hey guys- my boys went 6:78@205 today I said it would happen, George won the race to , might have been a all bullish final if Ara was on the other side of the ladder but unfortunatly faced each other in the semi's. Sorry I'm so damn excited I can't even go to sleep!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ben,

That's no empty offer on the photography, .. I have studio built into my home, .. and have digital so anything can be done fairly fast. My mom's side of the family where the artists and worked at ad agencys, .. my uncles were the racers.

I just may take you up on some of that then.........I looked your website too, very impressive.

As for the valve bowl thing, .. this leads me back to our other discussion about taking the guide out and making the roof flat. The guide removal along with the deeper bowl should net some significant results. I have a junker head that I'm going to do some more tests on, .. before I cut up a good S2K head.

Always a good idea......need to find me some more junkers so I can relax a bit and try new ideas......

I think there may be more to this then volume. Think about the area available to flow. This may have more to do with how the flow around the valve changes shape as lift in increased.
Years ago I cut a head open to expose the intake port but not so much as to cut the port in half.
I epoxied a plexi plate on it, put a valve in it, pulled air through it and used a small tube to deliver smoke from a smoke machine. (rock band days)
You'd be surprized what the air does as it flows around the valve and into the port.
The the air tends to form a cone around the back or down stream side of the valve.

Now think about a small block Chevy race head, .. deep valve bowl that comes strait from the bottom angle down deep, then makes a fairly sharp turn to the very flat roof. The bowl is very much in line with the center line of the valve stem to promote high lift flow.
The Honda, .. has a long sweeping bend to the valve bowl that is designed for low and mid lift flow and is not in line with the valve center line. At high lift we're asking the air to go around the valve and seat at an angle making the flow uneven, .. causing a flow loss.

Does this make sense, .. or have I been blowing too much smoke

Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, maybe you've been breathing in too much of that smoke? No just kidding.......I think you are on to something here, and I think maybe we could back up some of this theory if we do some prot velocity mapping......this is really starting to get fun, huh? Love it Love it Love it!

Hey HEAD........you guys rock that is AWESOME......great job man!
-Ben

 

CONGRATS DAVE. wonderful

 

Hey Dave, time to go to sleep! jk, great work man!

 

Portflow

http://www.portflow.com is the best value headwork.

Because he has super quality and super turn around time.

Time is money.

Now he has a flow bench. The guy is professional.

Jeff

 

Tom is good he is a pro not some hack like some of the guys selling heads now

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Portflow.

Now he has a flow bench. The guy is professional.

Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>
What did he use before?

 

You don't need a flowbench to make good heads. The guy has ported more heads than anyone I know in this business, its like routine for him.

I flowtested some of his heads, and they flow up there with the best.

Besides, I don't think Steph and a TON of other's of the worlds fastest are complaining.

I think once you do it enough times, you can repeat the quality over and over. Thats why I get a good 30+ heads a year from him I woudl say?

And I have heads from all kinds of companies. And I have flowed them too.

Jeff

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You don't need a flowbench to make good heads.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>

Hey Jeff, I gotta disagree on this one point........I'm not saying ANYTHING bad at all about your guy, infact I've seen his stuff, and it's really nice.......so let's not get a flame war going here......

My point is though.........Richard Childress Racing {Nascar guys} builds over 700 full blown racing engines every year........the have 8 flowbenches! These guys do more heads than just about anybody in the racing business, and they still flow every head, even though they are all CNC ported.......these guys do it for a reason.....
You can produce a good flowing head without a flowbench if you do enough of exactly the same thing, there's no question about that..........the problem is how do you keep up with new technology? Anyone who's ported any D, or B series heads will tell you that the new S2000 heads are a totally different animal and require totally different stuff..........that's just one example of many.....how can anyone logically expect to keep up without a flowbench?

I guess it doen't matter now since they have a bench.....I'm just making a point.......again no offense!

 

Also, if the Nascar guys want to charge like $4000-$8000 for a head port, etc, then if I am paying that, they better have 7 flowbenches.

If I pay $900, do I expect the guy to have 7 flowbenches?

Do I pay $900 and get something really good? Or pay like $2000 and get something similar, except it been on a flowbench?

Economics. We don't have 10 million dollar budgets, we have $1000 dollar budgets.

Also, time is money. And Tom pumps them out, high quality, in weeks.
You can't beat that. Also, I know alot about these subjects. Alot.

I have heads from many, many many shops, and they have all been flowbenched.

Its funny, and laughable, to see the heads who came from places who claimed to have flowbenches and superior technology get destroyed by Tom's heads and Joe allaniz's heads.

And those quality heads only takes weeks to get. Now you know why Portflow probably does more heads for Honda's than anyone in this business.

I deal with Joe Allaniz, and Portflow because they are professionals with years and years of Honda experience in port flow technology. You get MORE than you paid for with these guys.

They don't use flowbenches as "marketing tools" to bring in the business. They bring in the business because their heads are on the fastest cars in this industry.

People can talk flowbenches all day and nite. That might fool a few people into buying their stuff. Flowbenches are good for marketing. No doubt.

You buy what runs fast. And my team has that in the bag for years.

Keep it up Tom and Joe.

Jeff

 

 

You buy what runs fast. And my team has that in the bag for years.

What team is that?

 

the team of portflow, allaniz...etc

 

Just for reference, Alaniz has been using a flow bench since he opened his own business.

C_A_T

 

I know he has. But thats not why he sells alot of heads. He sells alot of heads because the fastest all motor car in the universe runs his head.

That was my point. Although, I wish I was a better writer.

Jeff

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I know he has. But thats not why he sells alot of heads. He sells alot of heads because the fastest all motor car in the universe runs his head.
That was my point. Although, I wish I was a better writer.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>

Joe's heads are great........because he developed them with a flowbench.

All I'm saying is that a Flowbench is like a dyno for cylinder heads............I know lots about tuning and I've tuned more cars than I can count, but I still use a dyno.......I've ported heads and just by looking at them you'd say they flow great.....but you'd be surpised at how much the little details make a difference.... I can tune an engine very well.......but I can tune it better on a dyno. Same goes for a flowbench......

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You don't need a flowbench to make good heads.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>

Jeff,

Sorry to chime in here, .. but you've just got no clue. You mean to tell me some dude with a grinder can redesign a cylinder head better then the multi million dollar design team at Honda, .. without using anything to test his results?

I've said this a million times, .. and here it goes again, .. **looks have nothing to do with how a cylinder head performs** These heads, and most good race heads are very sensitive. When you pay for a professionaly ported head from some one using a flow bench you are paying for them to take the time to port a little then flow, .. port a little, then flow, .. it's how a good cylinder head is tuned, .. with a flow bench.

Those who port without using a flow bench are not getting 100% of what that head has to offer.
But as you pointed out, .. YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!

Tom does nice work but I'd have to question the "quality" if they were not developed on a flowbench.


Modified by Curtis Boggs at 8:35 PM 5/6/2003

 

I some what agree with these comments, because I to, with just my knowledge of how air "should" move through a port have come up with some preety killer ports that make awsome power without the aid of a flowbench, but however this came through repetition of doing the same style head and doing dyno testing and track testing. Heads that flow good don't always run good, but using a flow bench is a awsome tool that let's you hear a good port and let's you realize what direction you are going in sooner than putting it on the car.
No offense but I think Port Flow has been doing so much business not only because tom is a knowledgeable person but also because he and allaniz have been really the only people until late who have specialized in porting import heads now there is a quite a few good people to choose from so I think we might see it level out a little, but I do think that Port Flow will probably remain "the" shop to go to maybe the next Chapman of the import world.

They don't use flowbenches as "marketing tools" to bring in the business. I don't know if you have visited your buddy allanizs' web site but he definitly uses his flow bench as a marketing tool I think he calls it the B.S. detector .

 

Let me ask a question of the other head porters here, cause I think maybe I'm missing something.

When I build a race head, .. one that I know and have done many times before. I do all the porting, sand roll or finish the ports, .. cut the valve job, .. then flow EVERY port. I then spend the next 6-10 hours going back into each port doing touch up work and getting the flow up on weak ports, .. and making them all as even as possable.

Am I the only one who flow matches all the ports??

Just by the nature of a cylinder head being cast, .. all the ports aren't the same from the factory, ( called core shift) .. so if they are all ported the same, .. they will NOT all flow the same.

Next question, .. .. am I the only one who designs my valve jobs with the flow bench then has custom cutters made?

Every last little CFM has to be found in most of the work I do. because it's going to pro level race teams or race engine builders who dyno everything, .. .. and 1 HP could win or loose a race.
If I do a Honda head for somebody, .. I'm going to treat it like I would any other race head and find every little bit I can.

What about flow ratios between the intake and exhaust? There is a bunch of power to be had by working with the flow ratio between intake and exhaust. Anybody working with this, .. and if so what are you doing?

Curtis

I can't imagine trying to do this type of work without a flow bench.

 

Per Alaniz' website:
"More appallingly, applying these techniques to modern multivalve heads may actually hurt performance - and many porters will never know it because they don't regularly flow test heads. Some don't even own a flow bench."

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Am I the only one who flow matches all the ports??

Hey Curtis, glad to have you back buddy........I think there are very few people who even test each port, let alone take the time to match them.....in reality, it comes down to economics......not every customer is gonna be willing to pay for that, so at some point we gotta compromise.......I definately try to sell this as an option to everybody, but there is always a limit to what they'll spend......still, as often as possible, we do it.

Just by the nature of a cylinder head being cast, .. all the ports aren't the same from the factory, ( called core shift) .. so if they are all ported the same, .. they will NOT all flow the same.

This is why even CNC heads are hand finished

What about flow ratios between the intake and exhaust? There is a bunch of power to be had by working with the flow ratio between intake and exhaust. Anybody working with this, .. and if so what are you doing?

I've been toying with this for a while now, and the more I play with it, the more I'm learning about the whole package......like the camshaft's relationship in all of this, and finding interesting things about how this affects BSFC and optimal injection timing during the 720 degree cycle.....we'll get into some better discussions on this in private, as I don't wanna hijack the thread with that stuff....but as a teaser......when properly cammed, an engine sometimes likes more, and at other times less I/E flow ratio and a later,and then sometimes earlier injection time......you can dial in the BSFC's and really tweak the fuel curve by tuning the ratios in conjunction with injection timing, which is important in long endurance races......just dangling the carrot though!

Curtis

I can't imagine trying to do this type of work without a flow bench.</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

Hi Ben,

Wow it sounds like you've been doing your home work on that flow bench & dyno.

I used the I/E flow ratios to pick up some power on the 1600 heads, . . and I'm now working on the 2L Formula Continental in the same way.

About flowing every port, .. yup I agree, .. some people will not pay for it. Right now most of my customers are engine builders, . . so they expect that type of work. Plus I have to admit i've been running this little race of my own, .. .. I'm trying to set the dyno HP record for each engine builder I work with. At this point in the chassis development of Drag racing I don't think very many people have used the power they've got much less need to worry about a few more.
There's much more ET in the chassis.

Curtis

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hi Ben,

Wow it sounds like you've been doing your home work on that flow bench & dyno.

I read alot too.......lots of great stuff we can learn from others......especially SAE papers and such......the engine dyno is really the only way to see most of this stuff.......too many variables on the chassis dyno......I like playing with airflow......but I LOVE playing with different combinations on the dyno!

I used the I/E flow ratios to pick up some power on the 1600 heads, . . and I'm now working on the 2L Formula Continental in the same way.

Were you finding that more or less ratio was helping, or did it matter if you changed camshaft?

About flowing every port, .. yup I agree, .. some people will not pay for it. Right now most of my customers are engine builders, . . so they expect that type of work. Plus I have to admit i've been running this little race of my own, .. .. I'm trying to set the dyno HP record for each engine builder I work with. At this point in the chassis development of Drag racing I don't think very many people have used the power they've got much less need to worry about a few more.
There's much more ET in the chassis.

That last statement is very true.........I used to think so anyway.......lately I've been scouring our data logs from recent races, and I think at the next event after we qualify and have some time to screw around I'm gonna try and find out just how hard we can hit the tires.......our 60's are good, but Kenny Tran's are really good......granted they have a bigger tire, but I have a feeling there's something else going on that I can't talk about in the open.....you can IM or cal me at the shop if you wanna know more.....I'm screening at night, so begin leaving a message....If I dont pick up, its' because I'm using the bench and didn't hear it....leave a # and I'll call back.

Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Were you finding that more or less ratio was helping, or did it matter if you changed camshaft? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Ben,

yes the cam comes into play during overlap when the exhaust is just closing and the intake is just opening. At the low lifts I make the ex port flow over 90% of the intake to help scavange the cylinder and start the intake charge going. At higher lifts I taper it off to the typical 80%
Cam timing has EVERYTHING to do with it.

I can't call right now, .. gotta get off the computer and rub Wei's feet. ;-)

Curtis

 

you can get a honda Ex port too flow 80%
of the intake @ high lift
Id have too see that one too believe it
or your intake side doesnt flow what mine do?