Best Value Head Work
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 485
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From: Matrix
Re: B18 - (earl)
I thank TheOldOne.com ...for the valuable info here
Intake side of a B18C1 head we did last week for a high rpm (10,500K) .020" oversize circuit race engine heading to South America. We kept port size minimal (compared to our all-motor heads) for a broad torque curve.
Lift CFM Quality
.050" 52.2 45.0
.100" 98.2 64.0
.150" 145.2 364.2
.200" 185.7 600.0
.250" 218.9 835.1
.300" 250.1 1086.4
.350" 277.3 1333.0
.400" 299.7 1558.7
.450" 315.1 1710.0
.500" 328.4 1845.2
.550" 336.6 1935.5
Intake side of a B18C1 head we did last week for a high rpm (10,500K) .020" oversize circuit race engine heading to South America. We kept port size minimal (compared to our all-motor heads) for a broad torque curve.
Lift CFM Quality
.050" 52.2 45.0
.100" 98.2 64.0
.150" 145.2 364.2
.200" 185.7 600.0
.250" 218.9 835.1
.300" 250.1 1086.4
.350" 277.3 1333.0
.400" 299.7 1558.7
.450" 315.1 1710.0
.500" 328.4 1845.2
.550" 336.6 1935.5
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: race
Ben,
Just got back, .. ...... race went well, .. .. qualified 2nd, .. got a great jump on the start and led the 1st 1.5 laps but couldn't hold off the poll qualifier any longer. Got some much needed national points and some valuble seat time. More important, .. I got faster every session.
Funny story, .. Firday open practice day. It had rained and there where several deep puddles hiding in the grass of the run off areas. Turns 1,2 &3 are a very bumpy section but flat out in 3rd gear, .. around 95mph. Well I screwed up the entry to 3 and it sent me into the grass on exit.
Some freinds in the pits said the splash of water must have been 20 feet high. As I sat stuck in the muddy grass, .. I could feel the water running in around me and up my suit. Spent the next hour trying to get all the water out of the car.
Curtis
Just got back, .. ...... race went well, .. .. qualified 2nd, .. got a great jump on the start and led the 1st 1.5 laps but couldn't hold off the poll qualifier any longer. Got some much needed national points and some valuble seat time. More important, .. I got faster every session.
Funny story, .. Firday open practice day. It had rained and there where several deep puddles hiding in the grass of the run off areas. Turns 1,2 &3 are a very bumpy section but flat out in 3rd gear, .. around 95mph. Well I screwed up the entry to 3 and it sent me into the grass on exit.
Some freinds in the pits said the splash of water must have been 20 feet high. As I sat stuck in the muddy grass, .. I could feel the water running in around me and up my suit. Spent the next hour trying to get all the water out of the car.
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: race (Curtis Boggs)
NICE! That's hilarius.......nothing like driving around and sweating in an already wet driving suit.........yuck.
Guess we'll have to get some pontoons for that thing with the RFD logo on 'em!
Guess we'll have to get some pontoons for that thing with the RFD logo on 'em!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (B20---Vtec)
Vtec,
We've discussed this early in this thread.
A few things, .. It's hard to compare flow numbers because one flow bench may not get the same number as another given the same head. Also how the test it done, how the air is straitened etc. all effect flow numbers. Flow benches are just like dynos. You start with a baseline test on the bench, and do all of your development on that same bench. As long as the flow bench repeats well you're good to go.
A flow bench is a development tool, .. not a "lie detector" This is why most pro head porters are reluctent to discuss flow numbers other then in general terms.
Second and much more important. The head should be ported to the job it's intended to do and the specs for the engine combination it's designed for. One combo may call for a fat mid lift flow curve while another needs tons of high lift flow and a killer exhaust port.
Third, .. wet flow. there are things that head porters are doing to effect how fule travels through the head and into the chamber. This generally doesn't show up on the flow bench, .. again there have been some posts here ragarding wet flow.
And finally, .. budget. How much you spend with a good head porter should be reflected in the work. We also discussed the economics of our business in this thread. At $80 to $120 an hour shop labour rate, .. and the time it takes to REALY work a head, .. a great cylinder head is rather expensive.
So, .. your question of how to find somebody to trust, .. .. I think you have to do your home work. Ben posted on this thread, .. a great little guide to get you 90% there. Do some homework on the head porter. Did he start porting three months ago or 30 years ago? MAKE sure he has a flow bench and KNOWS how to use it. You might want to ask some PRO engine builders, .. and I don't mean some little corner shop but an engine builder with national records and a long history of race wins. Take some time and call some of the "experts" you see posting here, .. I know if I can't help you I'll help you find someone who can.
The final point to remember, .. .. a race engine and a race car is a combination of things that have to work together. A great head doesn't set records. It takes a great engine COMBINATION to take advantage of a good head, .. a good tranny to get the power to the wheels, .. and VERY important to E.T. is the chassis.
Now, .. since I've played on the computer enough, .. I'd better get back to porting.
Curtis
We've discussed this early in this thread.
A few things, .. It's hard to compare flow numbers because one flow bench may not get the same number as another given the same head. Also how the test it done, how the air is straitened etc. all effect flow numbers. Flow benches are just like dynos. You start with a baseline test on the bench, and do all of your development on that same bench. As long as the flow bench repeats well you're good to go.
A flow bench is a development tool, .. not a "lie detector" This is why most pro head porters are reluctent to discuss flow numbers other then in general terms.
Second and much more important. The head should be ported to the job it's intended to do and the specs for the engine combination it's designed for. One combo may call for a fat mid lift flow curve while another needs tons of high lift flow and a killer exhaust port.
Third, .. wet flow. there are things that head porters are doing to effect how fule travels through the head and into the chamber. This generally doesn't show up on the flow bench, .. again there have been some posts here ragarding wet flow.
And finally, .. budget. How much you spend with a good head porter should be reflected in the work. We also discussed the economics of our business in this thread. At $80 to $120 an hour shop labour rate, .. and the time it takes to REALY work a head, .. a great cylinder head is rather expensive.
So, .. your question of how to find somebody to trust, .. .. I think you have to do your home work. Ben posted on this thread, .. a great little guide to get you 90% there. Do some homework on the head porter. Did he start porting three months ago or 30 years ago? MAKE sure he has a flow bench and KNOWS how to use it. You might want to ask some PRO engine builders, .. and I don't mean some little corner shop but an engine builder with national records and a long history of race wins. Take some time and call some of the "experts" you see posting here, .. I know if I can't help you I'll help you find someone who can.
The final point to remember, .. .. a race engine and a race car is a combination of things that have to work together. A great head doesn't set records. It takes a great engine COMBINATION to take advantage of a good head, .. a good tranny to get the power to the wheels, .. and VERY important to E.T. is the chassis.
Now, .. since I've played on the computer enough, .. I'd better get back to porting.
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: race (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">NICE! That's hilarius.......nothing like driving around and sweating in an already wet driving suit.........yuck.
Guess we'll have to get some pontoons for that thing with the RFD logo on 'em!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ben,
Pontoons, .. good idea. Maybe some training wheels to keep me on the track in the first place.
Curtis
Guess we'll have to get some pontoons for that thing with the RFD logo on 'em!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ben,
Pontoons, .. good idea. Maybe some training wheels to keep me on the track in the first place.
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (ImportReview)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Heads on the worlds fastest imports sells ported heads. Hyping up everything without any "worlds fastest titles" sells heads, but not as much. For sure.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>
If I hear "worlds fastest" again I think I'll PUKE !!!!!!
If you realy want to talk about records, .. ask Larry at Endyn how many NHRA & IHRA national records he's set in his 30+ years, .. .. ask me in my 20+, .. ..
True record setters don't blast about with "worlds fastest"
Sorry Jeff, .. not picking on you, .. .. just growing weary on that phrase and venting it.
Curtis
Heads on the worlds fastest imports sells ported heads. Hyping up everything without any "worlds fastest titles" sells heads, but not as much. For sure.
Jeff</TD></TR></TABLE>
If I hear "worlds fastest" again I think I'll PUKE !!!!!!
If you realy want to talk about records, .. ask Larry at Endyn how many NHRA & IHRA national records he's set in his 30+ years, .. .. ask me in my 20+, .. ..
True record setters don't blast about with "worlds fastest"
Sorry Jeff, .. not picking on you, .. .. just growing weary on that phrase and venting it.
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (QCKGSR)
AEBS........aren't they here in SanDiego? Anyone who does the porting for them here on the board? Feel free to jump in.......we are all enjoying the lively conversation about heads so add whatever you'd like!
Hey Curtis...........could be worse.........they could've had gaurdrails........
what was the last thing I told you before you left?????? I said "try to keep all four corners on the car".............I shoulda' said "keep all four corners on the TRACK"!
Hey Curtis...........could be worse.........they could've had gaurdrails........
what was the last thing I told you before you left?????? I said "try to keep all four corners on the car".............I shoulda' said "keep all four corners on the TRACK"!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: race (letholone)
Hi Letholone......
A nice street port normally costs around 600-900 dollars depending on parts you want, and level of performance you want to achieve........
we can usually do the work including valve job and surface in about 1.5-2 weeks
-Ben
A nice street port normally costs around 600-900 dollars depending on parts you want, and level of performance you want to achieve........
we can usually do the work including valve job and surface in about 1.5-2 weeks
-Ben
Junior Member
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 482
Likes: 0
From: OH SEA, ca, usa
Re: race (EFIGUY)
thanks for the quick reply.
that seems more then reasonable for the amount of time and knowledge i would think your going to put into this head.
since im going with the B18 non-vtec. is there ways to maxamize my output gains with different porting styles. I.E.. im want to get more top end out of the head because the block already is producing more low end.
im looking to run the large crower cams and valvetain. i would supply these to you as well. to maybe help you port the head for the exact cam specs?
keep up the thought train and the motivation you have going. you and curtis and HEAD have been throwing out some very intelligent theorys. thanks for that.
that seems more then reasonable for the amount of time and knowledge i would think your going to put into this head.
since im going with the B18 non-vtec. is there ways to maxamize my output gains with different porting styles. I.E.. im want to get more top end out of the head because the block already is producing more low end.
im looking to run the large crower cams and valvetain. i would supply these to you as well. to maybe help you port the head for the exact cam specs?
keep up the thought train and the motivation you have going. you and curtis and HEAD have been throwing out some very intelligent theorys. thanks for that.
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: race (letholone)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by letholone »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so if i sent out a b18 head to CURTIS or EFIGUY. what kind of price would that be for a nice street port? and what kinda turnaround time?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Letholone, ..
I'm about the same as Ben price wise, .. $900 for basic street port with valve job, clean and assemble. Valve guides, .. other pats, .. surfice & CC are extra.
I also have a bowl package that is porting the valve bowl & short turn radious and a race valve job for $600. This is the best "bang for the buck" as most of the flow improvements are in the valve seat & valve bowl areas.
Of corse all the work is flow tested.
I turn this kind of work around in two to three weeks depending on the back log in the shop.
Curtis
Letholone, ..
I'm about the same as Ben price wise, .. $900 for basic street port with valve job, clean and assemble. Valve guides, .. other pats, .. surfice & CC are extra.
I also have a bowl package that is porting the valve bowl & short turn radious and a race valve job for $600. This is the best "bang for the buck" as most of the flow improvements are in the valve seat & valve bowl areas.
Of corse all the work is flow tested.
I turn this kind of work around in two to three weeks depending on the back log in the shop.
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
what was the last thing I told you before you left?????? I said "try to keep all four corners on the car".............I shoulda' said "keep all four corners on the TRACK"!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ben, .. you didn't tell me to keep the car dry though, .. ..
Mid Ohio in a few weeks, .. nice champ car track, .. I can't wait.
Curtis
what was the last thing I told you before you left?????? I said "try to keep all four corners on the car".............I shoulda' said "keep all four corners on the TRACK"!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ben, .. you didn't tell me to keep the car dry though, .. ..
Mid Ohio in a few weeks, .. nice champ car track, .. I can't wait.
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ben, .. you didn't tell me to keep the car dry though, .. ..
Mid Ohio in a few weeks, .. nice champ car track, .. I can't wait.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
DRY? I guess I gotta explain EVERY detail then, don't I? lol
Mid Ohio............lucky dog...............I think I want one of those cars
Ben, .. you didn't tell me to keep the car dry though, .. ..
Mid Ohio in a few weeks, .. nice champ car track, .. I can't wait.
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
DRY? I guess I gotta explain EVERY detail then, don't I? lol
Mid Ohio............lucky dog...............I think I want one of those cars
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: Best Value Head Work (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Mid Ohio............lucky dog...............I think I want one of those cars </TD></TR></TABLE>
Ben,
A formula Ford or any formula car is soooo much fun. If you get to this side of the planet we'll have to see if we can get you some laps in it, ....
Curtis
Mid Ohio............lucky dog...............I think I want one of those cars
</TD></TR></TABLE>Ben,
A formula Ford or any formula car is soooo much fun. If you get to this side of the planet we'll have to see if we can get you some laps in it, ....
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: valve opening fixture
hey head guys, .. ..
what's everyone doing for a valve opening fixture???
I have a nice deal but it's adapted from a Chevy ( I know, bad word)
It repeats well but can be a bitch to use, .. so I wanna make a new, better, new and improved one and I'm looking for ideas.
Curtis
what's everyone doing for a valve opening fixture???
I have a nice deal but it's adapted from a Chevy ( I know, bad word)
It repeats well but can be a bitch to use, .. so I wanna make a new, better, new and improved one and I'm looking for ideas.
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 1
From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: valve opening fixture (Curtis Boggs)
it's funny you say that you are looking for one, today I gave a local fab shop a honda head to make a fixture for it we were discussing using billet, should be real nice I'll let you know in a few days
Honda-Tech Member
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Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: valve opening fixture (HEAD)
I have one that is adapted from a chevy too.........it is also a pain in the butt to use and you have to be real careful to get good consistency at very low lift points.........Let me know what you come up with and I may want one too!
-Ben
-Ben
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: Best Value Head Work (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ben,
A formula Ford or any formula car is soooo much fun. If you get to this side of the planet we'll have to see if we can get you some laps in it, ....
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
Awesome..........I'd love that............trouble is it always seems that whenever you drive someone else's car whatever little thing that was getting ready to break for months decides to do it when you are in it! lol just always seems that way!
Ben,
A formula Ford or any formula car is soooo much fun. If you get to this side of the planet we'll have to see if we can get you some laps in it, ....
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
Awesome..........I'd love that............trouble is it always seems that whenever you drive someone else's car whatever little thing that was getting ready to break for months decides to do it when you are in it! lol just always seems that way!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 1
From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: B18 - (B20---Vtec)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by B20---Vtec »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thank TheOldOne.com ...for the valuable info here
Intake side of a B18C1 head we did last week for a high rpm (10,500K) .020" oversize circuit race engine heading to South America. We kept port size minimal (compared to our all-motor heads) for a broad torque curve.
Lift CFM Quality
.050" 52.2 45.0
.100" 98.2 64.0
.150" 145.2 364.2
.200" 185.7 600.0
.250" 218.9 835.1
.300" 250.1 1086.4
.350" 277.3 1333.0
.400" 299.7 1558.7
.450" 315.1 1710.0
.500" 328.4 1845.2
.550" 336.6 1935.5</TD></TR></TABLE>
curious --what size valve? bore size of the fixture? what kind of flow bench?
how many inches it was flowed at? Important info to include wouldn't you think?
I was also curious why we would flow a head that would never see much more than .400 lift to .550, not knocking you at all just curious
Intake side of a B18C1 head we did last week for a high rpm (10,500K) .020" oversize circuit race engine heading to South America. We kept port size minimal (compared to our all-motor heads) for a broad torque curve.
Lift CFM Quality
.050" 52.2 45.0
.100" 98.2 64.0
.150" 145.2 364.2
.200" 185.7 600.0
.250" 218.9 835.1
.300" 250.1 1086.4
.350" 277.3 1333.0
.400" 299.7 1558.7
.450" 315.1 1710.0
.500" 328.4 1845.2
.550" 336.6 1935.5</TD></TR></TABLE>
curious --what size valve? bore size of the fixture? what kind of flow bench?
how many inches it was flowed at? Important info to include wouldn't you think?
I was also curious why we would flow a head that would never see much more than .400 lift to .550, not knocking you at all just curious
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 6,183
Likes: 1
From: South Beach and Chicago, FL, USA
Re: B18 - (HEAD)
Jun 3s are .472" Lift and Toda Cs are .500"...Toda Dspec are .508"
I was wondering about the .550" Lift myself...would hafta be a custom grind.
Also, those flow #s are supposedly @ 28"
Suprdave
I was wondering about the .550" Lift myself...would hafta be a custom grind.
Also, those flow #s are supposedly @ 28"
Suprdave
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 1
From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: B18 - (Suprdave)
wow I didn't think they would use a cam that big-I stand corrected, considering the toda Dspec cam I would flow it to .550 to
what kind of duration are we looking at with these cams
what kind of duration are we looking at with these cams
The Old One
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 436
Likes: 0
From: Fort Worth, TX, USA
Re: B18 - (Suprdave)
The engine bore diameter was 82.0mm. Dummy cylinder under the head was exactly 82mm and 7" long. Valves were our stock diameter (flat-back) with single back angles. Measurements were recorded using a (resin) bell-mouth with entry radius calculated by taking the port entry cross sectional area, convering that area to a "round" configuration, and using R/D=.5. The length of the bell-mouth was constructed so the distance from the entry radius to the valve seat on the roof (long-side), equalled the same distance as measured on the port floor to the short-side of the seat.
Measurements were made at 28" H2O.
CFM data was corrected for atmoshperic conditions (factor was 1.016).
Flow element was a bulk-flow measuring unit was opriginally constructed to perform manifold testing for General Dynamics in the mid 70's and it's checked for calibration regularly at the Lockheed Martin's Ft. Worth facility.
I test to lifts beyond what the head might actually "see" in it's combination for reference sake. Note that the port's gaining fewer incremental CFM near peak lift, demonstrating that it's sizing is close to ideal. From .400" to .550", the total pressure drop increase was less than 2"H20, once again demonstating that there won't be much pumping loss associated with it.
Measurements were made at 28" H2O.
CFM data was corrected for atmoshperic conditions (factor was 1.016).
Flow element was a bulk-flow measuring unit was opriginally constructed to perform manifold testing for General Dynamics in the mid 70's and it's checked for calibration regularly at the Lockheed Martin's Ft. Worth facility.
I test to lifts beyond what the head might actually "see" in it's combination for reference sake. Note that the port's gaining fewer incremental CFM near peak lift, demonstrating that it's sizing is close to ideal. From .400" to .550", the total pressure drop increase was less than 2"H20, once again demonstating that there won't be much pumping loss associated with it.