Well, I'll prolly be the least intellectual of my peers....heh

But atleast I can aim to own you all in the go carts

Suprdave

 

hehe thanks, but no im just a car dork

i passed your place last summer when i went to visit a buddy, he told me about you, great work on the solaras... they just blow my mind. I will be back in NJ this summer so maybe i could stop by and say hi? I always enjoy a good BS session

 

best thread ever

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Timmay, honestly and I do mean this, charge what everyone else is charging if you feel your work is good , with this you'll do two things
1.make enough money for your over head and put enough in the bank for future plans with equipment-only over time though it'll take a few years
2. you won't **** off the competition by low balling them which is taking money out there pocket in an unfair way-really it's unfair to yourself to which is when you must put a value on yourself how much are you worth - the work I have seen in the picks although I need to feel a port to guage it's true quality looks better than 350.00 most shops worth a damn sell this same port for 850w/a valve job keep that in mind.
And don't think you need all the equipment to be someone in the industry I speak from experience on this one I have a flow bench and a valve surfacer -that's it, and you know what I have never put a Honda head or a 2jz supra head on my flow bench until recently and my heads are on the fastest cars in the world! Knowledge is Power. Surround yourself with people smarter then you-always be honest about what you know and don't know people sense B.S.
I also hear a lot of B.S. about going to domestic head porters some pro import porting shops make us sound like a bunch of neanderthals and have only worked on cast iron heads designed in the 60's but the truth is to port some of these domestic heads takes real talent, much more than an sport compact head and 99% is aluminum . point I am trying to make to you guys to understand is air is blind it doesn't know it's going through a honda head or a chevy head it's a port shape and that's it! sorry for the rant but I needed to get that off my chest
knowlede = work
----- =money Best wishes!
time</TD></TR></TABLE>

WHAT IS PRICE FIXING?
Most state statutes provide that fixing the price of a product or service in agreement with another individual or business is illegal. The general rule provides that a vendor may not in combination with another vendor agree to set a certain price thereby creating a fixed price within a certain market. A business acting on its own and not in concert with another may use legitimate efforts to obtain the best price they can, including their ability to raise prices to the detriment of the general public. Also, conformity of prices within a given product is not illegal unless such conformity was created by a combination of vendors agreeing on a set price. For example, where competitors agree to sell their goods or services at a specified price, minimum price or maximum price and they receive profits from such an agreement, they are in violation of price fixing. Additionally, setting a price to be charged only within a certain area in order to get rid of competition or to create a monopoly is generally illegal under most state laws. A majority of states have also enacted a "Below-Sales-Cost" law wherein businesses may not sell goods below cost if they do so with anti-competitive intent or effect.

This information is only a brief summary of the extensive price fixing laws and regulations. For specific application of price fixing regulations, please consult with an attorney.

 

Crow,

You need to reread what you posted or consult your own lawyer. Discussion of the general market and general pricing is not price fixing under state or federal law. Vendors can share price information freely, .. no one here has set and agreed to price X that we all will use.

curtis

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Well, I'll prolly be the least intellectual of my peers....heh

But atleast I can aim to own you all in the go carts

Suprdave</TD></TR></TABLE>

Dave, .. .. I wouldn't concider myself "intellectual", .. but I do have a Formula Ford I road race, .. and can kick some serious butt in a kart, .. so we may have one hell of a race!! PRI is gonna be very cool.

Ya know, .. again thinking of expanding our little talk, .. I wonder if PRI would like to have a pannel discussion about porting & cylinder heads.

Curtis

 

Geoff,

This stuff ROCKS !!! I've sooo wanted to work with this but I can see this is gonna take a bunch of time to get good with. Wei's brother builds computers and servers and stuff so getting a multi processor machine built is no big deal.

Thanks man, ..

curtis

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Crow,

You need to reread what you posted or consult your own lawyer. Discussion of the general market and general pricing is not price fixing under state or federal law. Vendors can share price information freely, .. no one here has set and agreed to price X that we all will use.

curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>

Exactly......no one here has asked for anyone else to have any certain price..........many have given free advice for others to be able to make some actual profit and not put themselves out of business..........

I'm not sure out of the 250 sum odd posts this thread has seen just how many have been guys that are here simply to cause trouble and make waves.........but I get the feeling that this is your sole purpose.........if it is............you are not very welcome here...........

We are simply a group of individuals who came together to share information that is not readily available to the average guy in order to improve the overall level of education in the Honda community..........we are not here for the purpose of collusion and I don't think any of the serious vendors that are involved in this discussion raelly need to worry about what others charge for similar services......because there is enough work to go around and the quality of work is what sets the individual price structure.......

Happy mother's day all............now lets get some more cool info flyin'!

 

thanks for the compliment the solaras blow my mind to, definitly stop by or call when your in the area.

I think it's going to be waaay to cold to be doing any cart racing in indy this past year was about the coldest I have ever been! I am a real chick when it comes to cold weather. But we can go to the clubs and drink our asses off
my favorite place is bob's tiki bar, places where beautiful woman dance on the bar get in my book!

I don't know if I would want to see a round table about head porting we could all go to the SAE convention in colorado to listen to that were it is a little more regulated, I just don't feel like listening to David Vizard, and Mondello arguing about swirl and tumble and how there ideas are" it "and there is nothing anyone else could say that is worth listening to, smart people but it is hard to learn from people with attitudes like that. Did you guys see Mondello's booth with the wet flow bench? looked preety cool but was affraid to ask what it might cost. I really saw alot of **** heads from cnc companies too, were talking real garbage the only head I saw that was any decent was the new ford head from Mclaren.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I think it's going to be waaay to cold to be doing any cart racing in indy this past year was about the coldest I have ever been!

Actually I think there are a few indoor cart places there......warm racing is the only way to be!

I don't know if I would want to see a round table about head porting we could all go to the SAE convention in colorado to listen to that were it is a little more regulated, I just don't feel like listening to David Vizard, and Mondello arguing about swirl and tumble and how there ideas are" it "and there is nothing anyone else could say that is worth listening to, smart people but it is hard to learn from people with attitudes like that.

I think I'd agree on this point......'Ol Joe has has his face painted on every cylinder head porter's cereal box for years........and he's very good, but there are certainly other that are as good or better......his son Bernard Mondello is a tough sonofabitch to get along with, but he sure as hell knows his way around a port and I have a much easier time with him than Joe.

Did you guys see Mondello's booth with the wet flow bench? looked preety cool but was affraid to ask what it might cost.

Yeah........i thought it was cool as hell, but it really turned me off when Joe, the same guy that has been pushing regular flow benches for years, tried to say that they are now worthless and his new double whammy bench is the only thing worth a damn....I'd almost build my own before giving him any of my money just because of his shitty attitude. I know everybody wants to sell something.......but use a little integrity, wouldja' Joe?

I really saw alot of **** heads from cnc companies too, were talking real garbage the only head I saw that was any decent was the new ford head from Mclaren.

No doubt.........every guy in the country who can get easy financing it seems has bought a CNC machine and is now trying to do pallets of heads for ten cents a piece to try and make the payments........it's not exactly helping the industry...........first because having a head CNC ported looks great, so peole want to buy it......even if HEAD is right and it is just a **** pile........now the guys who really do quality work have to compete with that too........also because the port that is being machined is only a copy of something someone made by hand, so yeah they are all exactly the same, but that doesn't mean they are exactly right.

Don't get me wrong...I think a CNC ported head is a fantastic benefit to the performance community, but buying one requires the same amount of forethought and judgement it always has.....buyer beware.................only get the stuff from someone you know you can trust.........when a guy has a nice seat and guide machine, it doesn't mean he automatically does good valve jobs...........same goes for the guy who buys a 5 axis mill. Just my 2 cents!

</TD></TR></TABLE>

 

(Some) ProStock teams use their Mondello wet-flow benches as a place to pitch cold coffee....

 

Ben,

Yup there are some indoor kart tracks in Indy, .. but think since David knows I'm good in karts and a road racer he's trying to find an excuse to back out, .. ;-) That's OK, .. he can drink beer while we race, .. .. then the race winner can steel all the girls

As for David Vizzard & Mondello, .. and swirl & tumble, .. if I don't have anything positive to say, .. I'll choose to say nothing. But the wet flow bench VS the old shop vac and a spray can of Dychem, .. I'll stick to the dychem.

CnC, .. yup has hurt our industry some, .. but hert the consumer much more. There are a ton of guys who thought it would be cool to CnC port heads, .. "can churn them out cheap"
Then came time to make the machine payment, .. .. a good cylinder head guy who does development Like Ben, David, my self, Max-CFM, .. a CnC machine would be a valuble tool, ..
to some bone head who never developed a head in the first place it's just a copy machine to copy crappy work. And there was a bunch of crappy work at the PRI show.
I think the public has a missconception of just what a CnC machine does. It's nothing more then a copy machine for cylinder head porters, .. put a good design in and get good heads out, .. put a crappy port design in, .. get crap out. Also GOOD race heads that have been CnC ported are ALWAYS hand finished and flow bench tuned.

As for use doing a round table, .. I think there is a big difference, .. we can discuss Ideas, .. and concider each others ideas as valid without some ego causeing problems. Here is a group of porters who can bounce around ideas, .. each adding to the original idea, .. and acheive much more then a group who argues over who's right or wrong.

heck with heads, .. there is no right or wrong, .. cause I've seen some really strainge stuff make a butt load of power, .. and I've seen some nice work that would be better as a door stop.

Curtis

 

I actually fell into the CNC trap a couple years ago..........bought some totally trick LT-4 heads from a guy in FL, and did all the work to get em' on the car..........it made the same power as the ported LT-1 heads and manifold it already had...........I learned that lesson the hard way.............it's just easy to fall into the thought that if the guy has invested all his money in something, he would know what he's talking about? life goes on.

 

Be prepared to spend at least 1 week doing nothing but configuring tool pathes after you've digitized the head you want to copy.....and that's if you've been doing CNC head porting for 10-15 years. I've seen some experts (for real) spend over a month writing a program for one new configuration before the mill cuts the port close enough for finish porting.

 

Plus then, as Curtis mentioned.......and serious race head still needs to be finished by hand and tuned on the flowbench.

 

has anyone else noticed how big this threadis getting? We have as many or more views than most of the sicky's do!
That means there must be a huge desire thoughout the industry for more knowledge, don't you think?

 

Yep , were all ears(err eye's) Like a dry sponge trying to absorb all this

Now we just got to get you guys good and drunk so you tell us the real secrets

 

Ben,
yup, .. this thread is getting kinda big, .. and getting a TON of hits, .. ..

Tbone, .. all ears, .. um eyes, .. that's cool, .. is there any specific questions you have?
BTW, .. I don't drink so you'll get no secrets from me!!!

But, .. you may have figgured from this thread the real secret to cylinder head porting, .. ..
is how much effort is put in by the porter and the quality of his/her testing and development programes., .. .. no secrets, just hard work.

Curtis

 

Ben, David, MAX-CFM, ..

Got a question / subject for ya.

A race ported B18, .. I'm sure you've seen the welded floor in the exhaust port to make a "D" port.
I've tried it several different ways with clay, .. and mapped the velocity and I'm yet to find an advantage. Am I missing something?

I thought it may have a effect on expansion entering the header so I did the tests a second time with a pipe on the head, .. still no advantage I could find on the bench or with velocity.

I've seen this port in Toyota Atlantic race heads, .. as well as some other stuff that it did help, .. my guess is that it was just a matter of somebody copying those heads without doing a full test.

Funny thing is I did find something by reshaping the roof, .. making a deeper valve bowl and raising the roof at the port exit. I think you told me you didn't make the same gains with that???

Curtis

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Woofer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Be prepared to spend at least 1 week doing nothing but configuring tool pathes after you've digitized the head you want to copy.....and that's if you've been doing CNC head porting for 10-15 years. I've seen some experts (for real) spend over a month writing a program for one new configuration before the mill cuts the port close enough for finish porting.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Woofer, .. do you know anything about the CAMpleate software??, ..
It says "scan a port in the morning and machine a port in the afternoon"
http://www.cncheads.com/software/software1.htm

Curtis

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Woofer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">(Some) ProStock teams use their Mondello wet-flow benches as a place to pitch cold coffee....</TD></TR></TABLE>

There is only one way too wet flow test

Im sure larry knows this

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Woofer, .. do you know anything about the CAMpleate software??, ..
It says "scan a port in the morning and machine a port in the afternoon"
http://www.cncheads.com/software/software1.htm

Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its not that easy
Right now they pay CNC porters 200 grand a year in NASCAR
programing a 5 axis machine takes talent
Talk too Mike Chapman
He has set up more peoples
stuff its not funny. That and he does alot of Vick Edelbrocks
heads.

 

Max-cfm,

I'm very computer savy, .. for 200K a year I'll programe their machines ;-)
Or, .. a few contracts on the table. , I'll buy a machine and get it runnin, ..

Curtis

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ben, David, MAX-CFM, ..

Got a question / subject for ya.

A race ported B18, .. I'm sure you've seen the welded floor in the exhaust port to make a "D" port.
I've tried it several different ways with clay, .. and mapped the velocity and I'm yet to find an advantage. Am I missing something?
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>

Everybody has there own package
It just takes time with these heads
I messed enuff of them up trying too get crazy with them
Im on track now but it just takes time as with any engine program
I would talk too larry@ Endyn
He knows his ****
Dont be fooled by the flamming on this board
Anyone who has done anything in racing
or has accually worked in "professional"racing
knows what this man can do
FACT!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ben, David, MAX-CFM, ..

Got a question / subject for ya.

A race ported B18, .. I'm sure you've seen the welded floor in the exhaust port to make a "D" port.
I've tried it several different ways with clay, .. and mapped the velocity and I'm yet to find an advantage. Am I missing something?

I thought it may have a effect on expansion entering the header so I did the tests a second time with a pipe on the head, .. still no advantage I could find on the bench or with velocity.

I've seen this port in Toyota Atlantic race heads, .. as well as some other stuff that it did help, .. my guess is that it was just a matter of somebody copying those heads without doing a full test.

Funny thing is I did find something by reshaping the roof, .. making a deeper valve bowl and raising the roof at the port exit. I think you told me you didn't make the same gains with that???

Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>

I have tested a bunch of different floor shapes and hieghts and have ended up feeling like it was a lot of hard work to make the port look nice..........

I have tried simply raising the roof of the port by itself towards the outside after the center divider without much gain......

I have been finding most of the improvements in the bowl area and I've been told there is more to be found around the guide area........{provided you don't completely remove the guide as we have previously}..........

I'm thinking that you were on to something before Curtis, when you were talking about making the bowl deeper and the roof taller and referencing the SBC style port..........I'm thinking this would get a bit more of a straight shot down the back of the valve after the air makes the turn..............the port is really smooth and kind of slanted towards the valve without much of a short turn radius, much like the Cadillac Northstar and Lincoln LS V8's I've been playing with..........these ports flow about the same as the Honda too, but they are quite a bit larger............I have a feeling that getting a bit more volume at the roof as it comes down into the bowl is gonna take us somewhere...........we need to be careful about volume though, as the velocity down around the bottom of the port doesn't seem to be real good as it is.

I found that as the air finishes making the short turn, the velocity REALLY picks up as it forms the "cone" going around the valve and seat....... If we could get the air moving a bit better before that short turn is already done we might see a good improvement?