larry from endyn does great work if you can put up with him .

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ben,

You have an idea there regarding the angle of the port. It looks like the flow goes strait up the valve bowl and doesn't make the turn at the short turn. The problem is class rules don't allow welding or adding material to the ports. Limited to .350" lift too but the port quits at .250" to .300" lift.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>

One other thing to try is to use some texture to try and create some turbulence at the floor of the port, and hope that will break up the boundary layer there, but it does sound like the air has a nasty push across the short side..........just gotta get it to stick to that radius a bit more!

Interesting..............sounds fun from my end, but then again........I'm not trying to make a living off of it either! Good luck!

 

i've got the port flow analizer pro i thought it was made by winflow but i guess i was wrong it's made by performance trends is this what you use? what kind of seat angle are you running on the ford head, that sounds like a really neat head to work on! but right know it seems like your beating our head against the wall with it, I had an experience with a LS-1 head that would flow 298@.550 for only a second or two and just drop to 270 but was stable everywhere else and couldn't hear any turbulance to justify the lose, I love my job but sometimes it's very fustrating which is probably why I love it so much.

 

Yeah, the performance trends is the one we are all using.......

You really should try getting used to the pitot tubes and doing some velocity mapping.......it's pretty easy, and may serve to aid in finding little oddities like the LS1 heads you mentioned....... I saw something similar to that once and I ground some very small lines {or channels} in the floor of the port to try and get the turbulence along the bottom of the port to straighten out...........this resulted in a much more laminar flow throughout the port, as evidenced by the equalization of port velocity and an increase in flow........weird..
That LS1 head may be experiencing a similar problem due to the fact that it is so tall and narrow....it may have sort of an inverted column effect going on or something! I love this sport!

I love making airflow.......it's the scientific black magic!

 

Well guys, ..

I figgured out what to do about this funky port, .. .. I took the head, .. and put it back in the box, .. and started a new casting! There is SOOOOOO much core shift in these castings that some just will never flow, .. I just wish I could figgure out how to fix it. But, .. I gotta pay the rent so I'll quit messin with this crap casting and try again on a new one. !!!

I had to realise that this port will never be great, .. and this head is for a top Canadian Formula Ford team, .. so it's gotta be great.

But on the brigher side, .. .. another 1600 Ford head I'm doing for the US FF champion is just flat Kickin Butt!!

Some days are good, .. some days I'd rather work at Taco Bell.

sooo, .. you guys wanna talk about S2000 heads now???

Curtis

 

Yeah, I'm interested in seeing what others are doing with them............I've had one stock one, and one that was ported by the guys from INDY Cylinder heads......

Lets see what you think about them............haven't flowed it yet, but from what I see and from what I'm told...........they are a pretty good piece.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Some days are good, .. some days I'd rather work at Taco Bell.

sooo, .. you guys wanna talk about S2000 heads now???

Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well put my friend, well put.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah, I'm interested in seeing what others are doing with them............I've had one stock one, and one that was ported by the guys from INDY Cylinder heads......

Lets see what you think about them............haven't flowed it yet, but from what I see and from what I'm told...........they are a pretty good piece.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Indy Cylinder heads, .. interesting as I thought Indy was a mopar specialist. Their cheif engine builder Ken Lazzarow used to be the engine builder at Herb McCandless Mopar shop when I did heads for Herb in the late 80's. Used to get pallets of big block heads from Chrysler, .. burned me out for a while.

Flow the stock one and flow the ported one and let us know, .. .. I have a road race S2000 head I'm working up, .. .. I'll share what I find too.

Curtis

 

I think they did it as a special project or somehing.......because they do specialize in Mopar stuff..........

I don't have the stock head at the shop anymore, but I will be flowing the ported one soon.......

 

I have yet to see a S2000 head, I was curious if there close to a H22 head? I was also curious if you guys have seen or have flow tested any of the import heads with the guide taken out meaning ground down to make flat, I was thinking this would create a flag pole effect if you know what I mean but I have seen alot of porters doing this, I take them down a little and make the material behind the guide blend into the guide itself almost making it look like a bullet with a tail behind it. I also wanted to say thanks because I am really enjoying the dialog going on here.

 

Dave,

Regarding the valve guide, .. that's one for the flow bench, .. some heads like the guide taken out, .. others benefit from putting a trailing edge on it to shape much like an airplane wing.
With the wing shape the idea is to tuck the air back together behind the guide after it has gone around the guide. It's the turbulence on the back side of the flow that you're trying to fix. So the "knife edge" faces away from the flow and the rounded edge faces into the flow.

But every head is different, .. so try it on the flow bench.

Speaking of this kinda stuff, .. remember the problem 1600 head??
Well, .. after thinking about it I went back to the basics. THE MOST important part of a port is the bowl and the valve seat. These areas shape the flow around the valve and help form the cone of flow around the valve. Form the cone too tight to the valve and it can't make the turn into the port and around the short turn. This was the problem with the 1600 head.

The venturi shape I had under the valve seat was too small, .. making the cone tuck too close into the valve. Sooo, .. the cone was too tight and couldn't make the turn into the port. It showed up in my velocity map as no flow along the floor of the port or around the short turn. I reshaped the venturi and the valve seat and presto, .. flow is right where it belongs and the velocity map shows strong flow along the floor.

You know its all about keeping the basics in mind. Simple air flow and fuel flow engineering. The Society of Automotive Engineers has all kind of tech papers written on this stuff, .. and there are some good books out there. Hit the local book store for some aeronautics engineering books and pay attention to the sections on wing design as well as fuselage design, .. it all applies to heads.

Then once you’ve got this down, .. read the tec papers from S.A.E on fuel flow and fuel management in 4 stroke engines. The Superflow manual has a list of this stuff to read in the back, ..

From this stuff you may learn not to use crutches like Ben’s ribs in the LS1 floor, .. very bad for fuel flow.

Curtis

 

Hey Curtis.......
Congrats on that 1600 Head! That's cool...don't you just hate it when you have to go back to the basics? lol Sometimes we just get so smart that we outsmart ourselves trying to find complex answers to simple problems! Good job, I'm pretty glad to hear you didn't give up....

On that LS1 head........I knew there would be a better solution if the time and money would have permitted, and I also knew that conventional thought says that the channels would hurt fuel flow....however, I also knew that the port is very tall, and that the little injectors those engines use have a vary wide spray angle, which results in a nicely atomized fuel spray......so I was hoping that I could keep the airspeed up enough to support the fuel molecules in the airstream, and since it was such a fine spray the molecules were smaller and lighter, so I decided to go for it and give it a try......the head picked up the flow where I needed it to, and didn't suffer from any poor BSFC numbers, so that and the fact that there were no visual signs of puddling on the floor of the port made me believe that for the amount of time and money we had to work with, the port seems to be pretty decent.......I would like another shot though, to see if we could do it right.......maybe someday another one will come along?

Talk to ya soon.

 

Ben,
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On that LS1 head........I knew there would be a better solution if the time and money would have permitted</TD></TR></TABLE>

I hope you didn't take my comment the wrong way, .. .. I was trying to illustrate a point, .. not pick on your solution. But you make a more important point. We ARE in business and can only spend so much time on these things. And in your case your solution was a good solid one.

I'd be nice if every job we got had an unlimited budjet so we could do things the way we want.
But this leads back to a basic fact of head porting, .. you get what you pay for.

Ben, .. I have something to talk to you about, ... what's a good time to call you??

Anyone going to the Englishtown NHRA race????

Curtis

 

I am glad I can't spend all my time on one head I need variety and I'm also a perfectionist so I would never get anything done! and I couldn't work at taco bell because first off it makes you **** and second I would probably end up hitting on a girl that looks like she is 24 but is really 17-no good! On the LS-1 deal I would just leave it alone because how do you explaine to the customer that you dug trenches in his head because you needed to it just doesn't look good and 70%of our job is what I call the ohhh-awww factor, they really need to look good. And those heads with a 221/221 on a 114 went on a 99 C5 vette hardtop made 410hp @the rear wheels and went 11:98@122 on a radial so I don't think it hurt the performance at all!
I will definitly be at E-town I only live 20 min away. I am very excited about this weekend I have a good feeling my Bullish guys are going to drop a record this weekend.

 

I use Bill From BCE heads
http://www.bceracing.com/

 

jg pro series cylinder heads are the best

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">On the LS-1 deal I would just leave it alone because how do you explaine to the customer that you dug trenches in his head because you needed to it just doesn't look good and 70%of our job is what I call the ohhh-awww factor, they really need to look good.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dave,

Wow, .. sacrafice performence for looks in a cylinder head??? Dude, .. I'm realy sorry to hear you say that. Our job is to make more power & performence, .. looks on the inside of an engine doesn't mean squat. Some of the best performing race heads I've seen looked like a big chunk of scrap, .. welding globbed all over, .. grinding marks, .. ported but not sand rolled, ... ..
I set several IHRA Top Sportsman and Pro Stock records with heads that looked like they should be tossed for scrap. I'd simply tell the customer that the "trenches" are there to make power, .. and my job is to make as much power as I can.

While on this subject I'll spew a little rant about it. I built a great head for a local Honda guy, .. when he picked it up he didn't ask how it flowed and how much power it would make, .. he wanted to know why I didn't spend hours in the ports polishing them to look like chrome. The head was sand rolled and finished nicer then I would with a race head, .. but any good porter knows that polishing the ports to a mirror finish will HURT performence.
The guy didn't even say anything about the 23 hp he picked up on the dyno, .. just that the ports weren't polished, ..

So Dave, .. you'll be at EnglishTown, .. where can we find ya? Myself and an engine builder I work with will be there for the week end.

Curtis

 

Hay Curtis what kind of Seat and guid machine do you have? What kind of numbers have you made with stock size valves in a GSR head
thanks, BRAD

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MAX_CFM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hay Curtis what kind of Seat and guid machine do you have? What kind of numbers have you made with stock size valves in a GSR head
thanks, BRAD</TD></TR></TABLE>

Brad,
T&S and Serdi, ..... .. ... I'd have to look up the GSR numbers, ... ..

Curtis

 

Well Look them up man Yur not too far away from me.
Is that you in the picture on yur site. You look real familair
Did you ever do any development with the OLDS IRL program?

 

Ooooohh I LOVE that Serdi machine with those llive pilots.........I have a Sunnen VGS 20, which i really love, but man the serdi is nice!

 

Is Serdi what Larry had ben?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MAX_CFM &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well Look them up man Yur not too far away from me.
Is that you in the picture on yur site. You look real familair
Did you ever do any development with the OLDS IRL program?</TD></TR></TABLE>

No I didn't do the Olds IRL, .. but I'm a HUGE lover of open wheel road racing. CART, Formula 1, F3000, Formula Ford, .. I race a Formula Ford myself. Most of my current business is road racing, .. high end stuff like GT and formula cars.

Yup that's the old, balding me in the photo. You used to be with Roush??
I was a NASCAR photographer for a while. I was partners with Walter Arce and did most of the studio photography. But Arce was not too “honest” and blew the partnership in a big way, ..

If you have drag racing background I used to work at Sonney Lenord’s doing IHRA pro stock engines.

I'll get those flow numbers for you, .. what do you mean "I'm not too far away from you"???????

BTW, .. you know you can't compare flow numbers from one bench to another very well. Just like a dyno, .. the test methods effect the final number. The REAL comparison is using a bench the way they where designed to be used, .. flow development & comparison on the same bench with the same test methods.

Curtis

 

Ben,

Nice machines make the work go faster, ...

I used to do the pro stock valve jobs on a vertical mill, .. what a PAIN that was, .. but the valve jobs where as good as any Serdi machine can do today, .. .. it's the opperator not the machine.

it's funny you say you realy like the Sunnen, .. that machine is much like the T&S and as a machine to use I think I like the T&S over the Serdi, .. Serdi has good points and the Sunnen / T&S has good points. They are all very good machines for the custom work we do.

Have you bought the custom cutter design programe from Serdi??????
$600 for a programe so you can design the cutter on your computer instead of paying Serdi $100 every time you order a custom cutter, .. just so THEY can enter it in the soft ware.
If they want to sell me cutters, .. they should offer the software free or at a discount.

Curtis

 

Yea I knew i seen ya @ the track before or somewhere.
I mean close as yur in Va im in NC
and flow numbers I dont care about real flow numbers
just percentages like .400 to .500 lift
anyways im out got mad work too do
later