Best Value Head Work
The Old One
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 436
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From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Re: Best Value Head Work (Supertwinz)
We've been doing the 2.3 Ford 4-valvers for quite a while. Our dyno block is just back from sleeving, so we'll be looking at some numbers soon.
The head flow numbers, combined with a shallow chambers indicate that Honda's going to be in real trouble very soon.
So far the biggest problem with the engine's the crank. You either have to do a billet, or use a Nissan crank like we're doing. The Nissan crank also permits you to use bearings other than the NOT-available bearings from Ford.
The head flow numbers, combined with a shallow chambers indicate that Honda's going to be in real trouble very soon.
So far the biggest problem with the engine's the crank. You either have to do a billet, or use a Nissan crank like we're doing. The Nissan crank also permits you to use bearings other than the NOT-available bearings from Ford.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
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From: NotCal
Woofer,
Thanks for the help today...........I did some quick changes and saw that I'm going in the right direction, but I have a Loooong way to go before my B16 gets numbers like your talking about........
I did however make some smoke by burning a piece of rubber that I covered in oil....{it stinks fellas, I wouldn't recommend it} and I see that 85% of the airflow in the port seems to happen from the floor to the middle of the port...very little along the roof........
Is there a way to better utilize all of the port?
Thanks for the help today...........I did some quick changes and saw that I'm going in the right direction, but I have a Loooong way to go before my B16 gets numbers like your talking about........
I did however make some smoke by burning a piece of rubber that I covered in oil....{it stinks fellas, I wouldn't recommend it} and I see that 85% of the airflow in the port seems to happen from the floor to the middle of the port...very little along the roof........
Is there a way to better utilize all of the port?
The Old One
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Re: Woof, Woof
Remember, the length of the port (from the beginning of the intake runner) to the valve seat when measured on the roof, must equal the corresponding length on the floor or short-side.
Non-concentric seat radii will help you get there, with the smaller radius (more rounded) on the short-side and larger radius (straighter) at the rear of the bowl. You have to "encourage" the flow to go where you want it. Chamber radii above the seat proper are also critical.
It's not possible to make a cutter that can machine the proper radius all the way around the seat, period. You can make a cutter that will machine the more bulbous part, but you'll either have to CNC or become extremely adept at eyeballing and hand blending from there.....
If this stuff was easy, everyone would be "experts".................
Non-concentric seat radii will help you get there, with the smaller radius (more rounded) on the short-side and larger radius (straighter) at the rear of the bowl. You have to "encourage" the flow to go where you want it. Chamber radii above the seat proper are also critical.
It's not possible to make a cutter that can machine the proper radius all the way around the seat, period. You can make a cutter that will machine the more bulbous part, but you'll either have to CNC or become extremely adept at eyeballing and hand blending from there.....
If this stuff was easy, everyone would be "experts".................
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 1
From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: Best Value Head Work (Woofer)
I just seen one this weekend and it looked very nice, much longer runners then honda so I would imagine torque is through the roof. does anyone make a cam for this setup or are they just regrinding stock cams. the only thing I didn't like about the port from what I could see(carboned up and it was dark outside) is the area under the seat on the long side had a casting flaw that from what I could see could not be corrected with ease any insight oh mighty woofer? also do you think you could use the spring buckets from the toyota?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 329
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From: New Cumberland, PA, cumberland
Re: valve angles(EFIGUY) (Curtis Boggs)
radius's 
good thread by the way. dont you hate how you can say and pronounce all day but you come home and start typing and you have no clue how to spell anymore......there are other thing more important than spelling....like reading this thread 
good thread by the way. dont you hate how you can say and pronounce all day but you come home and start typing and you have no clue how to spell anymore......there are other thing more important than spelling....like reading this thread
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: valve angles(EFIGUY) (turbodGSR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbodGSR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just read all 17 pages and my eyes and head hurt from information overload. i have a few b16a bare heads if needed. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You read all 17 pages? Wow, that's dedication.
I cold use one of those heads you have........IM or email me and we'll talk
-Ben
</TD></TR></TABLE>You read all 17 pages? Wow, that's dedication.
I cold use one of those heads you have........IM or email me and we'll talk
-Ben
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Woof, Woof (Woofer)
Woof, .. woofer, .. woofer,
BTW, .. Larry, .. what's with the "woofer" ????? care to explain??? Are you a dog? been a dog in another life?, ... .. or just dog tired?
About the radious under the seats, .. .. what Larry is talking about has always been a tool for the final tuning on the flow bench for ANY head. We used to do the same stuff with the 500" pro stock engines.
With Larry reminding me of it's usefullness (sp?) the 1600 heads that are sutch a pain are now down to a set of hand cuts made to the radious after cutting the valve job.
Cut seats with full radious under exhaust and a 70 under the intake. Then tune the radious's on the flow bench. After a few heads it's gotten to be fairly predictable.
Now I'm working this up on the S2k and the Yamaha R1
One thing I found on this head and the S2k intake is the sharp edge where the 70 meets the port needs to stay sharp and the area where it's hand worked needs to be sharp as well. So using a sand roll to work the radious or sand rolling after using a carbide burr REDUCED the flow.
I'm hand working with an old dull carbide and not touching it after.
Consumers also need to be aware of this as they may get a high dollar race head and wonder why they can see grind marks and what may look like sloppy work, .. .. it's not always a bad thing
BTW, .. Larry, .. what's with the "woofer" ????? care to explain??? Are you a dog? been a dog in another life?, ... .. or just dog tired?
About the radious under the seats, .. .. what Larry is talking about has always been a tool for the final tuning on the flow bench for ANY head. We used to do the same stuff with the 500" pro stock engines.
With Larry reminding me of it's usefullness (sp?) the 1600 heads that are sutch a pain are now down to a set of hand cuts made to the radious after cutting the valve job.
Cut seats with full radious under exhaust and a 70 under the intake. Then tune the radious's on the flow bench. After a few heads it's gotten to be fairly predictable.
Now I'm working this up on the S2k and the Yamaha R1
One thing I found on this head and the S2k intake is the sharp edge where the 70 meets the port needs to stay sharp and the area where it's hand worked needs to be sharp as well. So using a sand roll to work the radious or sand rolling after using a carbide burr REDUCED the flow.
I'm hand working with an old dull carbide and not touching it after.
Consumers also need to be aware of this as they may get a high dollar race head and wonder why they can see grind marks and what may look like sloppy work, .. .. it's not always a bad thing
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: valve angles(EFIGUY) (turbodGSR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbodGSR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just read all 17 pages and my eyes and head hurt from information overload. i have a few b16a bare heads if needed. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I too could use a B16 to play with, .. e-mail me, .. curtis@cboggs.com
On another note, .. I've been asked privately several times about a great machinest / engine builder. My development partner is Jim Justice at Justice race engines in Fredrick MD, 301-624-1000
JJ does great machine work and has a VERY long history of national champoinship wins.
Better yet he's open to trying things, .. and that's why we work so well together.
Hours on the phone talking about cam timing, .. air flow, .. drivability, .. and dyno time have made my programes what they are today.
Curtis
</TD></TR></TABLE>I too could use a B16 to play with, .. e-mail me, .. curtis@cboggs.com
On another note, .. I've been asked privately several times about a great machinest / engine builder. My development partner is Jim Justice at Justice race engines in Fredrick MD, 301-624-1000
JJ does great machine work and has a VERY long history of national champoinship wins.
Better yet he's open to trying things, .. and that's why we work so well together.
Hours on the phone talking about cam timing, .. air flow, .. drivability, .. and dyno time have made my programes what they are today.
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: valve angles(EFIGUY) (1fstcorrado)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 1fstcorrado »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">radius's good thread by the way. dont you hate how you can say and pronounce all day but you come home and start typing and you have no clue how to spell anymore......there are other thing more important than spelling....like reading this thread </TD></TR></TABLE>
If I was smart enough to spell, .. I might not be a head porter. ;-)
Question for the head porters, .. .. surface finish??? I have a head in the shop that looks awesome, .. as if it was done with 300 grit flappers or something. VERY even, .. very smooth, ..
BUT, .. much too smooth I think. I tend to use 60 or 80 grit sand rolls as the surface finish isn't too smooth. This promotes better fuel management in the port.
Also, .. the high polish on the exhaust and chamber, .. two lines of thinking,
ONE, .. polish to a mirror to retain heat, ( I don't buy this, carbon will stick anyway)
TWO sand roll finish to get carbon to stick as carbon is the best insulator.
gang, .. thoughts???
Curtis
good thread by the way. dont you hate how you can say and pronounce all day but you come home and start typing and you have no clue how to spell anymore......there are other thing more important than spelling....like reading this thread </TD></TR></TABLE>If I was smart enough to spell, .. I might not be a head porter. ;-)
Question for the head porters, .. .. surface finish??? I have a head in the shop that looks awesome, .. as if it was done with 300 grit flappers or something. VERY even, .. very smooth, ..
BUT, .. much too smooth I think. I tend to use 60 or 80 grit sand rolls as the surface finish isn't too smooth. This promotes better fuel management in the port.
Also, .. the high polish on the exhaust and chamber, .. two lines of thinking,
ONE, .. polish to a mirror to retain heat, ( I don't buy this, carbon will stick anyway)
TWO sand roll finish to get carbon to stick as carbon is the best insulator.
gang, .. thoughts???
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
I pretty much like the chamber to be smooth for the purpose of eliminating hot spots, but as for polishing it to a mirror finsh..........well I think mostly that's just for show........
anybody have any contradictory evidence?
anybody have any contradictory evidence?
B*a*n*n*e*d
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,765
Likes: 1
Re: late night head (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Next question, .. .. am I the only one who designs my valve jobs with the flow bench then has custom cutters made?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No. You can have custom made seat cutters made by Newen. I have have some myself that I will be testing. I know of other Honda head specialists that use cutters for shaping the throat, seat, top angle, top radius and combustion chamber using the flow bench.
I agree with the points you make re valve angles and customizing the seats to flow. You just don't just use 5 angles or full radius because it sounds more exotic.
Next question, .. .. am I the only one who designs my valve jobs with the flow bench then has custom cutters made?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
No. You can have custom made seat cutters made by Newen. I have have some myself that I will be testing. I know of other Honda head specialists that use cutters for shaping the throat, seat, top angle, top radius and combustion chamber using the flow bench.
I agree with the points you make re valve angles and customizing the seats to flow. You just don't just use 5 angles or full radius because it sounds more exotic.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 337
Likes: 0
From: cincinnati, OH, usa
Re: late night head (Rocket)
so what is the best value head work? where are the most gain found for the little amount of work on honda-heads?is it in the chambers,valvejobs,runners,etc? is there anything the, not so advanced people can do to improve airfow or quality w/out a bench, or just don't touch it unless u do?
B*a*n*n*e*d
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,765
Likes: 1
Re: late night head (turbodGSR)
Think where the restriction is. On the intake is it at the port entry or valve seat/valve. On the exhuast is it the exit or the the valve seat/valve. This will answer your question.
Then think where does most of the flow pass through the port, long or short radius.
Then add in that more power can be made if the stuff is swirled in. If you look at a Toyota 22RE head the intake port is shaped like a question mark and to a lesser extent the exhaust ports are like this too. Think cork screw or tornado.
Honda heads incorporate swirl in the intake by having the intake runners bent at certain areas or having crooked exhaust ports. That's why you should not discount the power of a Intake manifold with curved runners vs. ITB's with straight runners.
Then think where does most of the flow pass through the port, long or short radius.
Then add in that more power can be made if the stuff is swirled in. If you look at a Toyota 22RE head the intake port is shaped like a question mark and to a lesser extent the exhaust ports are like this too. Think cork screw or tornado.
Honda heads incorporate swirl in the intake by having the intake runners bent at certain areas or having crooked exhaust ports. That's why you should not discount the power of a Intake manifold with curved runners vs. ITB's with straight runners.
B*a*n*n*e*d
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,765
Likes: 1
Re: late night head (Rocket)
My Vote - JG Engine Dynamics
How many tuners have a DTS transient engine dyno that can measure actual per cylinder flow while the engine is running, not to mention cylinder pressure, egt, etc.
How many tuners have a DTS transient engine dyno that can measure actual per cylinder flow while the engine is running, not to mention cylinder pressure, egt, etc.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: late night head (Rocket)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rocket »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
No. You can have custom made seat cutters made by Newen. I have have some myself that I will be testing. I know of other Honda head specialists that use cutters for shaping the throat, seat, top angle, top radius and combustion chamber using the flow bench.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This was posted to start a thread talking about custom valve angles, .. I get cutter made by Newen too, .. have for years.
Sooo, .. what custom angles are you trying?
I'm getting ready to order a few things to try. Maybe we can save each other some money.
Curtis
No. You can have custom made seat cutters made by Newen. I have have some myself that I will be testing. I know of other Honda head specialists that use cutters for shaping the throat, seat, top angle, top radius and combustion chamber using the flow bench.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This was posted to start a thread talking about custom valve angles, .. I get cutter made by Newen too, .. have for years.
Sooo, .. what custom angles are you trying?
I'm getting ready to order a few things to try. Maybe we can save each other some money.
Curtis
B*a*n*n*e*d
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,765
Likes: 1
Re: late night head (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
This was posted to start a thread talking about custom valve angles, .. I get cutter made by Newen too, .. have for years.
Sooo, .. what custom angles are you trying?
I'm getting ready to order a few things to try. Maybe we can save each other some money.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
Basically a very shallow top with a reverse radius. ~1.0mm 45 and a long throat.
I can call Pascal at Newen to let you order it or I can loan you mine. The only thing I don't like about it is that the cutter is not as long as I would like it so some clean up with a roll may be necessary on the throat.
This was posted to start a thread talking about custom valve angles, .. I get cutter made by Newen too, .. have for years.
Sooo, .. what custom angles are you trying?
I'm getting ready to order a few things to try. Maybe we can save each other some money.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
Basically a very shallow top with a reverse radius. ~1.0mm 45 and a long throat.
I can call Pascal at Newen to let you order it or I can loan you mine. The only thing I don't like about it is that the cutter is not as long as I would like it so some clean up with a roll may be necessary on the throat.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 9,854
Likes: 4
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Re: Best Value Head Work (Supertwinz)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Supertwinz »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Kinda On subject: The Great Head Test please. Maybe do it on a flowbench? Or if you got the time do it on a engine dyno. 
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I second that, you guys could compete with each other, and winner buys everyone dinner
</TD></TR></TABLE>I second that, you guys could compete with each other, and winner buys everyone dinner
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: late night head (turbodGSR)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbodGSR »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so what is the best value head work? where are the most gain found for the little amount of work on honda-heads?is it in the chambers,valvejobs,runners,etc? is there anything the, not so advanced people can do to improve airfow or quality w/out a bench, or just don't touch it unless u do?</TD></TR></TABLE>
By far, .. valve seat, valve bowl & short turn radius pay the largest dividends.
This is touchy stuff as I'm sure you've seen from this thread, .. I wouldn't mess with it without a flow bench and some experience. It's too easy to make it much worse.
There are porters that offer a basic package, bowl port & valve job for little money, .. I'd go that route. Stick to a known porter, .. ..
Curtis
By far, .. valve seat, valve bowl & short turn radius pay the largest dividends.
This is touchy stuff as I'm sure you've seen from this thread, .. I wouldn't mess with it without a flow bench and some experience. It's too easy to make it much worse.
There are porters that offer a basic package, bowl port & valve job for little money, .. I'd go that route. Stick to a known porter, .. ..
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: late night head (Rocket)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rocket »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Basically a very shallow top with a reverse radius. ~1.0mm 45 and a long throat.
I can call Pascal at Newen to let you order it or I can loan you mine. The only thing I don't like about it is that the cutter is not as long as I would like it so some clean up with a roll may be necessary on the throat.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rocket, .. nice offer, thank you. So what is the bottom throat, .. a radius?
I'm thinking of trying a radius for the bottom cut on the exhaust cutter, .. and maybe a strait 70 for the bottom of the intake.
Curtis
Basically a very shallow top with a reverse radius. ~1.0mm 45 and a long throat.
I can call Pascal at Newen to let you order it or I can loan you mine. The only thing I don't like about it is that the cutter is not as long as I would like it so some clean up with a roll may be necessary on the throat.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Rocket, .. nice offer, thank you. So what is the bottom throat, .. a radius?
I'm thinking of trying a radius for the bottom cut on the exhaust cutter, .. and maybe a strait 70 for the bottom of the intake.
Curtis
B*a*n*n*e*d
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,765
Likes: 1
Re: late night head (Curtis Boggs)
I don't want to release to much info publicly but me and you don't think too differently.
I like your hybrid exhaust idea, the lead angles should be discrete from what I know.
I like your hybrid exhaust idea, the lead angles should be discrete from what I know.
B*a*n*n*e*d
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,765
Likes: 1
Re: late night head (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Rocket, .. nice offer, thank you. So what is the bottom throat, .. a radius?
I'm thinking of trying a radius for the bottom cut on the exhaust cutter, .. and maybe a strait 70 for the bottom of the intake.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
For the exhaust I just have Newen part no. 4030. 35/45/55. I think this will do the trick for the exhaust. Let me know your experience with something like this.
Rocket, .. nice offer, thank you. So what is the bottom throat, .. a radius?
I'm thinking of trying a radius for the bottom cut on the exhaust cutter, .. and maybe a strait 70 for the bottom of the intake.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
For the exhaust I just have Newen part no. 4030. 35/45/55. I think this will do the trick for the exhaust. Let me know your experience with something like this.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: late night head (Rocket)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Rocket »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
For the exhaust I just have Newen part no. 4030. 35/45/55. I think this will do the trick for the exhaust. Let me know your experience with something like this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think it may need to be the other way, .. strait bottom on the intake and radius on the exhaust.
There's two things to think about, .. scavaging the cylinder and reversion. I think you need a strong low lift flow number on the exhaust port, .. and the radius will help that.
Curtis
For the exhaust I just have Newen part no. 4030. 35/45/55. I think this will do the trick for the exhaust. Let me know your experience with something like this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I think it may need to be the other way, .. strait bottom on the intake and radius on the exhaust.
There's two things to think about, .. scavaging the cylinder and reversion. I think you need a strong low lift flow number on the exhaust port, .. and the radius will help that.
Curtis