Best Value Head Work
I am a bad person
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: South Florida
Re: Best Value Head Work (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Timmay,
no offense, but I'll bet if you sit down and pencil it out, you will find that it's not possible to operate a professional business out of a shop with an 8-10 dollar per hour labor rate. It hard to make the payments on all the sophisticated equipment it takes to do the job properly, like a seat and guide machine, valve grinder, pressure tester, surfacer,vacuum tester and flowbench.........just to name a few!
Good luck though. to each his own.</TD></TR></TABLE>
no offense, but I'll bet if you sit down and pencil it out, you will find that it's not possible to operate a professional business out of a shop with an 8-10 dollar per hour labor rate. It hard to make the payments on all the sophisticated equipment it takes to do the job properly, like a seat and guide machine, valve grinder, pressure tester, surfacer,vacuum tester and flowbench.........just to name a few!
Good luck though. to each his own.</TD></TR></TABLE>
New User
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Logan, UT
Re: Best Value Head Work (MotorMatrix.com)
actually we sat down a few times and figured it all out. and there is no way we could afford a full shop with all the equipment we need. so we worked a deal out with another local shop to use space to do work when we need. also we don't do valve work yet due to the fact of not the right equip. We have another machine shop that does our valve jobs, hot tanking, surfacing etc... We have done quite a few Honda heads and a few bottom end builds, with great results. don't get me wrong we are trying our hardest to get a flowbench and other etc.. tools. And as we may not do as good of a job as portflow or other BIG companies, i feel that our headwork is up there. Sage who is our "porter" has done MANY hours of study and practice heads before ever charging to do headwork. Its tough to compete with everyone out there that does good work, and that is one reason we don't charge much. We are mainly in it to help others out and most of all cause its fun and very enjoyable to us.
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From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (Timmay)
Good attitude.............nothing wrong with that..........keep going and it'll all fall into place eventually. I'm just glad to hear that you guys realize you need to have somone with the right equipment perform the critical stuff like the valve work.
-Ben
-Ben
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From: Logan, UT
Re: Best Value Head Work (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Good attitude.............nothing wrong with that..........keep going and it'll all fall into place eventually. I'm just glad to hear that you guys realize you need to have somone with the right equipment perform the critical stuff like the valve work.
-Ben</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh for sure, we wont attempt anything that we know we cant do 100% customer satisfied. in time we hope to be able to do the whole 9 yards.
-Ben</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh for sure, we wont attempt anything that we know we cant do 100% customer satisfied. in time we hope to be able to do the whole 9 yards.
Thread Starter
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From: Orange County, CA
Re: Best Value Head Work (Timmay)
dude, this is the way ht SHOULD be 
, people getting along, this is scary now, it's not the normal ht envornment, i'm tripping out! ahhhhhh! 
, people getting along, this is scary now, it's not the normal ht envornment, i'm tripping out! ahhhhhh!
New User
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From: Logan, UT
Re: Best Value Head Work (MugenGTR)
im all about trying to keep H-T positive. dont get me wrong im always up for a good arguement. there are a few people i have a real problem with on here but i dont let it get to me.
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From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: Best Value Head Work (Timmay)
Timmay, honestly and I do mean this, charge what everyone else is charging if you feel your work is good , with this you'll do two things
1.make enough money for your over head and put enough in the bank for future plans with equipment-only over time though it'll take a few years
2. you won't **** off the competition by low balling them which is taking money out there pocket in an unfair way-really it's unfair to yourself to which is when you must put a value on yourself how much are you worth - the work I have seen in the picks although I need to feel a port to guage it's true quality looks better than 350.00 most shops worth a damn sell this same port for 850w/a valve job keep that in mind.
And don't think you need all the equipment to be someone in the industry I speak from experience on this one I have a flow bench and a valve surfacer -that's it, and you know what I have never put a Honda head or a 2jz supra head on my flow bench until recently and my heads are on the fastest cars in the world! Knowledge is Power. Surround yourself with people smarter then you-always be honest about what you know and don't know people sense B.S.
I also hear a lot of B.S. about going to domestic head porters some pro import porting shops make us sound like a bunch of neanderthals and have only worked on cast iron heads designed in the 60's but the truth is to port some of these domestic heads takes real talent, much more than an sport compact head and 99% is aluminum . point I am trying to make to you guys to understand is air is blind it doesn't know it's going through a honda head or a chevy head it's a port shape and that's it! sorry for the rant but I needed to get that off my chest
knowlede = work
----- =money Best wishes!
time
1.make enough money for your over head and put enough in the bank for future plans with equipment-only over time though it'll take a few years
2. you won't **** off the competition by low balling them which is taking money out there pocket in an unfair way-really it's unfair to yourself to which is when you must put a value on yourself how much are you worth - the work I have seen in the picks although I need to feel a port to guage it's true quality looks better than 350.00 most shops worth a damn sell this same port for 850w/a valve job keep that in mind.
And don't think you need all the equipment to be someone in the industry I speak from experience on this one I have a flow bench and a valve surfacer -that's it, and you know what I have never put a Honda head or a 2jz supra head on my flow bench until recently and my heads are on the fastest cars in the world! Knowledge is Power. Surround yourself with people smarter then you-always be honest about what you know and don't know people sense B.S.
I also hear a lot of B.S. about going to domestic head porters some pro import porting shops make us sound like a bunch of neanderthals and have only worked on cast iron heads designed in the 60's but the truth is to port some of these domestic heads takes real talent, much more than an sport compact head and 99% is aluminum . point I am trying to make to you guys to understand is air is blind it doesn't know it's going through a honda head or a chevy head it's a port shape and that's it! sorry for the rant but I needed to get that off my chest
knowlede = work
----- =money Best wishes!
time
Joined: Feb 2002
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From: Beaverton, OR, US
Re: Best Value Head Work (All Motor Rex)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by All Motor Rex »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Check out http://www.dprracing.com </TD></TR></TABLE>
in stages too
</TD></TR></TABLE>in stages too
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From: Logan, UT
Re: Best Value Head Work (HEAD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Timmay, honestly and I do mean this, charge what everyone else is charging if you feel your work is good , with this you'll do two things
1.make enough money for your over head and put enough in the bank for future plans with equipment-only over time though it'll take a few years
2. you won't **** off the competition by low balling them which is taking money out there pocket in an unfair way-really it's unfair to yourself to which is when you must put a value on yourself how much are you worth - the work I have seen in the picks although I need to feel a port to guage it's true quality looks better than 350.00 most shops worth a damn sell this same port for 850w/a valve job keep that in mind.
And don't think you need all the equipment to be someone in the industry I speak from experience on this one I have a flow bench and a valve surfacer -that's it, and you know what I have never put a Honda head or a 2jz supra head on my flow bench until recently and my heads are on the fastest cars in the world! Knowledge is Power. Surround yourself with people smarter then you-always be honest about what you know and don't know people sense B.S.
I also hear a lot of B.S. about going to domestic head porters some pro import porting shops make us sound like a bunch of neanderthals and have only worked on cast iron heads designed in the 60's but the truth is to port some of these domestic heads takes real talent, much more than an sport compact head and 99% is aluminum . point I am trying to make to you guys to understand is air is blind it doesn't know it's going through a honda head or a chevy head it's a port shape and that's it! sorry for the rant but I needed to get that off my chest
knowlede = work
----- =money Best wishes!
time</TD></TR></TABLE>
thanks for the advice, notes taken
we do complete heads with the valve jobs and all for 550 though, then plus shipping charges. 350 is just the porting and polishing, no valve work
thanks though
1.make enough money for your over head and put enough in the bank for future plans with equipment-only over time though it'll take a few years
2. you won't **** off the competition by low balling them which is taking money out there pocket in an unfair way-really it's unfair to yourself to which is when you must put a value on yourself how much are you worth - the work I have seen in the picks although I need to feel a port to guage it's true quality looks better than 350.00 most shops worth a damn sell this same port for 850w/a valve job keep that in mind.
And don't think you need all the equipment to be someone in the industry I speak from experience on this one I have a flow bench and a valve surfacer -that's it, and you know what I have never put a Honda head or a 2jz supra head on my flow bench until recently and my heads are on the fastest cars in the world! Knowledge is Power. Surround yourself with people smarter then you-always be honest about what you know and don't know people sense B.S.
I also hear a lot of B.S. about going to domestic head porters some pro import porting shops make us sound like a bunch of neanderthals and have only worked on cast iron heads designed in the 60's but the truth is to port some of these domestic heads takes real talent, much more than an sport compact head and 99% is aluminum . point I am trying to make to you guys to understand is air is blind it doesn't know it's going through a honda head or a chevy head it's a port shape and that's it! sorry for the rant but I needed to get that off my chest
knowlede = work
----- =money Best wishes!
time</TD></TR></TABLE>
thanks for the advice, notes taken
we do complete heads with the valve jobs and all for 550 though, then plus shipping charges. 350 is just the porting and polishing, no valve work
thanks though
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From: NotCal
Hey Timmay,
Just be sure your machine shop is giving you the quality of valve work you need.
There is much more to doing a valve job than just making sure they seal.
The dimensions of the seat and its ancilliary angles can make or break a port......I've seen decent port work look like crap on the flow bench because of poor seat dimensions, and likewise you'd be amazed at how much you can pick up on a middle of the road port job by really paying attention to how the seat blends into the port, and where the seat contacts the face of the valve.......especially in the all important low-lift flow ranges.......this is what will make an engine really come alive!
Just be sure your machine shop is giving you the quality of valve work you need.
There is much more to doing a valve job than just making sure they seal.
The dimensions of the seat and its ancilliary angles can make or break a port......I've seen decent port work look like crap on the flow bench because of poor seat dimensions, and likewise you'd be amazed at how much you can pick up on a middle of the road port job by really paying attention to how the seat blends into the port, and where the seat contacts the face of the valve.......especially in the all important low-lift flow ranges.......this is what will make an engine really come alive!
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (Timmay)
Timmay,
You need to think about the porting work, .. without a flow bench how do you know you are doing the right things in the port?? These ports and all ports are touchy and HAVE to be flowed to be done properly. I'm sure Ben, Dave and others here will tell you it's just as easy to make a bad port as a good one. It's the shape of the port that is important, .. not the looks or the SURFACE FINISH.
Head porters need to be engineers, .. cause we are rethinking the work those high paid Honda engineers did. I took fluid flow and areo classes at MIT years ago, worked for some of the top engine builders in the country, set 100's of national records and did consulting for several major auto makers for their race heads, .. so I may be a "neanderthal" to the import world, .. but experience wins every time. Go find a used Superflow 110 bench, .. it flows enough to do what you need and can be found for a around $2,000. If you can't find used call Superflow and sign a loan or lease, it'll pay for it's self very fast.
Once you get a machine feel free to call me and I'll help get you running quickly.
Shop rates of $80 or more are normal, .. $1,400 or so for real porting and flowing are about average for a race head in my shop ( 20 hours or more). There is NO WAY a good cylinder head porter can build a good RACE head for $300. And $550 for a ported head with a Valve job is just plain SILLY. Cheap in cylinder heads means it's not very good. As a head porter you must think of the future, .. YOUR future! In 20 years ( I've been doing it 25 ) when your hands hurt from the grinder, .. and you can't even write cause of the damage to your hands and wrists, .. how are you going to earn a living?? You need to make enough money to buy equipment and save for the future, .. you owe that to your self and family.
If you are going to stay in cylinder heads, .. buy a CnC machine to do the cutting for you.
A cnc machine is nothing more then a huge copy machine for head porters, .. it's the ONLY way to grow the business.
Listen to EFIGUY (Ben) Or Head (David), .. if you are trying to do this as a business then TREAT it as a business, .. and charge fair market value. Do a cost of doing business, .. rent, elec, machine payments, .. and YOUR SALERY plus some profit, .. this will tell you you need to be charging at least $80 an hour for labor and make a mark up on parts.
Now in the import world, .. everyone is looking for cheap. When I was doing Small block Chevy 25 years ago it was the same thing. But I learned in business that if I was going to be around next year I had to let the cheap guys go find it somewhere else, .. I wanted to do good work, .. not cheap work. The guys who wanted the best came to me, .. .. my point here is if you try to make it cheap cause the customer THINKS it should be cheap then you will only lower the market value and make it so no one can earn a living porting import heads. YOU set your prices for your work, .. if you do good quality work for a fair price you will be back logged for several months, ..
and be able to afford those race parts for your own toy.
OK, .. that's MY rant, .. .. .. and thank you for listning, ...
Curtis
You need to think about the porting work, .. without a flow bench how do you know you are doing the right things in the port?? These ports and all ports are touchy and HAVE to be flowed to be done properly. I'm sure Ben, Dave and others here will tell you it's just as easy to make a bad port as a good one. It's the shape of the port that is important, .. not the looks or the SURFACE FINISH.
Head porters need to be engineers, .. cause we are rethinking the work those high paid Honda engineers did. I took fluid flow and areo classes at MIT years ago, worked for some of the top engine builders in the country, set 100's of national records and did consulting for several major auto makers for their race heads, .. so I may be a "neanderthal" to the import world, .. but experience wins every time. Go find a used Superflow 110 bench, .. it flows enough to do what you need and can be found for a around $2,000. If you can't find used call Superflow and sign a loan or lease, it'll pay for it's self very fast.
Once you get a machine feel free to call me and I'll help get you running quickly.
Shop rates of $80 or more are normal, .. $1,400 or so for real porting and flowing are about average for a race head in my shop ( 20 hours or more). There is NO WAY a good cylinder head porter can build a good RACE head for $300. And $550 for a ported head with a Valve job is just plain SILLY. Cheap in cylinder heads means it's not very good. As a head porter you must think of the future, .. YOUR future! In 20 years ( I've been doing it 25 ) when your hands hurt from the grinder, .. and you can't even write cause of the damage to your hands and wrists, .. how are you going to earn a living?? You need to make enough money to buy equipment and save for the future, .. you owe that to your self and family.
If you are going to stay in cylinder heads, .. buy a CnC machine to do the cutting for you.
A cnc machine is nothing more then a huge copy machine for head porters, .. it's the ONLY way to grow the business.
Listen to EFIGUY (Ben) Or Head (David), .. if you are trying to do this as a business then TREAT it as a business, .. and charge fair market value. Do a cost of doing business, .. rent, elec, machine payments, .. and YOUR SALERY plus some profit, .. this will tell you you need to be charging at least $80 an hour for labor and make a mark up on parts.
Now in the import world, .. everyone is looking for cheap. When I was doing Small block Chevy 25 years ago it was the same thing. But I learned in business that if I was going to be around next year I had to let the cheap guys go find it somewhere else, .. I wanted to do good work, .. not cheap work. The guys who wanted the best came to me, .. .. my point here is if you try to make it cheap cause the customer THINKS it should be cheap then you will only lower the market value and make it so no one can earn a living porting import heads. YOU set your prices for your work, .. if you do good quality work for a fair price you will be back logged for several months, ..
and be able to afford those race parts for your own toy.
OK, .. that's MY rant, .. .. .. and thank you for listning, ...
Curtis
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From: Logan, UT
Re: Best Value Head Work (HEAD)
well thanks for the opinion, seems like im not the only one on here doing headwork for cheap though. We were just trying to stay competitive. Plus i dont make the pricing the guy that ports does ive told him to up his price but he like to do them for 350. but thanks for the advice!!!
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (HEAD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Curtis that was really well said!! 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Thanks Dave, .. .. .
A question for you, a little off the subject, .,. are you velocity mapping ports???
If so, .. I have one that is driving me crazy, .. maybe we could discuss it???
Curtis
</TD></TR></TABLE>Thanks Dave, .. .. .
A question for you, a little off the subject, .,. are you velocity mapping ports???
If so, .. I have one that is driving me crazy, .. maybe we could discuss it???
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (Timmay)
Tim,
Dude, .. I hope you don't feel like you are getting ganged up on, .. I'm not trying to pick on you and I'm sure no one else is either. we are offering advice based on our experience and are concerned about the market and less experienced people doing damage to it. Also my post, I HOPE, is for the benifit of everyone.
There are two ways to be "competitive" as a cylinder head porter or in any business, ..
(a). do cheap work with moderate results. ( refer to my post regarding your future)
(b). Do good work with very good performence results.
Being "competitive" does not mean being cheap.
Curtis
Dude, .. I hope you don't feel like you are getting ganged up on, .. I'm not trying to pick on you and I'm sure no one else is either. we are offering advice based on our experience and are concerned about the market and less experienced people doing damage to it. Also my post, I HOPE, is for the benifit of everyone.
There are two ways to be "competitive" as a cylinder head porter or in any business, ..
(a). do cheap work with moderate results. ( refer to my post regarding your future)
(b). Do good work with very good performence results.
Being "competitive" does not mean being cheap.
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (EFIGUY)
Ben,
I tried to IM you, .. ..
anyhow, .. I gotta go back to work. Quickly, .. I have a round exhaust port that has the high velocity pushed up to the roof of the port and the floor from the short turn out is VERY low.
Round port, .. flat deck with no chamber, .. ..
I thought the short turn wasn't working and tried all the "tricks", .. made it wider, .. reshaped it to make it taller, .. .. nothing is working, ... ..
Curtis
I tried to IM you, .. ..
anyhow, .. I gotta go back to work. Quickly, .. I have a round exhaust port that has the high velocity pushed up to the roof of the port and the floor from the short turn out is VERY low.
Round port, .. flat deck with no chamber, .. ..
I thought the short turn wasn't working and tried all the "tricks", .. made it wider, .. reshaped it to make it taller, .. .. nothing is working, ... ..
Curtis
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (Curtis Boggs)
Hey Curtis,
Sorry I missed you're IM....
I think I saw something similar to this on a Bombardier cycle head once....I tried everything and even stacked up some clay to build the floor some, but to only moderate results..eventually I think I raised the roof as much as possible and built the floor up a proportionate amount to make the transition from the chamber going past the valve and up into the port a longer "tube" if you will. I was hoping this would increase the overall cross-sectional pressure of that point in the port where the radius {both short and long} takes place....
The hope was that the increased pressure would help break up that nasty boundary layer on the bottom of the port. It worked pretty well. In the end there may have been a better solution, but as you know, time and money dictate how much research we can spend on a particular project.
Let me know what you find..... I'd love to gain some insight.
-Ben
Sorry I missed you're IM....
I think I saw something similar to this on a Bombardier cycle head once....I tried everything and even stacked up some clay to build the floor some, but to only moderate results..eventually I think I raised the roof as much as possible and built the floor up a proportionate amount to make the transition from the chamber going past the valve and up into the port a longer "tube" if you will. I was hoping this would increase the overall cross-sectional pressure of that point in the port where the radius {both short and long} takes place....
The hope was that the increased pressure would help break up that nasty boundary layer on the bottom of the port. It worked pretty well. In the end there may have been a better solution, but as you know, time and money dictate how much research we can spend on a particular project.
Let me know what you find..... I'd love to gain some insight.
-Ben
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From: Logan, UT
Re: Best Value Head Work (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Tim,
Dude, .. I hope you don't feel like you are getting ganged up on, .. I'm not trying to pick on you and I'm sure no one else is either. we are offering advice based on our experience and are concerned about the market and less experienced people doing damage to it. Also my post, I HOPE, is for the benifit of everyone.
There are two ways to be "competitive" as a cylinder head porter or in any business, ..
(a). do cheap work with moderate results. ( refer to my post regarding your future)
(b). Do good work with very good performence results.
Being "competitive" does not mean being cheap.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh its all good guys, i know where you guys were getting at. i appreciate the advice
Dude, .. I hope you don't feel like you are getting ganged up on, .. I'm not trying to pick on you and I'm sure no one else is either. we are offering advice based on our experience and are concerned about the market and less experienced people doing damage to it. Also my post, I HOPE, is for the benifit of everyone.
There are two ways to be "competitive" as a cylinder head porter or in any business, ..
(a). do cheap work with moderate results. ( refer to my post regarding your future)
(b). Do good work with very good performence results.
Being "competitive" does not mean being cheap.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
oh its all good guys, i know where you guys were getting at. i appreciate the advice
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From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: Best Value Head Work (Curtis Boggs)
Curtis, I haven't done any mapping as of yet, I have the probs, and the software but honestly haven't figured out how to make it work. I have the winflow pro software and haven't had the time to use it to it's fullest and besides I've been having good luck without it so it hasn't pushed me to figure it out-I get lazy sometimes when it comes to computer stuff
btw what kind of head are you working on maybe i've done one and I could help that way
Modified by HEAD at 10:12 PM 4/25/2003
btw what kind of head are you working on maybe i've done one and I could help that way
Modified by HEAD at 10:12 PM 4/25/2003
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (HEAD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have the winflow pro software
btw what kind of head are you working on</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dave,
Dude you NEED to get the Port Flow software, .. it is 100,000,000 times better then the Winflow, ..
I'm working on a Ford 1600 "Kent" 4 cylinder head for SCCA formula ford.
Ben,
You have an idea there regarding the angle of the port. It looks like the flow goes strait up the valve bowl and doesn't make the turn at the short turn. The problem is class rules don't allow welding or adding material to the ports. Limited to .350" lift too but the port quits at .250" to .300" lift.
The real kicker is I have ports in the same head that flow 12 cfm better, .. but can't find any difference in the ports!
Curtis
btw what kind of head are you working on</TD></TR></TABLE>
Dave,
Dude you NEED to get the Port Flow software, .. it is 100,000,000 times better then the Winflow, ..
I'm working on a Ford 1600 "Kent" 4 cylinder head for SCCA formula ford.
Ben,
You have an idea there regarding the angle of the port. It looks like the flow goes strait up the valve bowl and doesn't make the turn at the short turn. The problem is class rules don't allow welding or adding material to the ports. Limited to .350" lift too but the port quits at .250" to .300" lift.
The real kicker is I have ports in the same head that flow 12 cfm better, .. but can't find any difference in the ports!
Curtis