Best Value Head Work
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (MAX_CFM)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MAX_CFM »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Everybody has there own package
It just takes time with these heads
I messed enuff of them up trying too get crazy with them
Im on track now but it just takes time as with any engine program
I would talk too larry@ Endyn
He knows his ****
Dont be fooled by the flamming on this board
Anyone who has done anything in racing
or has accually worked in "professional"racing
knows what this man can do
FACT!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Max-cfm,
Yea you're right about that, .. I was just looking to compare what I found to you guys findings.
I think I've got a fairly good package, .. made extra power
I have an all motor car that has this head with the welded exhaust ports, .. it didn't hurt it MUCH but it did seem to hurt a little. I'd like to talk them into a new head as I get the feeling this one wasn't really done properly, .. .. I'm getting much better flow numbers then this head.
Curtis
Everybody has there own package
It just takes time with these heads
I messed enuff of them up trying too get crazy with them
Im on track now but it just takes time as with any engine program
I would talk too larry@ Endyn
He knows his ****
Dont be fooled by the flamming on this board
Anyone who has done anything in racing
or has accually worked in "professional"racing
knows what this man can do
FACT!!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Max-cfm,
Yea you're right about that, .. I was just looking to compare what I found to you guys findings.
I think I've got a fairly good package, .. made extra power
I have an all motor car that has this head with the welded exhaust ports, .. it didn't hurt it MUCH but it did seem to hurt a little. I'd like to talk them into a new head as I get the feeling this one wasn't really done properly, .. .. I'm getting much better flow numbers then this head.
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (EFIGUY)
Ben,
Hummm, .. .. yea what you say makes sence now that I think about it, ... ...
I need to find a junk head to try this stuff on, .. anyone out there have a junker to donate????
About the velocity at the short turn, .. I'm not sure I'm clear, .. .. you found the V getting slower as the air exits the port past the short turn, .. .. OR the air is already slow AT the sort turn and never gains speed????? Exhaust port, .. right?
About not taking the guide out, .. .. are you suggesting NOT taking the guide out may be better??
At the moment I'm not finding that, .. .. ..
Curtis
Hummm, .. .. yea what you say makes sence now that I think about it, ... ...
I need to find a junk head to try this stuff on, .. anyone out there have a junker to donate????
About the velocity at the short turn, .. I'm not sure I'm clear, .. .. you found the V getting slower as the air exits the port past the short turn, .. .. OR the air is already slow AT the sort turn and never gains speed????? Exhaust port, .. right?
About not taking the guide out, .. .. are you suggesting NOT taking the guide out may be better??
At the moment I'm not finding that, .. .. ..
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: B18 - (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ben,
Hummm, .. .. yea what you say makes sence now that I think about it, ... ...
I need to find a junk head to try this stuff on, .. anyone out there have a junker to donate????
About the velocity at the short turn, .. I'm not sure I'm clear, .. .. you found the V getting slower as the air exits the port past the short turn, .. .. OR the air is already slow AT the sort turn and never gains speed????? Exhaust port, .. right?
No I was talking about the velocity on the intake side.....it was real slow in the port entry at the floor all the way past the center divider......but down at the botton of the short turn the velocity was much more uniform all the way around the valve..........I'm talking about just over 100 Ft/sec going up to over 250
About not taking the guide out, .. .. are you suggesting NOT taking the guide out may be better??
At the moment I'm not finding that, .. .. ..
Well, I can't say this for definate, but I wastalking with some guys the other day who feel the added flow gained from removing it isn't much more than what can be gained by spending lots of time there and certainly doesn't offset the loss of reliability in the guide........haven't tested the theory yet, so I'm still doing what we discussed.....time will tell
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
Hummm, .. .. yea what you say makes sence now that I think about it, ... ...
I need to find a junk head to try this stuff on, .. anyone out there have a junker to donate????
About the velocity at the short turn, .. I'm not sure I'm clear, .. .. you found the V getting slower as the air exits the port past the short turn, .. .. OR the air is already slow AT the sort turn and never gains speed????? Exhaust port, .. right?
No I was talking about the velocity on the intake side.....it was real slow in the port entry at the floor all the way past the center divider......but down at the botton of the short turn the velocity was much more uniform all the way around the valve..........I'm talking about just over 100 Ft/sec going up to over 250
About not taking the guide out, .. .. are you suggesting NOT taking the guide out may be better??
At the moment I'm not finding that, .. .. ..
Well, I can't say this for definate, but I wastalking with some guys the other day who feel the added flow gained from removing it isn't much more than what can be gained by spending lots of time there and certainly doesn't offset the loss of reliability in the guide........haven't tested the theory yet, so I'm still doing what we discussed.....time will tell
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (EFIGUY)
Ben,
Humm I'm not sure I wouls agree on the reliability issue of the guide removal, .. I'm only talking about taking the top off the guide, .. ..I'd bet it doesn't cause a problem.
Curtis
Humm I'm not sure I wouls agree on the reliability issue of the guide removal, .. I'm only talking about taking the top off the guide, .. ..I'd bet it doesn't cause a problem.
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: B18 - (Curtis Boggs)
I'm not disagreeing with you.......but I'm not gonna totally agree until I can prove one way or the other........it seems that there would be plenty of guide...........but there are some who really disagree.........
a note of intrest though.........when we hurt our GSR head in dallas and Larry helped us put it together we put all new valves in the head..........after only three passes, I had a HELL of a time getting the locks and retainers of because they were all mushroomed..........
I thought maybe it was valve float pounding them, but Larry thinks its becasue the guides were so worn out.......
I truly think it has to do with using the reground Web cams............with the complex geometry these things have using a curved and offset rocker, you cannot shorten the base circle wihout seriously affecting the geometry, as evidenced by the odd position of wear on our rocker arms.....
I think if Web were to look at the actual trace of motion at the valve it would scare them, harmonically speaking............there must be so many weird frequencies happening the poor valve springs can't keep up.
I've been working closely with Noel Manton to develop new valve springs that are designed specifically for the freq's of honda engines.........one set is under testing on Laskey's car this weekend, and another is on the Baja 500 engine we just finished building on friday........if things go well, I'll be marketing them soon.
Modified by EFIGUY at 10:04 PM 5/11/2003
a note of intrest though.........when we hurt our GSR head in dallas and Larry helped us put it together we put all new valves in the head..........after only three passes, I had a HELL of a time getting the locks and retainers of because they were all mushroomed..........
I thought maybe it was valve float pounding them, but Larry thinks its becasue the guides were so worn out.......
I truly think it has to do with using the reground Web cams............with the complex geometry these things have using a curved and offset rocker, you cannot shorten the base circle wihout seriously affecting the geometry, as evidenced by the odd position of wear on our rocker arms.....
I think if Web were to look at the actual trace of motion at the valve it would scare them, harmonically speaking............there must be so many weird frequencies happening the poor valve springs can't keep up.
I've been working closely with Noel Manton to develop new valve springs that are designed specifically for the freq's of honda engines.........one set is under testing on Laskey's car this weekend, and another is on the Baja 500 engine we just finished building on friday........if things go well, I'll be marketing them soon.
Modified by EFIGUY at 10:04 PM 5/11/2003
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 8,120
Likes: 3
From: Irvine, CA, usa
Re: B18 - (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I truly think it has to do with using the reground Web cams............with the complex geometry these things have using a curved rocker, you cannot shorten the base circle wihout seriously affecting the geometry, as evidenced by the odd position of wear on our rocker arms.....
</TD></TR></TABLE>Upon knocking those valves with a punch out of the head, it was apparent they were mushroomed over the full 360 degrees. I would think they would only mushroom over one side if the geometry was screwed up. Plus the previous set of valves in the head actually had a shorter stem than the new ones and they did not mushroom with many, many more runs on them. I still am a little confused over this as it doesn't seem like all 16 guides could be bad equally. Any ideas?
</TD></TR></TABLE>Upon knocking those valves with a punch out of the head, it was apparent they were mushroomed over the full 360 degrees. I would think they would only mushroom over one side if the geometry was screwed up. Plus the previous set of valves in the head actually had a shorter stem than the new ones and they did not mushroom with many, many more runs on them. I still am a little confused over this as it doesn't seem like all 16 guides could be bad equally. Any ideas?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: B18 - (earl)
Earl, we'll have to measure the actual clearance on those guides and also check to see how round they are.......the geomerty would normally wear one side of the guide more due to the side loading and stuff.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,608
Likes: 1
From: All around, De/Pa
Re: B18 - (MAX_CFM)
How would you go about measuring the wear onthe guides? Take an ID measurement? Im very interested in this also just cause of the potential problems I may be facing with having a so-called race port on a street driven car. My machinest said that since we went so extreme with the port and running into even taking material off the guides that they wouldnt last too long.
Interested in what you guys have to say more on this.
Interested in what you guys have to say more on this.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: B18 - (MAX_CFM)
I met some guys the other day who work for the Honda Techline service that Honda provides for their dealerships.........they said they are gonna get me a junked S2K head to play with! Cool
just what I need, another R&D project! lol
just what I need, another R&D project! lol
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: B18 - (93LSivic)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93LSivic »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How would you go about measuring the wear onthe guides? Take an ID measurement? Im very interested in this also just cause of the potential problems I may be facing with having a so-called race port on a street driven car. My machinest said that since we went so extreme with the port and running into even taking material off the guides that they wouldnt last too long.
Interested in what you guys have to say more on this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Measuring the guides requires a special inside micrometer that is very sensitive, more like an inside dial bore gauge........I have one made by sunnen that reads in .0001 increments, which I believe most do.......
Too little clearance and cause the guides to gall and seize, too much and the valve isn't held straight in the port, and also cannot transfer heat very well to the head, which shortens its life dramtically......
I know lots of guys like as much guide as they can get to maintain valve to seat location acurately, but there are others who will sacrifice this for more power with a bit less reliability.......in the end it just depends on the application.
Interested in what you guys have to say more on this.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Measuring the guides requires a special inside micrometer that is very sensitive, more like an inside dial bore gauge........I have one made by sunnen that reads in .0001 increments, which I believe most do.......
Too little clearance and cause the guides to gall and seize, too much and the valve isn't held straight in the port, and also cannot transfer heat very well to the head, which shortens its life dramtically......
I know lots of guys like as much guide as they can get to maintain valve to seat location acurately, but there are others who will sacrifice this for more power with a bit less reliability.......in the end it just depends on the application.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 1,669
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From: ORANGE COUNTY CALIFORNIA, US
Re: B18 - (EFIGUY)
Techline, Sat hello to Ross aka Rosco ''the old mule''. Ross and his brother Tom are OG hondatechs. These guys taught me a bunch, they have over 50 years honda exp. combined. 
I talked to a lot of the techline guys during my time as a Honda tech, these guys are on top of things
I talked to a lot of the techline guys during my time as a Honda tech, these guys are on top of things
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 6,093
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From: Anaheim, CA, USA
Re: B18 - (TREVER)
Our guides were ground down in the last head and lasted 2 seasons of abusive racing. They only got lessed up when we hurt a valve, otherwise it seemed good to go. I dont know how that would work for a street car though.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 4,295
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From: North East
Re: (Curtis Boggs)
Ok then , show and tell time. here's a pic of my BIG dollar intake port, bling bling.
I wont be offended if you tell me i got screwed either because we all live and learn.
What my real question to you guys with the flow benches is, does putting such a sharp edge on the port divider really hurt flow like some people say? Or are they all bandwagoners?
I wont be offended if you tell me i got screwed either because we all live and learn.
What my real question to you guys with the flow benches is, does putting such a sharp edge on the port divider really hurt flow like some people say? Or are they all bandwagoners?
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (earl)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by earl »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Upon knocking those valves with a punch out of the head, it was apparent they were mushroomed over the full 360 degrees. I would think they would only mushroom over one side if the geometry was screwed up. Plus the previous set of valves in the head actually had a shorter stem than the new ones and they did not mushroom with many, many more runs on them. I still am a little confused over this as it doesn't seem like all 16 guides could be bad equally. Any ideas?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Earl,
Coil bind in the spring, .. installed height, .. .. .. .. the only guide problem that would have caused this is a VERY tight guide the seized. If the older valves where shorter it could have something to do with the geometry, .. valves are made to rotate in the keepers but three runs, .. I think it's coil bind in the spring or the bottom of the retainer hitting the stem seal.
BTW on this subject of cutting the guide down, .. guys think about this for a second. We are talking about taking what .150" or so off the guide. If this was going to be a problem then the guide from the factory must be awfull weak to start with. I have some stuff well over two years old with the guide cut out, .. guide are just fine.
I think if people are seeing guide problems it's starting somewhere else, .. bad cam design, .geometry, .. etc.
As another solution I'm going to try knocking the guides out, .. porting the guide boss and roof the way I want it, .. then knock in a bronze guide with the top necked down. I'm doing that in the 1600 stuff and it's working well.
Curtis
Earl,
Coil bind in the spring, .. installed height, .. .. .. .. the only guide problem that would have caused this is a VERY tight guide the seized. If the older valves where shorter it could have something to do with the geometry, .. valves are made to rotate in the keepers but three runs, .. I think it's coil bind in the spring or the bottom of the retainer hitting the stem seal.
BTW on this subject of cutting the guide down, .. guys think about this for a second. We are talking about taking what .150" or so off the guide. If this was going to be a problem then the guide from the factory must be awfull weak to start with. I have some stuff well over two years old with the guide cut out, .. guide are just fine.
I think if people are seeing guide problems it's starting somewhere else, .. bad cam design, .geometry, .. etc.
As another solution I'm going to try knocking the guides out, .. porting the guide boss and roof the way I want it, .. then knock in a bronze guide with the top necked down. I'm doing that in the 1600 stuff and it's working well.
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: (Tbone)
Tbone,
Looks nice but I'm sure from reading this thread that looks are misleading.
To make an honest assesment it would need to be flowed and perhaps velocity mapped.
I'll be glad to flow it for you, .. no charge except shipping, .. if you let us post the flow figgures here.
As for the dividing wall, .. .. .. simple aero design 101, .. the leading edge should be rounded, .. the trailing edge should be knife edged. That's my $0.02 worth, .. you're opinion may vary, ..
Curtis
Looks nice but I'm sure from reading this thread that looks are misleading.
To make an honest assesment it would need to be flowed and perhaps velocity mapped.
I'll be glad to flow it for you, .. no charge except shipping, .. if you let us post the flow figgures here.
As for the dividing wall, .. .. .. simple aero design 101, .. the leading edge should be rounded, .. the trailing edge should be knife edged. That's my $0.02 worth, .. you're opinion may vary, ..
Curtis
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (EFIGUY)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by EFIGUY »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I met some guys the other day who work for the Honda Techline service that Honda provides for their dealerships.........they said they are gonna get me a junked S2K head to play with! Cool
just what I need, another R&D project! lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ben,
I've got a GT-3 S2K project going, .. I haven't started the real work yet but will in the next few weeks, .. we'll have to talk about this, .. I'll share what I find. Just so you know, .. it's a VERY good head, .. and look at the exhaust port shape compared to the deep valve bowl shapes we've been talking about.
Did the tech guys tell you about the seat probelm with the S2Ks ??? valve seats have been falling out! When we do a new race head build the plan it to replace ALL the valve seats to get the proper press fit.
Curtis
just what I need, another R&D project! lol</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ben,
I've got a GT-3 S2K project going, .. I haven't started the real work yet but will in the next few weeks, .. we'll have to talk about this, .. I'll share what I find. Just so you know, .. it's a VERY good head, .. and look at the exhaust port shape compared to the deep valve bowl shapes we've been talking about.
Did the tech guys tell you about the seat probelm with the S2Ks ??? valve seats have been falling out! When we do a new race head build the plan it to replace ALL the valve seats to get the proper press fit.
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 9,854
Likes: 4
From: Southern California, U.S.A.
Re: B18 - (Arturbo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Arturbo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have this S200 head, but I cant figure out what is wrong with it. Can you guys help me out? 
Its been bugging me for days and the car idles so funny. What the hell is it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The owner of the car can't drive and missed a shift?
Its been bugging me for days and the car idles so funny. What the hell is it?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
The owner of the car can't drive and missed a shift?
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: B18 - (Arturbo)
Art,
Note my earlier post, .. there is a problem with the seats falling out of S2K head, .. though I don't think that was the original cause of your problem, ... ..I agree with Dave, .. blinker fluid low, ..
just remove the sideways valve and buff with a 600 compound.
Curtis
Note my earlier post, .. there is a problem with the seats falling out of S2K head, .. though I don't think that was the original cause of your problem, ... ..I agree with Dave, .. blinker fluid low, ..
just remove the sideways valve and buff with a 600 compound.
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2000
Posts: 5,013
Likes: 0
From: Moorestown, NJ, USA
Re: B18 - (b19coupe)
HEHE. check out the valve being lifted from either being bent or shrap metal. cool.
i won't waste too much bandwidth so i'll post links. I'd love to have this stuff flowed.
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...7.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...1.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...2.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...3.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...4.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...8.jpg
i won't waste too much bandwidth so i'll post links. I'd love to have this stuff flowed.
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...7.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...1.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...2.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...3.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...4.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/pi...8.jpg