Best Value Head Work
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From: NotCal
Re: B18 - (Woofer)
I have seen the set-up that woofer uses and it's very cool.................when you are there you kinda feel like you are in the batcave or something!
I've seen his work and he definately does good stuff!
I've seen his work and he definately does good stuff!
Better than steak
Joined: Jan 2000
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Re: B18 - (EFIGUY)
Sorry to kinda go back on the flow bench thing, but I read a really good article by David Reher of Reher-Morrision. Since I recently had the pleasure of going to Reher-Morrision thanks to Larry from Endyn I started to read his tech articles. I think what he says below is pretty cool:
I am not against flow benches; in fact, we use computerized flow benches daily at Reher-Morrison Racing Engines. What I am against is over reliance on flow numbers as the primary measurement of a cylinder head's performance. A flow bench is a valuable tool that can help a racer fine tune a combination - but it is not the ultimate authority.
you can read the entire article here: http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/16.htm
Curtis, nice talking to you the other day. It was way cool! Ignore the idiots that I will soon get rid of.
art
I am not against flow benches; in fact, we use computerized flow benches daily at Reher-Morrison Racing Engines. What I am against is over reliance on flow numbers as the primary measurement of a cylinder head's performance. A flow bench is a valuable tool that can help a racer fine tune a combination - but it is not the ultimate authority.
you can read the entire article here: http://www.rehermorrison.com/techTalk/16.htm
Curtis, nice talking to you the other day. It was way cool! Ignore the idiots that I will soon get rid of.
art
The Old One
Joined: Nov 2001
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From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Re: B18 - (Arturbo)
David's remarks underline my statements regarding the "quality" measurements (in the chart above) being more important than CFM any way you look at it. The fact that our heads bang big numbers is "great", but I don't use those numbers in head development at all.
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From: NotCal
Re: B18 - (Woofer)
I have had the pleasure of taloking to Woofer about his heads and techniques on sevearl occasions, and I was thrilled to learn about the things he had to say............he was very open and shared lots of invaluable information with me...........some of which was truthfully over my head
I was definately inspired and it only makes me love what I do that much more when knowledgeable people can come together and help each other out......
I was definately inspired and it only makes me love what I do that much more when knowledgeable people can come together and help each other out......
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From: Woodbridge, NJ, Middlesex
Re: B18 - (HEAD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">wow I didn't think they would use a cam that big-I stand corrected, considering the toda Dspec cam I would flow it to .550 to
what kind of duration are we looking at with these cams</TD></TR></TABLE>
the spec D cams are too big especially for the flow numbers that Larry's heads produce ... case-and-point my head which had almost the same flow as that posted, I originally told Larry to port for killer cam combination (305/12.5 I; 295/11.5 E) but changed cams about 5 times later ... all ranging from stock ITR to skunk2 to JUN 3 and to Toda Ds to see which worked best ... unfortunately when we use any big cams, whether the killer, spec D or even skunk 3 the motor fell flat on its face, Larry recommending a much smaller cam or at least a combination of smaller cams and we got her alot better.
One thing is for certain, many of the Endyn heads produce tremendous torque numbers ... the trick is to find the right combination of cams or at least grind your own per Larry's specs.
Sometimes its also difficult to explain to people that big cams don;t always produce the results one would expect, especially when going with stock displacement motors.
Greg
what kind of duration are we looking at with these cams</TD></TR></TABLE>
the spec D cams are too big especially for the flow numbers that Larry's heads produce ... case-and-point my head which had almost the same flow as that posted, I originally told Larry to port for killer cam combination (305/12.5 I; 295/11.5 E) but changed cams about 5 times later ... all ranging from stock ITR to skunk2 to JUN 3 and to Toda Ds to see which worked best ... unfortunately when we use any big cams, whether the killer, spec D or even skunk 3 the motor fell flat on its face, Larry recommending a much smaller cam or at least a combination of smaller cams and we got her alot better.
One thing is for certain, many of the Endyn heads produce tremendous torque numbers ... the trick is to find the right combination of cams or at least grind your own per Larry's specs.
Sometimes its also difficult to explain to people that big cams don;t always produce the results one would expect, especially when going with stock displacement motors.
Greg
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Posts: n/a
Re: B18 -
One thing that has confused me about this entire thread, and maybe somebody has said it, but I have not seen it.
All this talk about flow numbers....
Did anyone check NASCAR to verify that the cars that run the fastest on the track, indeed don't have the heads that flowed the most?
All this talk about flow numbers....
Did anyone check NASCAR to verify that the cars that run the fastest on the track, indeed don't have the heads that flowed the most?
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (Woofer)
Woofer,
While on this subjet I'd like to get an older (older then me)opinion of some flow numbers.
The head is this Ford 1600 kent that I spend so much time with. ( SCCA Formula Ford )
2 bl. Weber carb, .. stock cam, . . header. Head has round ports and a flat deck with no chamber.
28" h2o
Lift --- Int. --- Ex. -- %
.100 -- 52.6 --- 46 -- 87.5
.150 -- 76.6 --- 75 -- 97.9
.200 -- 100.2 -- 96.3 -- 96.2
.250 -- 124.7 -- 112 -- 89.8
.300 -- 143.4 --118.9 -- 82.9
.350 -- 160.8 -- 123.7 -- 77
.400 -- 171.5 -- 125.7 -- 73
What do you think about the exhaust flow ratio?, .. .. I've tried to keep numbers around 80% and have tried boosting the low lift numbers over 80% and found some HP gain?
Do you think this is going too far?????? And of course if you have any ideas for dealing with a round port, .. please share. The exhaust port tries to shove the flow through the roof at high lift, .. and shows very low velocity along the floor. The intake port velocity map is VERY even.
BTW, .. I used to work at Sonny's doing the big inch IHRA Pro Stock stuff, .. .. 80's, .. did we ever run into each other at the track???
Curtis
Modified by Curtis Boggs at 5:28 PM 5/22/2003
Modified by Curtis Boggs at 5:46 PM 5/22/2003
While on this subjet I'd like to get an older (older then me)opinion of some flow numbers.
The head is this Ford 1600 kent that I spend so much time with. ( SCCA Formula Ford )
2 bl. Weber carb, .. stock cam, . . header. Head has round ports and a flat deck with no chamber.
28" h2o
Lift --- Int. --- Ex. -- %
.100 -- 52.6 --- 46 -- 87.5
.150 -- 76.6 --- 75 -- 97.9
.200 -- 100.2 -- 96.3 -- 96.2
.250 -- 124.7 -- 112 -- 89.8
.300 -- 143.4 --118.9 -- 82.9
.350 -- 160.8 -- 123.7 -- 77
.400 -- 171.5 -- 125.7 -- 73
What do you think about the exhaust flow ratio?, .. .. I've tried to keep numbers around 80% and have tried boosting the low lift numbers over 80% and found some HP gain?
Do you think this is going too far?????? And of course if you have any ideas for dealing with a round port, .. please share. The exhaust port tries to shove the flow through the roof at high lift, .. and shows very low velocity along the floor. The intake port velocity map is VERY even.
BTW, .. I used to work at Sonny's doing the big inch IHRA Pro Stock stuff, .. .. 80's, .. did we ever run into each other at the track???
Curtis
Modified by Curtis Boggs at 5:28 PM 5/22/2003
Modified by Curtis Boggs at 5:46 PM 5/22/2003
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (ImportReview)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">One thing that has confused me about this entire thread, and maybe somebody has said it, but I have not seen it.
All this talk about flow numbers....
Did anyone check NASCAR to verify that the cars that run the fastest on the track, indeed don't have the heads that flowed the most?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Jeff,
We've discussed many things in this thread. Peak flow numbers are just one of them and are not the only thing we deal with. Port velocity, wet flow, .. the flow curve and the relationship between intake and exhaust flow all are just as important as flow numbers.
I'm sure the NASCAR teams understand this and ballence those things as well. I know that they have "short track engines, .. long track engines and plate engines" each require a different approach to the cylinder head and entire air flow of the engine.
Curtis
All this talk about flow numbers....
Did anyone check NASCAR to verify that the cars that run the fastest on the track, indeed don't have the heads that flowed the most?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Jeff,
We've discussed many things in this thread. Peak flow numbers are just one of them and are not the only thing we deal with. Port velocity, wet flow, .. the flow curve and the relationship between intake and exhaust flow all are just as important as flow numbers.
I'm sure the NASCAR teams understand this and ballence those things as well. I know that they have "short track engines, .. long track engines and plate engines" each require a different approach to the cylinder head and entire air flow of the engine.
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have had the pleasure of taloking to Woofer about his heads and techniques on sevearl occasions, and I was thrilled to learn about the things he had to say............he was very open and shared lots of invaluable information with me...........some of which was truthfully over my head
I was definately inspired and it only makes me love what I do that much more when knowledgeable people can come together and help each other out......</TD></TR></TABLE>
Awwww, .. .. I think this calls for a group hug, ......... .. .. .. .. ..
While on this subject, .. I too have been inspired. Ben and I have had a few phone conversations along with our threads here that have made me think in a different way, .. I've since found some power on a few race projects!
Ahhh the power of sharing and team work!
Now I'm going back to work, ..
Curtis
I was definately inspired and it only makes me love what I do that much more when knowledgeable people can come together and help each other out......</TD></TR></TABLE>
Awwww, .. .. I think this calls for a group hug, ......... .. .. .. .. ..
While on this subject, .. I too have been inspired. Ben and I have had a few phone conversations along with our threads here that have made me think in a different way, .. I've since found some power on a few race projects!
Ahhh the power of sharing and team work!
Now I'm going back to work, ..
Curtis
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From: Woodbridge, NJ, Middlesex
Re: B18 - (ImportReview)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Did anyone check NASCAR to verify that the cars that run the fastest on the track, indeed don't have the heads that flowed the most?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Jeff, besides what Curtis said, you can;t simply look at flow numbers, I remember someone saying (I beleive its John Grudynski that told me this once), apparently there were regulations passed years ago in NASCAR about allowing so much porting in the heads as well as that much displacement in motors, restrictor plates were mandated for the intake, so the route everyone then followed was to increase their rod ratio in the motors which solved both problems, 1) lowering displacement 2) less demand for more airflow in the head
So, once again airflow means nothing, or at least not as important as some may think.
Greg
Did anyone check NASCAR to verify that the cars that run the fastest on the track, indeed don't have the heads that flowed the most?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Jeff, besides what Curtis said, you can;t simply look at flow numbers, I remember someone saying (I beleive its John Grudynski that told me this once), apparently there were regulations passed years ago in NASCAR about allowing so much porting in the heads as well as that much displacement in motors, restrictor plates were mandated for the intake, so the route everyone then followed was to increase their rod ratio in the motors which solved both problems, 1) lowering displacement 2) less demand for more airflow in the head
So, once again airflow means nothing, or at least not as important as some may think.
Greg
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Re: B18 - (CHEETAH)
I will continue to buy heads from the guys who have the quickest cars. Luckilly, both of them have flow benches.
They should all have a contest, see who has the most CFM @28 inches.
Some dude shoudl get a bunch of heads together and make a comparision, like the header test last year that SMSP won.
Talk is fine, but real world performance is paramount.
They should all have a contest, see who has the most CFM @28 inches.
Some dude shoudl get a bunch of heads together and make a comparision, like the header test last year that SMSP won.
Talk is fine, but real world performance is paramount.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (ImportReview)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
They should all have a contest, see who has the most CFM @28 inches.
Some dude shoudl get a bunch of heads together and make a comparision, like the header test last year that SMSP won.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
jeff,
This is just a guess, .. .. but I asume you didn't read ANYTHING that was posted in respons to your flow question.
What would a CFM contest prove??
Curtis
They should all have a contest, see who has the most CFM @28 inches.
Some dude shoudl get a bunch of heads together and make a comparision, like the header test last year that SMSP won.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
jeff,
This is just a guess, .. .. but I asume you didn't read ANYTHING that was posted in respons to your flow question.
What would a CFM contest prove??
Curtis
The Old One
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 436
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From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Re: B18 - (Curtis Boggs)
If CFM was "everything", engine builders would strap the heads with the biggest valves and ports available on engines. Unfortunately, while such a combination (could) make a lot of top-end power, the engine wouldn't have enough torque to ever get there.
Any good engine builder can tell you that ports (and flow rates) have to be precisely tailored to the application at hand, and yes, there's certainly such a thing as too much air flow. If you've never had the opportunity to travel back and forth from the grinding/flow bench to the dyno so you can "quantify" numbers and their effects on one another's performance, it's only natural that understanding the relationships in the process would be difficult.....and if you don't understand it, I recommend that become all eyes and ears......
Any good engine builder can tell you that ports (and flow rates) have to be precisely tailored to the application at hand, and yes, there's certainly such a thing as too much air flow. If you've never had the opportunity to travel back and forth from the grinding/flow bench to the dyno so you can "quantify" numbers and their effects on one another's performance, it's only natural that understanding the relationships in the process would be difficult.....and if you don't understand it, I recommend that become all eyes and ears......
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From: NotCal
It would be pretty funny just to see who would join the contest..............all the real head porters who are in the know wouldn't even bother and the wannabe guys with no bench and one carbide burr and a rat tailed file would be flaunting their best stuff for all to see.........
I think it would be wonderful!
stupidity screams, however
Ipso Facto Posse
I think it would be wonderful!
stupidity screams, however
Ipso Facto Posse
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Posts: n/a
Re: (efiguy)
lol I liked your post. So true.
Personally, I think so many people are scared to put their work (their neck) on the chopping block, that come time for the tournament contest, nobody would show up!
haha.
I would even conduct this contest in a totally unbiased manner. I would love to do that for everyone and post it up. The only problem would be getting a head from Woofer. I don't think he would send me one to test...but he has nothing to worry about....I hope he does well, and I won't bias the test at all, we have used his heads before and they work just fine.
so who would like to participate? I have 2 flowbenches at my disposal anytime I like, I will flow them all at 28 inches....
Jeff
Personally, I think so many people are scared to put their work (their neck) on the chopping block, that come time for the tournament contest, nobody would show up!
haha.
I would even conduct this contest in a totally unbiased manner. I would love to do that for everyone and post it up. The only problem would be getting a head from Woofer. I don't think he would send me one to test...but he has nothing to worry about....I hope he does well, and I won't bias the test at all, we have used his heads before and they work just fine.
so who would like to participate? I have 2 flowbenches at my disposal anytime I like, I will flow them all at 28 inches....
Jeff
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 1,535
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From: Logan, Utah, U.S.
Re: (Arturbo)
Nice article you posted up on the previous page. I saw it a few days ago and wanted to post it up on this thread. Looks like you beat me to it!.
As for the contest why not have say 84 mm bore motor with say probe rods and IMO the best honda piston (IB spec wiseco), jun 3 cams, skunk2 intake mani and a good header and run each head on the dyno in the same car on the same motor. Have like a $150 entry fee. For the time.
As for the contest why not have say 84 mm bore motor with say probe rods and IMO the best honda piston (IB spec wiseco), jun 3 cams, skunk2 intake mani and a good header and run each head on the dyno in the same car on the same motor. Have like a $150 entry fee. For the time.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 9,854
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From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Re: (Woofer)
Come on guys lets keep it technical. No personal grudges please. There is a lot of good info in this thread, lets not let it degenerate into something else.
I have a technical head porting type question:
GSR engine with 84mm bore-12.5:1 pistons-Intake cam w/12.9mm lift 305 degrees advertised duration, exhaust cam w/11.9mm lift & 315 degrees advertised duration, free flowing exhaust, ITR intake manifold, PR3 (B16) head casting.Looking for max torque/hp at 6,000 to 10,000 rpm. What would the ideal port configuration/valve to seat angle etc. be? Exhaust guides ground down or no? Intake guides-teardrop/ground down/untouched?
I have a technical head porting type question:
GSR engine with 84mm bore-12.5:1 pistons-Intake cam w/12.9mm lift 305 degrees advertised duration, exhaust cam w/11.9mm lift & 315 degrees advertised duration, free flowing exhaust, ITR intake manifold, PR3 (B16) head casting.Looking for max torque/hp at 6,000 to 10,000 rpm. What would the ideal port configuration/valve to seat angle etc. be? Exhaust guides ground down or no? Intake guides-teardrop/ground down/untouched?
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,080
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From: Charlotte, NC, USA
Re: B18 - (ImportReview)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just for fun, like a dyno contest, or a drag race contest.
Why are you all uptite man? Who the hell cares?
Dont enter then.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>
Instead of a FLOW contest
How about a engine
MAX hp and max torque contest that would be fun
and do the test on a engine dyno
every body bring a 2.0
with there specs no rules
run what ya brung
any compression
any cams header,ect
that would weed out the wana bees
real quick
Why are you all uptite man? Who the hell cares?
Dont enter then.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>
Instead of a FLOW contest
How about a engine
MAX hp and max torque contest that would be fun
and do the test on a engine dyno
every body bring a 2.0
with there specs no rules
run what ya brung
any compression
any cams header,ect
that would weed out the wana bees
real quick
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: (ImportReview)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">lol I liked your post. So true.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ummm, dude...........I was being sarcastic.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ummm, dude...........I was being sarcastic.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: B18 - (MAX_CFM)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MAX_CFM »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Instead of a FLOW contest
How about a engine
MAX hp and max torque contest that would be fun
and do the test on a engine dyno
every body bring a 2.0
with there specs no rules
run what ya brung
any compression
any cams header,ect
that would weed out the wana bees
real quick</TD></TR></TABLE>
It would be fun, but it still wouldn't prove that any one guy's head is any better than the rest.........we all know it's all about the combination, no single part can make the engine a winner..........HP contests are always neat to see though.......
The V-8 guys do 'em all the time.
Instead of a FLOW contest
How about a engine
MAX hp and max torque contest that would be fun
and do the test on a engine dyno
every body bring a 2.0
with there specs no rules
run what ya brung
any compression
any cams header,ect
that would weed out the wana bees
real quick</TD></TR></TABLE>
It would be fun, but it still wouldn't prove that any one guy's head is any better than the rest.........we all know it's all about the combination, no single part can make the engine a winner..........HP contests are always neat to see though.......
The V-8 guys do 'em all the time.