Best Value Head Work
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (Drag_Racer_DRU)
Hey Curtis,
Shoulda called man.........we spent several hours just experimenting........we played with a whole bunch of different clay shapes, valve angles, and even some spray paint..........
I saw LOLA Racing using paint on their chassis in the wind tunnel, so I thought it would be cool to give it a try.........we got the air moving through the port, then sprayed some WD-40 to wet it down a bit, then lightly misted some blue spray paint and let the air carry it into the port and down into the cahmber.....what we found was really surprising!!! Not gonna share it here, but next time we chat I'll fill you in!
It's a little bit of work to clean up the head and the flowbench, but it was well worth it to be able to sit and analyze the port without the bench flowing air!
Gotta get some sleep now,
C-ya,
-Benn
Shoulda called man.........we spent several hours just experimenting........we played with a whole bunch of different clay shapes, valve angles, and even some spray paint..........
I saw LOLA Racing using paint on their chassis in the wind tunnel, so I thought it would be cool to give it a try.........we got the air moving through the port, then sprayed some WD-40 to wet it down a bit, then lightly misted some blue spray paint and let the air carry it into the port and down into the cahmber.....what we found was really surprising!!! Not gonna share it here, but next time we chat I'll fill you in!
It's a little bit of work to clean up the head and the flowbench, but it was well worth it to be able to sit and analyze the port without the bench flowing air!
Gotta get some sleep now,
C-ya,
-Benn
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,295
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From: North East
Re: late night head (vtecvoodoo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecvoodoo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Anybody know where Tom worked before he started Portflow? I do. 
The Guy knows his ****.
Ryan</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dpr
The Guy knows his ****.
Ryan</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dpr
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (EFIGUY)
Dave,
80% at high lift is an ideal number, .. and no in the Honda exhaust port I haven't gotten there , .. YET. I was refering to 1600 as well as other race castings. But if you start at over 80% at low lift and let the curve taper off instead of giving up low lift number for high lift numbers you may find something. Also keep in mind that looking at mass air flow numbers, .. you'll pick up more mass air flow by making the mid lift numbers fat then letting mid lift go in favor of high lift.
Ben,
Dude, .. if our shops where close, .. it would be trouble, .. Wei would never see me, ..
I did a bunch of wet flow stuff in the 80's using the same ideas you had. I made an adaptor for the huge shop vac and used Dychem to flow into the ports, .. .. yes the results will surprize you.
Now keep in mind that paint has a different specific gravity then air, .. Dychem is closer to fuel.
But I'm sure you found that air and fuel don't flow through the port the same way, .. and yes the "fuel" does come out of suspension in the ports, .. .. now what do you do about it?
We all know that raw fule doesn't burn, .. it has to be atomized.
You keep this up and I'll bet that you will be THE guy for top power on a Honda!!!!
Ben, .. I can't wait to hit the phone and talk about this one!!!!
Oh, .. BTW, .. I don't think anyone is busting on Tom's work at Portflow. I know his work and it's very good. The reaction was to the dude who said you don't need a flowbench to build good heads, .. ..
Curtis
80% at high lift is an ideal number, .. and no in the Honda exhaust port I haven't gotten there , .. YET. I was refering to 1600 as well as other race castings. But if you start at over 80% at low lift and let the curve taper off instead of giving up low lift number for high lift numbers you may find something. Also keep in mind that looking at mass air flow numbers, .. you'll pick up more mass air flow by making the mid lift numbers fat then letting mid lift go in favor of high lift.
Ben,
Dude, .. if our shops where close, .. it would be trouble, .. Wei would never see me, ..
I did a bunch of wet flow stuff in the 80's using the same ideas you had. I made an adaptor for the huge shop vac and used Dychem to flow into the ports, .. .. yes the results will surprize you.
Now keep in mind that paint has a different specific gravity then air, .. Dychem is closer to fuel.
But I'm sure you found that air and fuel don't flow through the port the same way, .. and yes the "fuel" does come out of suspension in the ports, .. .. now what do you do about it?
We all know that raw fule doesn't burn, .. it has to be atomized.
You keep this up and I'll bet that you will be THE guy for top power on a Honda!!!!
Ben, .. I can't wait to hit the phone and talk about this one!!!!
Oh, .. BTW, .. I don't think anyone is busting on Tom's work at Portflow. I know his work and it's very good. The reaction was to the dude who said you don't need a flowbench to build good heads, .. ..
Curtis
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 1
From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: Best Value Head Work (Curtis Boggs)
curtis, what have you seen with meth, and alky vs. gas in regards to port size and the way it moves through the port. I have some pics of a meth 2jz head on exhaust side where you can see exactly where the fuel was moving through the carbon it suprised me all ports being the same (at least I thought) some seemed that the fuel followed the floor and others followed the wall and roof the ones that followed the floor also only had the fuel deposits on the very right side of the floor and went from very fat in the front of the port to a thin line when it got to the short turn. this made me think there was fuel falling out of suspention what do you guys think?
Junior Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 602
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From: Everywhere
Re: late night head (Tbone)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by VTECVOODOO »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Anybody know where Tom worked before he started Portflow? I do.
The Guy knows his ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Dpr</TD></TR></TABLE>
I believe that Joe from Allaniz, and Erick both worked for Dan @ DPR as well.
Anybody know where Tom worked before he started Portflow? I do.
The Guy knows his ****.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Tbone »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Dpr</TD></TR></TABLE>
I believe that Joe from Allaniz, and Erick both worked for Dan @ DPR as well.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 1
From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: Best Value Head Work (Suprdave)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You guys are making me wanna pickup a used flowbench and start experimenting.
**** is interesting as hell.
Suprdave</TD></TR></TABLE>
It will be become a illiness, you will lose sleep, friends, and really annoy your family, save yourself now and don't get one - I sometimes wish I hadn't
**** is interesting as hell.
Suprdave</TD></TR></TABLE>
It will be become a illiness, you will lose sleep, friends, and really annoy your family, save yourself now and don't get one - I sometimes wish I hadn't
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (HEAD)
True that.........it is definately a loser in sleep economics.............even though I stopped screwing around with the bench and went home last night......I still tossed and turned all night trying to process all the info I gathered on the bench.......
I learned so much, that I'm not even sure what I learned yet!
Curtis........you are right about specific gravity.....good point to consider when changing fuel types........or paint colors! haha
HEAD, I'm not exactly sure yet, but it seems there would be a much higher chance of fuel separation from the airstream in a Meth application, purely due to the higher quantity of fuel present? Seems like we'd want to really look hard at the wet-flow characteristics of a meth head, huh?
I learned so much, that I'm not even sure what I learned yet!
Curtis........you are right about specific gravity.....good point to consider when changing fuel types........or paint colors! haha
HEAD, I'm not exactly sure yet, but it seems there would be a much higher chance of fuel separation from the airstream in a Meth application, purely due to the higher quantity of fuel present? Seems like we'd want to really look hard at the wet-flow characteristics of a meth head, huh?
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (HEAD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">curtis, what have you seen with meth, and alky vs. gas in regards to port size and the way it moves through the port. I have some pics of a meth 2jz head on exhaust side where you can see exactly where the fuel was moving through the carbon it suprised me all ports being the same (at least I thought) some seemed that the fuel followed the floor and others followed the wall and roof the ones that followed the floor also only had the fuel deposits on the very right side of the floor and went from very fat in the front of the port to a thin line when it got to the short turn. this made me think there was fuel falling out of suspention what do you guys think?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dave,
Ben is right in one regard, .. the volume of fuel through a meth engine is much higher so there's more to come out of suspension. BUT remember you are looking at an exhaust port so there will be more to it then just wet flow. First you know you're not burning all the fuel available to the engine, .. why? Is it that the fuel never atomizes in the intake system and just "runs" through the engine un burned?, .. or is something going on in the chamber causing it, ..
And remember a by product of combustion is water, .. are you sure you're not seeing water mixed with carbon or oil?
All the ports showing different signs goes back to port mapping the velocity on EVERY port when the head is built. If one short turn is a little tilted ( .0150" ) or so compared to the others it may flow well on the bench but toss the wet flow around like you're seeing.
dave I would think the the wet flow development like Ben is doing would be of greater benifit in an Alky head where the wet flow volume is so much greater then a gas head.
Wait, .. "gas head" , .. i think I herd that term in a porno once, .. um, .. oh sorry, .. got a little off track. ;-)
Curtis
Dave,
Ben is right in one regard, .. the volume of fuel through a meth engine is much higher so there's more to come out of suspension. BUT remember you are looking at an exhaust port so there will be more to it then just wet flow. First you know you're not burning all the fuel available to the engine, .. why? Is it that the fuel never atomizes in the intake system and just "runs" through the engine un burned?, .. or is something going on in the chamber causing it, ..
And remember a by product of combustion is water, .. are you sure you're not seeing water mixed with carbon or oil?
All the ports showing different signs goes back to port mapping the velocity on EVERY port when the head is built. If one short turn is a little tilted ( .0150" ) or so compared to the others it may flow well on the bench but toss the wet flow around like you're seeing.
dave I would think the the wet flow development like Ben is doing would be of greater benifit in an Alky head where the wet flow volume is so much greater then a gas head.
Wait, .. "gas head" , .. i think I herd that term in a porno once, .. um, .. oh sorry, .. got a little off track. ;-)
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (Suprdave)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You guys are making me wanna pickup a used flowbench and start experimenting.
**** is interesting as hell.
Suprdave</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dave, .. don't do it man, .. .. your life will change, .. it's like a bad crack habit, .. up all night, .. always thinking about it, .. .. spend your last penny for a new peito tube or carbide bur, ..
and what it does to the home life, .. well, .. .. I take Wei out to a nice dinner, .. dark, corner table, .. have flowers devlivered to the table, .. good bottle of wine, .. .. and all I can talk about is this head or that head, .. .. or this dyno pull, .. ... .. I end up doing more head then I get ;-)
it's a sickness, ...
Curtis
**** is interesting as hell.
Suprdave</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dave, .. don't do it man, .. .. your life will change, .. it's like a bad crack habit, .. up all night, .. always thinking about it, .. .. spend your last penny for a new peito tube or carbide bur, ..
and what it does to the home life, .. well, .. .. I take Wei out to a nice dinner, .. dark, corner table, .. have flowers devlivered to the table, .. good bottle of wine, .. .. and all I can talk about is this head or that head, .. .. or this dyno pull, .. ... .. I end up doing more head then I get ;-)
it's a sickness, ...
Curtis
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (Curtis Boggs)
[QUOTE=Curtis Boggs]
Oh my GOD, I was laughing out loud when I read that Curtis.....I was hoping that the other night I only ruined the dinner at like Shakey's or something! lol
I didn't know it was that nice! haha
Curtis is right though, guys..........you will spend more money on that new carbide, or new cutter for a trick valve job than on your girl......and from my limited research, the data seems to reflect a general distaste for this situation throughout the female community!
Keep pumping air fellas.......this is getting interesting!
-Ben
Oh my GOD, I was laughing out loud when I read that Curtis.....I was hoping that the other night I only ruined the dinner at like Shakey's or something! lol
I didn't know it was that nice! haha
Curtis is right though, guys..........you will spend more money on that new carbide, or new cutter for a trick valve job than on your girl......and from my limited research, the data seems to reflect a general distaste for this situation throughout the female community!
Keep pumping air fellas.......this is getting interesting!
-Ben
Better than steak
Joined: Jan 2000
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Re: Best Value Head Work (b18bturbo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b18bturbo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">only if larry at endyn would come on here ben this would get really interesting his 30+ years of this stuff.</TD></TR></TABLE>
He is here, trust me.
He is here, trust me.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Every time I talk to Larry, I learn something.......he's been there and done that!</TD></TR></TABLE>
How come he's not getting involved in this thread??????? Larry, .. Larry, .. you out there???
Curtis
How come he's not getting involved in this thread??????? Larry, .. Larry, .. you out there???
Curtis
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (b18bturbo)
He is definately a great guy........he would give you the shirt off of his back if he thought you needed it.........he's the kinda guy who's just thrilled to still be doing this stuff and loves to help out others!
Larry, if you are out there lurking........come on in, the water is nice!
Larry, if you are out there lurking........come on in, the water is nice!
