servions last post was EXCELLENT

awesome thread! this is definitely the wave of the future. I always wonder about renewable resources though...never know when a shortage is going to occur. And if gasoline companies own this crap in any way/shape/form, then Im sure they will jack prices up to screw us all.

 

The only problem with the thread is it will get filled with shitloads of previously answered questions, even if Kelly. keeps updating the 1st post. So far, I think we have 90% of the necessary info for a DIY tuner to do an effective E85 tune with their turbo car.


BTW since ethanol is created from complex sugars, our cars could literally become rice burners As for it becoming 'mainstream' or taken over by the oil companies - it will become mainstream, not quelled by the oil barons. Its already the staple fuel in South America, and lots of places sugar cane/beats grow easily. I see it becoming even cheaper in the future, because less gas will be needed to make more fuel, and genetic engineering will be allowed on crops not meant for food. IIRC theres 3-4 better crops than corn for making ethanol, and one will outgrow corn anywhere in the USA.

 

Very informative thread. I can't wait to get tuned on a cool refreshing blend of my favorite gas, e85.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The only problem with the thread is it will get filled with shitloads of previously answered questions, even if Kelly. keeps updating the 1st post. So far, I think we have 90% of the necessary info for a DIY tuner to do an effective E85 tune with their turbo car.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

just trying to make a one stop shop for the honda-tech crowd in reguards to e85.

im sure there is alot more info out there, but for people that are interested in it strictly for hondas, id like this thread to be thier bible

plus honda-tech can always you more tech

 

good thread. I just heard somewhere the other day that they were gonna have to come out with new gas pumps that could handle the added alcohol without corrosion. this could slow down the availability a bit but hopefully not too long.

 

I'm running 120 (113 octane race gas) in a fully built H22/2300 lb. 92 hatch. Compression is 10:1 (Arias). Would I be able to continue running 16 - 17 psi with a good tune on E85?(104 octane) I'm upgrading to 980 cc Precision injectors, from 700 cc and have a Walbro 255 in tank with an aditional inline pump.
Currently making around 465 whp and 348 wtq @ 16 - 17 psi on the 120 gas.

 

Compaired to race gas, its essentially just lower octane fuel that burns cooler.

The shop I usually deal with has been doing quite a few b18's on pump gas (93), ~400whp with regular t3/t04e's. Your compression ratio is good for e85, your fuel system seems to be able to handle ~450-500whp with e85 requirements, but e85 is still a step down.

IMO E85 is just a good, cheap, high performance street gas, since a full-out race car doesn't really need that much c16. Also, 100+ octane gasoline is leaded, and leaded fuels have sorta been illegal to use on public roads for a few decades... So E85 should be used if you plan on having kids in that area, or know friends that will eventually.

 

Did a car today, stock bore/sleeve B series, 35r, 1000cc inj. 475whp at 17psi, 92% duty cycle. With 1000cc injectors, the injectors are definitely the limiting factor before the fuel. All in all, i love it!

Going to be doing the EVO i built a while back on it too, but with dual walbros and 1600's.

Forgot to mention, the civic was full 3" exhaust WITH a cat.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Did a car today, stock bore/sleeve B series, 35r, 1000cc inj. 475whp at 17psi, 92% duty cycle. With 1000cc injectors, the injectors are definitely the limiting factor before the fuel. All in all, i love it!

Going to be doing the EVO i built a while back on it too, but with dual walbros and 1600's.

Forgot to mention, the civic was full 3" exhaust WITH a cat.</TD></TR></TABLE>

NICE. E85 FTW. This stuff is looking good.

 

Im about 420whp on my car on 50% e85 and 50% 93 octane... I love it too. My injector duty cycle is 77% on my 750cc's.. But i have a VW so its a little diff

 

this should be made a sticky. Great thread, I was just talking about this with some friends and a tuner.

 

Tony-

Was this done on a fuel system that was otherwise 100% stock? If so, it is nice to know what the limiting factor is in the fuel system when going the E85 route.

 

What is 1000cc equalivant to with e85 compared to regular gasoline. 780s cc? 880s cc?? just trying to get a ball park fiugre.

 

Its basically its the hp number assumed divided by 1.3-1.5. So if 1000cc injectors can make about 650hp on gasoline they can make somewhere in the range of 433.33-500hp. So more math, if you can make 650hp with 1000cc injectors on gasoline(again, just an example) that means you can simply multiply the hp number you want times 1000/650 and it should be close enough. So using our 1.3-1.5x range you can do (1000*1.4/650)*HP number wanted with E85. These numbers should put you in the ball park.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HiProfile &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Compaired to race gas, its essentially just lower octane fuel that burns cooler.

The shop I usually deal with has been doing quite a few b18's on pump gas (93), ~400whp with regular t3/t04e's. Your compression ratio is good for e85, your fuel system seems to be able to handle ~450-500whp with e85 requirements, but e85 is still a step down.

IMO E85 is just a good, cheap, high performance street gas, since a full-out race car doesn't really need that much c16. Also, 100+ octane gasoline is leaded, and leaded fuels have sorta been illegal to use on public roads for a few decades... So E85 should be used if you plan on having kids in that area, or know friends that will eventually.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I wouldn't say that e85 is a step down, considering that you make more power with it than you do with straight gasoline It is claimed to be 105 octane, but it burns much cooler than gas....

Here's a JRSC car I tuned last summer. Same car, same day, nothing changed but the fuel and tuning, thanks to NepTune's map-switching ability he runs either fuel at will

200 degree cooler EGT's - FTW

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by servion &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">200 degree cooler EGT's - FTW</TD></TR></TABLE>

on the dyno, we were seeing my IATs drop throughout the run.
they start at ~115* (welcome to vegas ) and fell to ~ 100* by the end of the pull
this was at ~28-30 psi.

not sure how this works, but i love it

 

Honda air temp sensors almost always fall during a pull because the sensor responds very slow and it's heatsoaked at the beginning of the pull, and cools down as air starts blowing across it. Regardless, the air temp sensor is before the fuel is injected, so it wouldn't pick up the drop in temp from the alcohol.

 

More importantly, Honda IATs are mounted to the intake manifolds which are heat soaked. If you put IATs in charge pipes using that little rubber grommet thing like they use on the 99-00 Si, you can get MUCH MUCH MUCH better transient response out of the IAT, but it will significantly affect an existing tune.

 

So my question is... Who here on Honda-Tech is making the most boosted WHP using E85? I'm switching my Turbo-GSR to E85 with a big fuel system as we speak, and Servion will be tuning it on Neptune in the middle of December... We'll see what happens... I'm wondering what the limit of it is, I doubt I'll push the limit, but I'm tired of spending hundreds of dollars a month on race gas.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blundar &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">More importantly, Honda IATs are mounted to the intake manifolds which are heat soaked. If you put IATs in charge pipes using that little rubber grommet thing like they use on the 99-00 Si, you can get MUCH MUCH MUCH better transient response out of the IAT, but it will significantly affect an existing tune. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I have seen the both you and Tony state the heat soaking before. I understand the heatsoaking and it is very noticiable in datalogs. Are you both saying that it is best to put it in the charge pipe (or somewhere else. ) to keep these drastic temp changes to a minimum? (I would think this is a good idea) Or am I missing something else?

Sorry, I am hungover, about to go to an early TPS report meeting on a holiday week.....this sucks.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Honda air temp sensors almost always fall during a pull because the sensor responds very slow and it's heatsoaked at the beginning of the pull, and cools down as air starts blowing across it. Regardless, the air temp sensor is before the fuel is injected, so it wouldn't pick up the drop in temp from the alcohol.</TD></TR></TABLE>

before i switched to e85, my IATs would rise during a pull. (could have been my smaller IC though)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hondoctors &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">So my question is... Who here on Honda-Tech is making the most boosted WHP using E85? I'm switching my Turbo-GSR to E85 with a big fuel system as we speak, and Servion will be tuning it on Neptune in the middle of December... We'll see what happens... I'm wondering what the limit of it is, I doubt I'll push the limit, but I'm tired of spending hundreds of dollars a month on race gas. </TD></TR></TABLE>
i think servion tuned a lsvtec in colorado that made ~512 uncorrected on e85.
with your new setup, i think we should be able to beat that


Modified by Kelly. at 9:39 AM 11/21/2006

 

Kelly, it took a whole 1/4 pass for my IAT's to increase, a dyno pull would register a minor increase while the 1/4 pull would show a much more significant one (non-E85 related).

I have tuned a couple low 500whp hondas on e85 with 1000cc injectors and simple fuel systems before maxing them out (fuel system limited).

 

The problem with E85 for those of us that can't get it is economics. I love the performance characteristics of E85 but In order for me to make my own E85/E90 I would have to buy Lab grade ethanol at close to 5$ per gallon and then mix it with 93 octane. If it all mixes I am looking at 4.59/ gallon of fuel. How does that work out to a good idea?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turboteener &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The problem with E85 for those of us that can't get it is economics. I love the performance characteristics of E85 but In order for me to make my own E85/E90 I would have to buy Lab grade ethanol at close to 5$ per gallon and then mix it with 93 octane. If it all mixes I am looking at 4.59/ gallon of fuel. How does that work out to a good idea? </TD></TR></TABLE>

We have it at the pump locally for $2/gal Its not everywhere, but its growing.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turboteener &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The problem with E85 for those of us that can't get it is economics. I love the performance characteristics of E85 but In order for me to make my own E85/E90 I would have to buy Lab grade ethanol at close to 5$ per gallon and then mix it with 93 octane. If it all mixes I am looking at 4.59/ gallon of fuel. How does that work out to a good idea? </TD></TR></TABLE>

If you don't have it in your area yet then it's not a great idea to use/make E85. Quite a few states have 100's of E85 filling stations including Minnesota, Illinois, Colorado and people are trying to pass legislation to require 10% of all gas stations in every state carry E85. If you have a station near you that sells it that's when it can be a viable alternative to race gas.