the i/c....hell i cain't wait.


jetless nozzels...sounds interesting?1 question tho? what are you going to do when you want to up the annie.will you have different nozzels.

your kit will basically be like the nx kit then correct...except no jets.i may have mis read.but will go back and check.atomization is another key player for making the power w/the fuel.


well i to have access to a cnc machine and if you need my help just give me a call or pm for my #.as far as getting the parts made for you at a relative low cost.

you lucky dam dog you got 8 1600cc injs. for 250.i won't say what i paid for mine.but it's alot more than 250.

i am also gonna paly around w/propane in the next few months and i will be sure to let you know how that goes.the only thing i do not like about it.is having a pressurized fuel system.


also here is another thing i am gonna try here in the next couple of weeks.spraying methanol w/the nitrous on a 4 cylinder.i am just finding out more about the fuel first.i do know it is corrisive and that it burns alot colder.just have to find a way to not make it so dam corrosive on the motor.surely there is a way.


harv


Modified by 1700anddroping at 1:25 AM 10/25/2005

 

Nice thread

I used to be a nitrous guy myself, great stuff!

 

def 10's if the tranny holds...lol!

 

i can say that at outputs of 350whp and more on b-series two bottle helps alot (daily driven street car). we've done that with stock sleeves in crvtecs and the difference in back to back runs is outrageous even when the bottle pressure is allowed to return between runs. all our systems are dry insomuch as the n2o is direct port two stage, but the fuel is added via additional pulse width at the fuel injectors.

 

Sounds like you have quite the badass combo coming out soon. Doing it yourself is the only way to go IMO. There is a big difference between "knowing" something and actually "learning" something. Like you, I also built my car from the ground up by myself. I like it that way, then I can say "I built this" instead of "I bought this".

As for my systems, yes you will have to change nozzles to change power levels. Im hoping it will help force you import boys to get away from that nasty habbit of changing jets all the time. If you watch much professional racing, you'll notice that the almost never change jets in the nitrous system. They varry nitrous and fuel pressure to keep their tunes dialed in, but they don't change the jetting. The thing is, one good tune is far more useful than a dozen shitty tunes. And thats exactly the difference between what im doing and what you get from NOS.

As for my system being kinda like NX? The only simalarity is that both systems are made in the US, but thats about it. NX also uses the same generic solenoids that everyone else uses, their nozzles are just slightly varried copies of the origional nozzles that everyone copies now, and the rest of their stuff is more of a marketing ploy than a performance innovation. That's my biggest problem with NX, they are in it purely for the money, not to make racers faster. They will produce anything that sells, regardless of its benefit or detriment. Their "nitrous rails" are a wonderful example of that mentality.

My systems will have axial solenoids for the nitrous side (same ol boring *** fuel solenoid that everyone uses) which is something you don't see on any of the current nitrous systems on the market. My systems will be plumbed entirely with 3/16" hard line, not the soft line that NX loves to use so much (that stuff expands under pressure and would throw off my whole 'symmetrical' concept). My distribution block will have true equal distribution and won't suffer from the flaws in current designs. Fuel and Nitrous get their own seperate nozzles so that we are not trying to atomize them together. All in all this thing will be quite a bit different from most everything out there...... weather or not it works remains to be seen lol.

 

WOW this turned out to be a GREAT thread guys!!!! Thank You Harv and Tom!!!!!

PLS Archive!!

 

sick car and setup

give props cause its a different route..... also this a great thread with a bunch of info

 

ours has been out awhile, but i think you have a better idea for the diy guy who just wants to put it in an go tune. ours requires tuning efi expertise that is beyond all but a handfull of tuners. hrt has a similar setup built in to his software... we just had to do it the hard way since hondata didn't offer it years ago when we needed it my point is that this market just needs to see the reality of how safe n20 can be. and how fun

 

wow holy sh*t i just had a brain melt down from all this info im just glad HT has all these guys on here

 

i will give some more input on this stuff when i get back from the gym.


harv


dean you mis under stood.i was meaning how nx has there design set up at the fuel rail.that is the biggest dam pos kit out there.now when you come in from the side w/both nozzels w/no jets...now that is SOMETHING YOU DON'T SEE...i cain't wait for the results.when nx came out w/this fuel rail kit.....awh helll i am not even gonna go there....just a waste of dam time talking about that kit.

 

I've gotta admit though, the NX rail setup does look cool. Stupid by function, but cool looking hehe. Honestly there are a lot of gimmicks out there like that. Dual bottles, super high flow valves, NOS's Pro Race distribution blocks, carbon fiber bottles, "high flow" distribution blocks etc. My rule of thumb, if you don't see it used in pro street, outlaw street, or Pro mod... it't not worth owning.

As for increasing pulse width for fuel enrichment, I really like the concept. I remember when guys like Pat Musi and Mike Moran started doing that in the mid 90's, it took people a while to figure out what was going on. When you get down to it, it really isn't that complicated at all just a bit of math. If you are flowing 5.5lbs/min of nitrous, you add 1lb a min of fuel and hit your desired NF ratio. The thing I like best about the concept of this method is that the fuel is injected downstream of the nitrous and the change of pulsewidth is instant so we actually get fuel before the nitrous for once. That way the motor isn't *** lean for the first couple cycles like with 99% of the rest of the systems on the market. Once that detonation hysterisis starts, it does not want to stop.

 

More info! This thread is awesome

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ghostofnyc &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow holy sh*t i just had a brain melt down from all this info im just glad HT has all these guys on here</TD></TR></TABLE>

since when do ghosts have brains?

 

i see you have considered the design's benefits the other nice thing we realized after we got comfortable tuning the fuel side was with every map location in the wot area available for ignition tuning most tunes end up with almost no ignition retard on the top end (rev-wise). and a huge short coming of the one-value fuel/ignition setups like hondata's old s100/200 is this: n20 flows into the intake manifold at a constant rate while the amount captured by each power stroke is mostly dependant on the time the intake valve is open (rpm). so.... at 4000rpm twice the n2o enters the cylinder as at 8000rpm (mostly); if you add just one fuel value pulse width that gives a safe airfuel value at 4000rpm (say in the 11.5:1 range) you will be dead freakin' rich with twice the required fuel by 8000rpm.

we also hit 270whp (dynojet) with a 100% stock b16 using this system. i don't care whose system you use, if you do it right you'll make gobs of power.

on a side note, i actually cali ref'd that b16 with the kit in the car... you can not see it in the engine compartment

 

i would one day like to get into tuning the electronic part of it.just never took the time.but there's nothing like the old school way.man i wished i lived next door to pat musi.....like dean said back in the 90's was pushing the dry system and adding the fuel by increasing pulse width on the injector.....i like the idea for a RACE CAR...but not street...unless you have some kind of table or map that in can switch to and from off the bottle.


i am dropping the set up in today as we speak? so hopefully i will have pics soon.i havn't really taken a look at the inside of the pro race dist. blocks but will today?


what do you guys think about spraying meth...and no not the dam drug...heheheh?
since it produces more heat than eth.more heat means more cylinder pressure and that means more force on the crank shaft....adding up to more hp at the wheels.

but i know the people that have3 contributed in this thread already know this....but for the people who don't.you will make more power w/nitrous using methanol.but there are some other things that you have to take into consideration.bigger ports-higher compression- the list goes on.....if anyone is interested....just talk to me or dean or rms.i am sure either one will be willing to help you out.BUT YOU WILL MAKE ALOT MORE POWER W/METH OR ETH.


well off to do the mock up......


harv

 

Is this running race or pump gas?

I would guess that you couldn't run this high CR and nitrous on pump gas without massive detonation, right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by m R g S r &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

since when do ghosts have brains? </TD></TR></TABLE>

all i have to say is f*ck u bitch. bitches like u got alot of mouth but no action bring that noise to me f*ckin homo.

 

RMS, well yeah you can't just crank the pulsewidth up a notch and call her good, you are right there. Thats why my examply says increase fuel 1lb/min not increase the pulsewidt by X. There is a firmware out there for table swapping on the megasquirt but so far it only supports 1 additional table, i'm hoping these guys will get off their asses (as if ive got room to talk lol) and create some firmware that supports at least 4 tables total.

Harv, yeah I miss those old days. Needless to say though, 90% of the nitrous users in the winners circle are all running jetted wet systems setup by guys like Prock, Fulton, etc. Those setups just plain work and they are super simple. Someitmes KISS is the best way to go. I, of course, being Mr. Bling have to go EFI and add a little voodoo to my setup hehe. We'll see if I can't get this pig to start crackin some high 7's.

As for Nitrous and Alcohol, its been done plenty but it has its drawbacks. Most guys that run Alcohol and nitrous actually use a second fuel cell and inject gasoline with the nitrous out of simplicity. One problem is that your target N/F ratio is right around 2.2:1 instead of 5.5:1 so fuel requirements are huge. Doing it your way it really isn't that big of a problem since a NOS cheater fuel solenoid will still flow enough fuel to support a 200HP tuneup and you will be running an auxillary pump. For your purposes Ethanol might be a better choice. From what I have come to understand it is much less corrosive and if you blow your engine up with that system you can at least get yourself drunk with the remainder of your fuel. Methanol will give ya a good buzz too but it has that pesky side effect of going blind and dying. Hell, if you want to be real cheap (and eco friendly) run E85 lol. The boys over on turbomustangs.com just put down a little over 1000RWHP on that junk.

Last time I met up with Butch Schrier we were BSing about Nitromethane and nitrous oxide. I guess back in the 70's they used to use nitrous to tame down the troublesome cylinders on the top fuel cars to keep them together. Any fuel that is "tammed down" by nitrous oxide is cool in my book. Though it is completely pointless I just have to give it a whirl sometime. From the sound of it a N/F ratio of 1:1 is just about right.