AFAIK, only cheap rubbers would deteriorate with ethanol. High-end Dupont stuff like Viton (B & F) will work fine, but Viton is made with fluorine. Teflon is primarly fluorine-based material, and lots of braided stainless turbing is made with a teflon liner. Fluorine is so reactive that once it creates a bond, there's very little that will break it and cause deterioration.

You'd have to ask the company if they use rubber (what type/grade) or teflon lining. As for the fittings, AN fittings that have the screw-on/nipple deal should be fine for the <100psi you see in the fuel system. Crimping is needed if you're trying to test the 2000+ psi rating of most braided hoses.

 

For tuning on E85, what has anybody seen as far as reading spark plugs for detonation?

We just tried this in my friend's talon (best of 9.76 at 137.4mph on C16). We turned the boost down from high 30's to about 29-30psi and pulled a little timing. It still felt really strong here. It seems like it was pulling carbon out of the chambers and messing with my plug reading due to that. Every time I pulled a plug I would see more and more clean aluminum on the piston where it was all carbon covered when we started playing with it. During this time, weird stuff was sticking on the plugs, but it would clean off the porcelain as it was driven - which doesn't happen with detonation speckles on gas.

Does detonation on E85 put pepper on the plugs just like gas does? Or, has nobody run into detonation on E85 yet?

Kevin

 

what kind of wideband-lambda is suitable for ethanol? for example this one?:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors...94732

and the OEM fuel pump gets damaged after a while, I know because an friend of me has converted to E85, and the pump lost function.

The Walbro pumps doesn´t work with E85 on the long run, doesn't they?

I´m considering to buy a Walbro pump and 440cc incjectors in combination with the E85 conversion set and a wideband-lambda-controlled PLX.

E85 costs in Germany now after tax-increase 0,83 Cent/litre. Petrol e.g. 1,25 EUR.

But costs is not the only reason for me to change, I want more HP for my DOHC Crx

 

Well we can add another car to the list. I just filled my tank with straight E70 (winter blend) and am getting tuned ASAP. I will have to get a retune for the summer blend I assume? Any recomendations for a noob to the E - fuel world?

My setup is

1992 Prelude Si 4ws - H22a4 (1999 Prelude Engine)
Basically stock - only aftermarket I/H/E
ODB1 running a chipped p28

Thanks for the help.

Also if anyone happens to have a good basemap for this setup please let me know. Thanks again.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CivicDXRaceCar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Here's a really good link off the MegaSquirt site. Lot's of good technical information and conversions as always.(Even has a flow rate calculator)
http://www.megasquirt.info/flexfuel.htm

May want to add this to the list.

Here's one pertaining to how the wideband sensor operates specifically to ethanol.
http://www.megasquirt.info/PWC/
(look at links at bottom)

Modified by CivicDXRaceCar at 4:54 PM 12/2/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>

added, sorry it took so long
been busy, like really busy.

 

One more on E85. I converted mine the other night. Got it idling/revving in the garage then went out for a street tune. Did one WOT pass in 3rd from 30-90 on a lonely country highway to get a good datalog and got busted.

Cop pulled me over and arrested me for "street racing." Spent the night in jail.

for E85 tho!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Seraph0 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One more on E85. I converted mine the other night. Got it idling/revving in the garage then went out for a street tune. Did one WOT pass in 3rd from 30-90 on a lonely country highway to get a good datalog and got busted.

Cop pulled me over and arrested me for "street racing." Spent the night in jail.

for E85 tho!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'd keep the datalog and edit the vss info to show you were only doing 15 -&gt; 60mph in 2nd. Then get a good lawyer.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by mike1114 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For the most part, righ now, E85 is based on processing Corn, Beets or other food staples.

Cellulosic ethanol is from the biodegrading of plants/animals/food and this will be the viable source of ethanol because eventually our food source will be threatened if we keep using corn, beets etc.......

And as others have said, they allow genetic cloning of plants so they can grow as much food based ethanol as they really desire.

The price will only come down in the future as it is more available and technology makes it cheaper to produce in mass.</TD></TR></TABLE>

This is true. For those who are skeptical about the efficiency of E85, more advanced options are right around the corner. Once Cellulosic ethanol if perfected we will be able to produce fuel from just about anything organic such as recycled newspapers, apple cores, roadkill, you name it. Think Mr Fusion from Back to the Future

 

just a quick thing to remember about e85 for the guys in the MW. Here in MN we go through 4 formulations of e85 throughout the year. right now (jan) the "e85" is really only 70% ethanol.

 

A little OT but, does anyone know where you can buy E98 or E100 in socal?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by batboyvaj &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just a quick thing to remember about e85 for the guys in the MW. Here in MN we go through 4 formulations of e85 throughout the year. right now (jan) the "e85" is really only 70% ethanol. </TD></TR></TABLE>

its called the winter blend.
because ethanol was a harder time igniting when it is cold outside, the add 30% gas during the winters to help with cold starts.

 

Yeah guys, thanks for the great thread.

I have been considering E85 for a while now and it seems to finally be pretty available in my area. I have a few questions about the a/f tuning though. I understand the whole lambda=1 no matter what fuel but I still need to figure out how I can read the a/f with my PLX m300 on e85.

Basically I just need to know how to read the a/f ratio. Is there some way to re calibrate the display to treat 9.7 as stoich so when it reads lambda=1 it will say 14.7 still? Or is the display useless now and I need to just use the datalogging to tune with?

I know that was very poorly written but I cant think of a better way to ask the question since I am a bit confused right now.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHCD16y8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah guys, thanks for the great thread.

I have been considering E85 for a while now and it seems to finally be pretty available in my area. I have a few questions about the a/f tuning though. I understand the whole lambda=1 no matter what fuel but I still need to figure out how I can read the a/f with my PLX m300 on e85.

Basically I just need to know how to read the a/f ratio. Is there some way to re calibrate the display to treat 9.7 as stoich so when it reads lambda=1 it will say 14.7 still? Or is the display useless now and I need to just use the datalogging to tune with?

I know that was very poorly written but I cant think of a better way to ask the question since I am a bit confused right now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I'm not familar with the plX M300, but I'm sure there is some type of adjustment on the display. I know there is on my Aem Wideband. You'll just have find your instruction manual and see how to adjust it.

As far as the readout goes. Once it's readjusted for E85, it'll read just like if it was on gasoline.


I really am excited about this stuff. I'm gonna try my hardest to have my car tuned on E85 for pump gas. There's a pump about 15-20 mins from my house. Just finding someone that I trust to tune is my only problem. Well, it's not a problem if I wanna make a road trip down to texas(let Tony1 tune it). Which I'm leaning towards anyways.. lol..


-Chad-

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHCD16y8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah guys, thanks for the great thread.

I have been considering E85 for a while now and it seems to finally be pretty available in my area. I have a few questions about the a/f tuning though. I understand the whole lambda=1 no matter what fuel but I still need to figure out how I can read the a/f with my PLX m300 on e85.

Basically I just need to know how to read the a/f ratio. Is there some way to re calibrate the display to treat 9.7 as stoich so when it reads lambda=1 it will say 14.7 still? Or is the display useless now and I need to just use the datalogging to tune with?

I know that was very poorly written but I cant think of a better way to ask the question since I am a bit confused right now.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You can't change the PLX display, but all widebands read lambda and interpret from there. So, when you're running 1 lambda, the PLX knows to sidplay 14.7.

So, jsut divide whatever number the PLX shows by 14.7 and you have your lambda.

 

It's odd, but here in Des Moines Iowa (of all places) there is only ONE station with E85 now. There were 3-4, but they all quit selling it for whatever reason.

Our new gov is ramming E85 down our throats (not that I mind) though, so I assume that will change. I only hope that we switch away from corn, it's NOT the optimal source for eth ... as you guys have already discussed. Some farmers in the area are going to switch grass to try and pioneer celulose technology... hopefully that gamble works out for them.

Also it takes a lot of resources to extract the energy from the corn, so it's a wash environmentally IMO.

Another concern I have is all the water needed, there is serious discussion here in Iowa about what this is going to do to the water table.

I just have this odd feeling the politicians are flocking to a technology that is a wee bit before it's time.

---

I'm going to be adapting a bosch -044 (keeping it in tank) to my Integra and prolly goto some 1000 or 1600cc's. Might as well buy as big as I can. Basically copying what all my DSM buddys do to run E85

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by servion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You can't change the PLX display, but all widebands read lambda and interpret from there. So, when you're running 1 lambda, the PLX knows to sidplay 14.7.

So, jsut divide whatever number the PLX shows by 14.7 and you have your lambda.</TD></TR></TABLE>

So basically if I have the PLXm300 in my car and begin tuning with e85 I will see 11.9 on my display then,
(11.9/14.7)*9.7= 7.85 which is my new a/f ratio?

So then 14.7 on the display is still stoich correct because
(14.7/14.7)*9.7=9.7
?

So basically from what I am understanding I can just use the wideband and tune exactly how I would using gas for say an 11.9 display on the gauge but in reality my a/f is actually 7.85 with e85.

So to put it simply it is basically fill it up with e85 add around 30% fuel and tune from there reading the wideband output exactly how I would with regular pump gas.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHCD16y8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So basically from what I am understanding I can just use the wideband and tune exactly how I would using gas for say an 11.9 display on the gauge but in reality my a/f is actually 7.85 with e85.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Correct.

Lambda lambda lambda!

 

Ok I understand now, the sensor reads in lambda only so when e85 is running in it stoich range the sensor sends a signal of 1 to the dispay which reads 14.7 because the gauge is calibrated for gas. So basically the gauge output is just a different reading of lambda, like if it was calibrated for some fuel that we dont even know about where stoich is 83:1, and I put e85 in there the gauge would read 83:1 at the 9.7:1 e85 stoich. The display is just an interface for the lambda signal form the sensor.

So in closing, I will be fine just putting in e85 and tuning off the PLXm300 display pretending that it is just 93 octane. I.E with the E85 in the tank and the m300 I am still looking for an 11.5-12.5:1 A/f ratio on the display under full boost, even though it is much richer in reality.


Modified by SOHCD16y8 at 5:37 PM 2/1/2007

 

Thanks for addin me up there Kelly, you ever run that thing? Curious to know

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHCD16y8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ok I understand now, the sensor reads in lambda only so when e85 is running in it stoich range the sensor sends a signal of 1 to the dispay which reads 14.7 because the gauge is calibrated for gas. So basically the gauge output is just a different reading of lambda, like if it was calibrated for some fuel that we dont even know about where stoich is 83:1, and I put e85 in there the gauge would read 83:1 at the 9.7:1 e85 stoich. The display is just an interface for the lambda signal form the sensor.

So in closing, I will be fine just putting in e85 and tuning off the PLXm300 display pretending that it is just 93 octane. I.E with the E85 in the tank and the m300 I am still looking for an 11.5-12.5:1 A/f ratio on the display under full boost, even though it is much richer in reality.


Modified by SOHCD16y8 at 5:37 PM 2/1/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>

You got the general idea... however, you may not want to tune to the same lambdas on e85 that you do on gas. So, choose what lambdas you want to tune to, and then multiply by 14.7 and that's what you're looking to see on the PLX

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by servion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You got the general idea... however, you may not want to tune to the same lambdas on e85 that you do on gas. So, choose what lambdas you want to tune to, and then multiply by 14.7 and that's what you're looking to see on the PLX </TD></TR></TABLE>

What is a safe lambda number for e85 under full boost? Around the .78 area?

Thanks alot for all the help guys, I should be up and running with the e85 once school ends and im back home again in May.

 

bump for more info

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 97hb &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Thanks for addin me up there Kelly, you ever run that thing? Curious to know </TD></TR></TABLE>

not yet,
i moved back to colorado,
so as soon as i get a job, we are gonna retune (altitude, fresh motor, fresh turbo)

the car will be ready for this season, just have to get some slicks and ill be ready.


i also updated somethings on the first page

 

I know economically it does not make sense, but can this work on a stock motor, after the fuel upgrades?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TanCar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know economically it does not make sense, but can this work on a stock motor, after the fuel upgrades?</TD></TR></TABLE>

with tungin, yes it car work on a stock motor.

e85 is alot cleaner then regular gas, so it depends on what you mean by ""economically it does not make sense""