Best Value Head Work
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
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From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: re: (Curtis Boggs)
Ben,
Another thought, .. .. if you can set it up to flow your "fuel" through an injector, .. and you have your velocity maps from the flow bench, .. then you can try different injector locations to effect wet flow and find power. I know on the Toyota Atlanic engines they moved the injector from the top of the manifold to the bottom and about 1.5" farther away from the head. Made more power but effected low speed drivability, .. like low speed drivablity matter on a Tyota Atlantic race car, .. ;-)
Curtis
Another thought, .. .. if you can set it up to flow your "fuel" through an injector, .. and you have your velocity maps from the flow bench, .. then you can try different injector locations to effect wet flow and find power. I know on the Toyota Atlanic engines they moved the injector from the top of the manifold to the bottom and about 1.5" farther away from the head. Made more power but effected low speed drivability, .. like low speed drivablity matter on a Tyota Atlantic race car, .. ;-)
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 1
From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: re: (Curtis Boggs)
yea man I have done my fair share of Dart Big Chiefs they were my specialty at Musi's. Sonny came to our shop a few times, seemed to be a real cool guy I got the idea when it came to heads, he just had good people working for him vs him knowing it himself, he turned me on to using Pigs Putty epoxy which made my life alot easier. man do I miss listening to 707 cu.in. big block wing'in on the dyno every one should experience this just once in there life if you like domestics or not!
about the 60 cfm gain that was on the 2jz head I haven't put a honda head on the bench yet but I worked on the 2jz all winter, That was for Bullish and that was over the head we used last year not a stock one. We were discusssing the front of the port of the honda and ben said he found little gain there which interested me because there really isn't alot of material to play with there but on the 2jz the is a divider just like the honda(and most other import heads)and then there is a nother divder for the injector we are using a sheetmetal manifold and the injector is moved about a inch up so we decided that the injector divider was not needed and more volume was so I ground it out, well I didn't flow anything till this winter and learned I was going in the opposite direction, what I did was blend the injector divider into the center divider of the port made it a long thin line(I will take pics so you can better understand) it picked up 24-32 numbers everywhere! The port sounded so completly different it actually hurt my ears to flow it you could here the velocity. proof the bench does work !
about the 60 cfm gain that was on the 2jz head I haven't put a honda head on the bench yet but I worked on the 2jz all winter, That was for Bullish and that was over the head we used last year not a stock one. We were discusssing the front of the port of the honda and ben said he found little gain there which interested me because there really isn't alot of material to play with there but on the 2jz the is a divider just like the honda(and most other import heads)and then there is a nother divder for the injector we are using a sheetmetal manifold and the injector is moved about a inch up so we decided that the injector divider was not needed and more volume was so I ground it out, well I didn't flow anything till this winter and learned I was going in the opposite direction, what I did was blend the injector divider into the center divider of the port made it a long thin line(I will take pics so you can better understand) it picked up 24-32 numbers everywhere! The port sounded so completly different it actually hurt my ears to flow it you could here the velocity. proof the bench does work !
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From: NotCal
Re: re: (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Ben, .. that my test our new friendship, .. .. but if ya throw in $20, .. .. I hope Wei doesn't read this or I'm cooking my own dinner from now on.
LOL.........sorry if I was Wei out of line.......hope you like burned grilled cheese snadwiches!
About the wet flow testing, .. I don't know if I would pump that much fluid through a Superflow.
Remember that is made of mostly press board and has electrical motors in it, ...
I used to use a very large shop vac. I know you can't measure the air flow but with the Dychem you could see what the wet flow did compared to your dry flow velocity maps.
Oh I would STRONGLY suggest NOT using water, .. the specific gravity of the fluid has an effect on how it reacts in the port, .. not just the volum of fluid. You may want to find a fluid close to fuel then use it to thin black light paint down, .. then you can use a black light to see the fluid flow through the ports.
I wondered if the Bench would like the water.......thanks for the tip on the shop vac, and the dykem and blacklight.....great stuff
I did my tests this way and had cut several heads and manifolds open and put a plexi plate on it so I could see the entire flow path from the side.
Also I think there is a cheapie flow test thing that fits in a pipe, .. under $1000 for the hole thing, .. it's not very accurate ( despite what the ad says ) but it'll be perfict for your wet flow tests.
I'll try to find the name and web site.
I saw that thing at PRI a few times.......speaking of PRI, and of you guys gonna be there? We should all try and hook up if there is a few of us
Now as far as fuel flowing throught the port differently then air, .. YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! This IS the point of wet flow testing and you will learn things that the flow bench doesn't show you, .. and you WILL find power over a person who doesn't do wet flow.
One key thing to keep in mind when doing your wet flow testing and porting based on the findings. Fuel is heavier then air, AND DOESN'T CHANGE DIRECTION AS WELL.
Soo, .. if you find the back of the valve bowl has little puddles in it, .. it's because the air made the turn but the fuel came out of suspension and ran into the back of the bowl. VERY common.
Now where the fuel and air go during the turn at the short turn. The air will follow the path of least resistance, .. makes sense, .. and so will the fuel. The problem is the fuel is heavier then the air so it's "path of least resistance" is different. The air tends to go down the center or move towards the floor of the port and the fuel tends to move towards the roof or the long side of the radious.
That is so awesome........you probably just saved me about 3.54 light years worth of work........that's what this board is all about! I bet we're really burning some people's hides now! The NERVE of all of us thinking we canjust share information whenever we want..........and in PUBLIC no less!
Ben your idea of tuning the fuel system for this is an awsome idea, .. and I hope you'll keep us posted. This takes the idea of working on wet flow in the ports to the next level.
Man O man are we getting deep here, ... ..
I'm sure little guy in a lab somewhere has already done all this, but it just kinda popped in my head last night as I was driving home and it started to steamroll on me........I had to get the idea out there because I knew it wasn't perfect......and I knew you guys would be able to help shape my game plan!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ben, .. that my test our new friendship, .. .. but if ya throw in $20, .. .. I hope Wei doesn't read this or I'm cooking my own dinner from now on.
LOL.........sorry if I was Wei out of line.......hope you like burned grilled cheese snadwiches!
About the wet flow testing, .. I don't know if I would pump that much fluid through a Superflow.
Remember that is made of mostly press board and has electrical motors in it, ...
I used to use a very large shop vac. I know you can't measure the air flow but with the Dychem you could see what the wet flow did compared to your dry flow velocity maps.
Oh I would STRONGLY suggest NOT using water, .. the specific gravity of the fluid has an effect on how it reacts in the port, .. not just the volum of fluid. You may want to find a fluid close to fuel then use it to thin black light paint down, .. then you can use a black light to see the fluid flow through the ports.
I wondered if the Bench would like the water.......thanks for the tip on the shop vac, and the dykem and blacklight.....great stuff
I did my tests this way and had cut several heads and manifolds open and put a plexi plate on it so I could see the entire flow path from the side.
Also I think there is a cheapie flow test thing that fits in a pipe, .. under $1000 for the hole thing, .. it's not very accurate ( despite what the ad says ) but it'll be perfict for your wet flow tests.
I'll try to find the name and web site.
I saw that thing at PRI a few times.......speaking of PRI, and of you guys gonna be there? We should all try and hook up if there is a few of us
Now as far as fuel flowing throught the port differently then air, .. YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD! This IS the point of wet flow testing and you will learn things that the flow bench doesn't show you, .. and you WILL find power over a person who doesn't do wet flow.
One key thing to keep in mind when doing your wet flow testing and porting based on the findings. Fuel is heavier then air, AND DOESN'T CHANGE DIRECTION AS WELL.
Soo, .. if you find the back of the valve bowl has little puddles in it, .. it's because the air made the turn but the fuel came out of suspension and ran into the back of the bowl. VERY common.
Now where the fuel and air go during the turn at the short turn. The air will follow the path of least resistance, .. makes sense, .. and so will the fuel. The problem is the fuel is heavier then the air so it's "path of least resistance" is different. The air tends to go down the center or move towards the floor of the port and the fuel tends to move towards the roof or the long side of the radious.
That is so awesome........you probably just saved me about 3.54 light years worth of work........that's what this board is all about! I bet we're really burning some people's hides now! The NERVE of all of us thinking we canjust share information whenever we want..........and in PUBLIC no less!
Ben your idea of tuning the fuel system for this is an awsome idea, .. and I hope you'll keep us posted. This takes the idea of working on wet flow in the ports to the next level.
Man O man are we getting deep here, ... ..
I'm sure little guy in a lab somewhere has already done all this, but it just kinda popped in my head last night as I was driving home and it started to steamroll on me........I had to get the idea out there because I knew it wasn't perfect......and I knew you guys would be able to help shape my game plan!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: re: (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Ben,
Another thought, .. .. if you can set it up to flow your "fuel" through an injector, .. and you have your velocity maps from the flow bench, .. then you can try different injector locations to effect wet flow and find power. I know on the Toyota Atlanic engines they moved the injector from the top of the manifold to the bottom and about 1.5" farther away from the head. Made more power but effected low speed drivability, .. like low speed drivablity matter on a Tyota Atlantic race car, .. ;-)
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
This will be a great idea........but first I think I wanna get the basic wet flow stuff under my belt and understand what's going on with it........then I'll test injector locations and stuff.......I have a signal generator program that works with the Autronic EFI systems that I sell..........it allows you to use a parallel port on a laptop to run the cyl pulse, and cyl ref signal to the ECU in oreder to test all the outputs before starting the engine..........this will be cool because I can closely regulate the pulse widths and keep that constant while we watch other things........
My very close friend Noel Manton designed an engine called the "All Star 708" which was a marine based EFI big-block.......we've had a few good conversations about them doing tests on the dyno and moving around the injector location.....I'll have to hit him up and get him on this thing..........we have a good start going here though.......TONS of work to do.........so if any of you other head guys wanna get in and help out..........I'm sure we can have a hell of a porting party!
Here's to the Honda-Tech head porting club! 
Another thought, .. .. if you can set it up to flow your "fuel" through an injector, .. and you have your velocity maps from the flow bench, .. then you can try different injector locations to effect wet flow and find power. I know on the Toyota Atlanic engines they moved the injector from the top of the manifold to the bottom and about 1.5" farther away from the head. Made more power but effected low speed drivability, .. like low speed drivablity matter on a Tyota Atlantic race car, .. ;-)
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
This will be a great idea........but first I think I wanna get the basic wet flow stuff under my belt and understand what's going on with it........then I'll test injector locations and stuff.......I have a signal generator program that works with the Autronic EFI systems that I sell..........it allows you to use a parallel port on a laptop to run the cyl pulse, and cyl ref signal to the ECU in oreder to test all the outputs before starting the engine..........this will be cool because I can closely regulate the pulse widths and keep that constant while we watch other things........
My very close friend Noel Manton designed an engine called the "All Star 708" which was a marine based EFI big-block.......we've had a few good conversations about them doing tests on the dyno and moving around the injector location.....I'll have to hit him up and get him on this thing..........we have a good start going here though.......TONS of work to do.........so if any of you other head guys wanna get in and help out..........I'm sure we can have a hell of a porting party!
Here's to the Honda-Tech head porting club!
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: re: (EFIGUY)
David,
hahhhh the divider in the manifold trick, .. ;-) I've wanted to try this on the Toyota Atlantic engines, ..
About us meeting at PRI, .. Oh yes, .. I'll be there and we SHOULD get together.
Ben, .. if you think some guy in a lab somewhere already did this stuff you may be right, .. but remember a good deal of income can he had for a cylinder head guy who does consulting for the major manufacturers.
Ben, do you want to split some of the work up?? if so how would we do it, .. .. I'm swamped but would like to have SOME of the fun you are.
Curtis
hahhhh the divider in the manifold trick, .. ;-) I've wanted to try this on the Toyota Atlantic engines, ..
About us meeting at PRI, .. Oh yes, .. I'll be there and we SHOULD get together.
Ben, .. if you think some guy in a lab somewhere already did this stuff you may be right, .. but remember a good deal of income can he had for a cylinder head guy who does consulting for the major manufacturers.
Ben, do you want to split some of the work up?? if so how would we do it, .. .. I'm swamped but would like to have SOME of the fun you are.
Curtis
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: NotCal
Re: re: (Curtis Boggs)
I wouldn't mind spiltting it up a bit, only I'm not really sure how to go about doing that while still getting consistent results? I'm open to ideas though......let's see what we can come up with? Maybe we all work on the same head and each do different things as part of the end goal? I dunno....what do you think?
Truthfully though...........the only work I should be splitting up with you right this moment is the photography for this damn book! The deadline is blazing towards me and I'm not even close......plus I'm preparing for the seminar at the same time! If you still wanna help, give me a call sometime today and I'll see what I can have you help me with.
-Ben
Truthfully though...........the only work I should be splitting up with you right this moment is the photography for this damn book! The deadline is blazing towards me and I'm not even close......plus I'm preparing for the seminar at the same time! If you still wanna help, give me a call sometime today and I'll see what I can have you help me with.
-Ben
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Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,719
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: re: (Curtis Boggs)
regarding the "divider in the manifold trick" i have just built a couple exhaust manifolds using pulse dividers which are not full length, rather half length and still retain a traditional turbine inlet. I am eager to see how these work. Also some SAE paper recommendations, these may save you a whole lot of time, i know theyve saved me light years...
My personal favorite (being a manifold guy) is SAE paper 972775 if you have 9$ laying around its kind of interesting. I believe it should pick up a good bit of spool on a turbine. Might not interest any head guys tho.
also to save you some searching time --
Document Number: 950044
Title: A New Method to Analyze Fuel Behavior in a Spark Ignition Engine
Document Number: 960115
Title: Spray Targeting Inside a Production-Type Intake Port of a 4-Valve Gasoline Engine
Document Number: 2000-01-1260
Title: A Nonlinear Wall-Wetting Model for the Complete Operating Region of a Sequential Fuel-Injected SI Engine
Document Number: 941931
Title: A Study of Air to Fuel Transient Response and Compensation With Different Fuels
Document Number: 961186
Title: A New Port and Cylinder Wall Wetting Model to Predict Transient Air/Fuel Excursions in a Port Fuel Injected Engine
If any of you ever decide to scan a port, i have access to some pretty powerful CFD software (or you can alwyas get it pirated from malaysia) but modeling the port can save you a lot of time/heads and you may find that the modern day CFD software is very very accurate. It does require a learning curve, but what fun is it if everyone can run it
My personal favorite (being a manifold guy) is SAE paper 972775 if you have 9$ laying around its kind of interesting. I believe it should pick up a good bit of spool on a turbine. Might not interest any head guys tho.
also to save you some searching time --
Document Number: 950044
Title: A New Method to Analyze Fuel Behavior in a Spark Ignition Engine
Document Number: 960115
Title: Spray Targeting Inside a Production-Type Intake Port of a 4-Valve Gasoline Engine
Document Number: 2000-01-1260
Title: A Nonlinear Wall-Wetting Model for the Complete Operating Region of a Sequential Fuel-Injected SI Engine
Document Number: 941931
Title: A Study of Air to Fuel Transient Response and Compensation With Different Fuels
Document Number: 961186
Title: A New Port and Cylinder Wall Wetting Model to Predict Transient Air/Fuel Excursions in a Port Fuel Injected Engine
If any of you ever decide to scan a port, i have access to some pretty powerful CFD software (or you can alwyas get it pirated from malaysia) but modeling the port can save you a lot of time/heads and you may find that the modern day CFD software is very very accurate. It does require a learning curve, but what fun is it if everyone can run it
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
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From: NotCal
Re: re: (Suprdave)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'll be at PRI this year...Ben and I are already going to burn DFW to the ground in
June, so we can do the same thing in Indy.
Suprdave </TD></TR></TABLE>
Preach it brother
And Geoff........great detective work sifting through all the SAE stuff to get just the right stuff we needed......you rock buddy!
Keep us informed on that new header........and say hi to your friends Staci and Gina for me and Mike! lol
June, so we can do the same thing in Indy.
Suprdave </TD></TR></TABLE>
Preach it brother
And Geoff........great detective work sifting through all the SAE stuff to get just the right stuff we needed......you rock buddy!
Keep us informed on that new header........and say hi to your friends Staci and Gina for me and Mike!
lol
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 178
Likes: 0
From: Lorton, VA, usa
Re: re: (FFgeoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FFgeoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
If any of you ever decide to scan a port, i have access to some pretty powerful CFD software (or you can alwyas get it pirated from malaysia) but modeling the port can save you a lot of time/heads and you may find that the modern day CFD software is very very accurate. It does require a learning curve, but what fun is it if everyone can run it </TD></TR></TABLE>
Geoff,
I am VERY , VERY interested in the CFD software, .. can you tell me where to "borrow" a copy to play with ??????
Oh and thanks for diggin through the SAE papers, ..
Curtis
If any of you ever decide to scan a port, i have access to some pretty powerful CFD software (or you can alwyas get it pirated from malaysia) but modeling the port can save you a lot of time/heads and you may find that the modern day CFD software is very very accurate. It does require a learning curve, but what fun is it if everyone can run it
</TD></TR></TABLE>Geoff,
I am VERY , VERY interested in the CFD software, .. can you tell me where to "borrow" a copy to play with ??????
Oh and thanks for diggin through the SAE papers, ..
Curtis
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: re: (Curtis Boggs)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Curtis Boggs »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Geoff,
I am VERY , VERY interested in the CFD software, .. can you tell me where to "borrow" a copy to play with ??????
Oh and thanks for diggin through the SAE papers, ..
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah-yeah.......me too! Although I have a pretty full plate at the moment.....oh well...sleep is for the weak!
Geoff,
I am VERY , VERY interested in the CFD software, .. can you tell me where to "borrow" a copy to play with ??????
Oh and thanks for diggin through the SAE papers, ..
Curtis</TD></TR></TABLE>
yeah-yeah.......me too! Although I have a pretty full plate at the moment.....oh well...sleep is for the weak!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 5,608
Likes: 1
From: All around, De/Pa
Re: re: (EFIGUY)
I would suggest Eds Racing Heads in Pa.
He does excellent work and is very reputable, just not a big name in the industry. Some of us guys here knows about him
Modified by 93LSivic at 2:29 AM 5/10/2003
He does excellent work and is very reputable, just not a big name in the industry. Some of us guys here knows about him
Modified by 93LSivic at 2:29 AM 5/10/2003
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 4,719
Likes: 0
From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: re: (Curtis Boggs)
for their website --
http://www.adina.com/products.shtml
look at this link:
http://www.geocities.com/andre...s.htm funny pic
Also a modeled 4 valve engine:
http://www.fluent.com/about/ne...4.htm
http://www.cfd-online.com/
ill see what i can do for you. hope this isnt link overload
Modified by FFgeoff at 5:31 AM 5/10/2003
http://www.adina.com/products.shtml
look at this link:
http://www.geocities.com/andre...s.htm funny pic
Also a modeled 4 valve engine:
http://www.fluent.com/about/ne...4.htm
http://www.cfd-online.com/
ill see what i can do for you. hope this isnt link overload
Modified by FFgeoff at 5:31 AM 5/10/2003
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: re: (FFgeoff)
i think it will be next to impossible for me to get that stuff from school, but ill try tomorrow.
most basic CFD programs will deal with incompressible navier-stokes stuff, but quite obviously the flows you are looking at *will* be compressible, which necessitates a serious CFD package. Finding something free/shareware is pretty rare in this case.
also a little tidbit on KIVA, a package recommended by a professor of mine (although it is very difficult to learn)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
KIVA
Authors: Los Alamos National Lab
Purpose: "A transient, three-dimensional, multiphase, multicomponent code for the analysis of chemically reacting flows with sprays... The code uses an Arbitrary Lagrangian Eulerian (ALE) methodology on a staggered grid... The range of validity of the code extends from low speeds to supersonic flows for both laminar and turbulent regimes. Arbitrary numbers of species and chemical reactions are allowed. A stochastic particle method is used to calculate evaporating liquid sprays, including the effects of droplet collisions and aerodynamic breakups. Although specifically designed for performing internal combustion engine calculations, the modularity of the code allows for easy modifications for solving a variety of hydrodynamics problems involving chemical reactions. The code has found a widespread application in the automotive industry."
Methods: Unknown
Grid Type: Structured
Source Code Available: Yes
Source Code Language: FORTRAN
Export Controlled: No
Parallel Version: Unknown
Platforms: UNIX (Silicon Graphics, Sun, HP, Linux, DEC)
Cost: $670
Note: The above price is the standard US price as of February 2000. I am informed that the price outside the US is about $3,000. Two interesting facts:
"Run time requirements depend on the problem size and the system configuration. On the Cray Y-MP simple 2-D calculations might run to completion in a minute; a 3-D cold-flow two-stroke engine calculation with 20,000 grid points requires on the order of 1.5 hours for one crankshaft rotation; and many hours may be required for larger meshes, runs with many spray particles, complex chemistry, and strong shears. Comparative runs on the IBM RSIC 6000, Silicon Graphics, and Sun workstations ranged from two to six times the Cray Y-MP times, with most being greater by a factor of three or four."
"In addition to the main hydro program (KIVA3), supplied are a basic preprocessor for grid generation (K3PREP) and a graphics postprocessor (K3POST)...These two programs will be adequate for many users, but serve as models for the more experienced user, who will replace them with packages tailored to their own needs."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read what one user, Guillaume Thibaudeau, has to say about KIVA3. Much of this applies to free and low-cost CFD codes in general.
"My experience with Kiva began about 7 months ago. I had some experience with similarly-made codes from a couple of years back but this did not really help, the differences being too great. To begin with, Kiva is not for the easily-discouraged. Although an industrially-used code, it is not user-friendly. If you are looking for a nice graphical ergonomic user interface that prompts you for the required information and identifies the inconsistencies in real time, this is not for you.
"We bought Kiva for two simple reasons, a technical reason and a philosophical one: technically it is so far the only code capable of at least coming close to doing the kind of work we want to do at the pressures we want, and philosophically, it is an open code. By that last criterion I mean that you have the source code: once you buy Kiva, it belongs to you forever, no licences here! This means you can change the code, its inner working, its mathematical models, etc. as you choose.
"This proved to be very nice since some of the things we want to do are simply not obtainable directly, they are derived from the dynamical information calculated by Kiva. I therefore had to develop the required software and make it interact with Kiva, which required some modifications of Kiva. This would simply not have been possible using another, closed, code.
"I recommend Kiva for those who like to keep in touch with what they are doing. The documentation is ok, but not really made for newcomers. You have to know where to look, even for compiling! In fact I searched for help on the web and got in touch with a couple of people, one in particular, who taught me the basics of Kiva. This proved extremely useful in handling the basic mechanics of the code.
"Kiva being an open code, there is an active Kiva comunity out there, improving the code on a daily basis. I recommend you contact these people if you are interested in using Kiva. Also, it is a reference in the field of hydrodynamics and sprays, in particular concerning the modelling of internal combustion engines. In fact it is used at the heart of other, more expensive, licence-based, commercial, closed codes. Watch out also that, not being the most openly advertised code, it seems, but seems only, not to be catered for too well when it comes to pre and post-processors. Lots to say here, but it would take too long. Feel free to mail me for further info.
I would recommend going for Kiva, I believe it is worth the trouble. I’ll stop here." May 2000.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
Another note -- 2 summers ago i was up in detroit at GM, and they were doing flow analysis on an LS1 head. Their supercomputer with god knows how many processors was tied up for 3 1/2 months, but every single molecule of fuel was named and mapped, for every step of the combustion process... it was amazing to see it fully modeled.
most basic CFD programs will deal with incompressible navier-stokes stuff, but quite obviously the flows you are looking at *will* be compressible, which necessitates a serious CFD package. Finding something free/shareware is pretty rare in this case.
also a little tidbit on KIVA, a package recommended by a professor of mine (although it is very difficult to learn)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
KIVA
Authors: Los Alamos National Lab
Purpose: "A transient, three-dimensional, multiphase, multicomponent code for the analysis of chemically reacting flows with sprays... The code uses an Arbitrary Lagrangian Eulerian (ALE) methodology on a staggered grid... The range of validity of the code extends from low speeds to supersonic flows for both laminar and turbulent regimes. Arbitrary numbers of species and chemical reactions are allowed. A stochastic particle method is used to calculate evaporating liquid sprays, including the effects of droplet collisions and aerodynamic breakups. Although specifically designed for performing internal combustion engine calculations, the modularity of the code allows for easy modifications for solving a variety of hydrodynamics problems involving chemical reactions. The code has found a widespread application in the automotive industry."
Methods: Unknown
Grid Type: Structured
Source Code Available: Yes
Source Code Language: FORTRAN
Export Controlled: No
Parallel Version: Unknown
Platforms: UNIX (Silicon Graphics, Sun, HP, Linux, DEC)
Cost: $670
Note: The above price is the standard US price as of February 2000. I am informed that the price outside the US is about $3,000. Two interesting facts:
"Run time requirements depend on the problem size and the system configuration. On the Cray Y-MP simple 2-D calculations might run to completion in a minute; a 3-D cold-flow two-stroke engine calculation with 20,000 grid points requires on the order of 1.5 hours for one crankshaft rotation; and many hours may be required for larger meshes, runs with many spray particles, complex chemistry, and strong shears. Comparative runs on the IBM RSIC 6000, Silicon Graphics, and Sun workstations ranged from two to six times the Cray Y-MP times, with most being greater by a factor of three or four."
"In addition to the main hydro program (KIVA3), supplied are a basic preprocessor for grid generation (K3PREP) and a graphics postprocessor (K3POST)...These two programs will be adequate for many users, but serve as models for the more experienced user, who will replace them with packages tailored to their own needs."
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Read what one user, Guillaume Thibaudeau, has to say about KIVA3. Much of this applies to free and low-cost CFD codes in general.
"My experience with Kiva began about 7 months ago. I had some experience with similarly-made codes from a couple of years back but this did not really help, the differences being too great. To begin with, Kiva is not for the easily-discouraged. Although an industrially-used code, it is not user-friendly. If you are looking for a nice graphical ergonomic user interface that prompts you for the required information and identifies the inconsistencies in real time, this is not for you.
"We bought Kiva for two simple reasons, a technical reason and a philosophical one: technically it is so far the only code capable of at least coming close to doing the kind of work we want to do at the pressures we want, and philosophically, it is an open code. By that last criterion I mean that you have the source code: once you buy Kiva, it belongs to you forever, no licences here! This means you can change the code, its inner working, its mathematical models, etc. as you choose.
"This proved to be very nice since some of the things we want to do are simply not obtainable directly, they are derived from the dynamical information calculated by Kiva. I therefore had to develop the required software and make it interact with Kiva, which required some modifications of Kiva. This would simply not have been possible using another, closed, code.
"I recommend Kiva for those who like to keep in touch with what they are doing. The documentation is ok, but not really made for newcomers. You have to know where to look, even for compiling! In fact I searched for help on the web and got in touch with a couple of people, one in particular, who taught me the basics of Kiva. This proved extremely useful in handling the basic mechanics of the code.
"Kiva being an open code, there is an active Kiva comunity out there, improving the code on a daily basis. I recommend you contact these people if you are interested in using Kiva. Also, it is a reference in the field of hydrodynamics and sprays, in particular concerning the modelling of internal combustion engines. In fact it is used at the heart of other, more expensive, licence-based, commercial, closed codes. Watch out also that, not being the most openly advertised code, it seems, but seems only, not to be catered for too well when it comes to pre and post-processors. Lots to say here, but it would take too long. Feel free to mail me for further info.
I would recommend going for Kiva, I believe it is worth the trouble. I’ll stop here." May 2000.
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Another note -- 2 summers ago i was up in detroit at GM, and they were doing flow analysis on an LS1 head. Their supercomputer with god knows how many processors was tied up for 3 1/2 months, but every single molecule of fuel was named and mapped, for every step of the combustion process... it was amazing to see it fully modeled.
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: re: (FFgeoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FFgeoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Another note -- 2 summers ago i was up in detroit at GM, and they were doing flow analysis on an LS1 head. Their supercomputer with god knows how many processors was tied up for 3 1/2 months, but every single molecule of fuel was named and mapped, for every step of the combustion process... it was amazing to see it fully modeled.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Awww, comw on Geoff.....you and I could do that with a pad and pencil in what......like an hour and a half?
Look out for this guy fellas..........he's gonna be a force to be reckoned with in the manifold business!
Another note -- 2 summers ago i was up in detroit at GM, and they were doing flow analysis on an LS1 head. Their supercomputer with god knows how many processors was tied up for 3 1/2 months, but every single molecule of fuel was named and mapped, for every step of the combustion process... it was amazing to see it fully modeled.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Awww, comw on Geoff.....you and I could do that with a pad and pencil in what......like an hour and a half?
Look out for this guy fellas..........he's gonna be a force to be reckoned with in the manifold business!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 921
Likes: 1
From: Hamilton, NJ, USA
Re: re: (EFIGUY)
no doubt geoff is one bad dude! I wish I knew how to use that kind of software or even had access to something like that! I was told that because of the said exercises on the LS1 head it was determined you could run a lot more duration because of the cathedral design the veloctiy in the port would sustain longer than a conventional square port design , any truth to this? I don't know if any of the other guys have messed with the LS1 but it is probably one of the baddest heads to ever come from the factory!
BTW-----PRI!!!! I am so ready for it, I usually stay with a friend of mine who works for jacque lazier(right front tire man) and a few buddies from school one works with Dick Maskins(pro stock) and the other works for Mclaren real cool guys long time from now but we'll keep in touch!
BTW-----PRI!!!! I am so ready for it, I usually stay with a friend of mine who works for jacque lazier(right front tire man) and a few buddies from school one works with Dick Maskins(pro stock) and the other works for Mclaren real cool guys long time from now but we'll keep in touch!
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 740
Likes: 0
From: NotCal
Re: re: (HEAD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
BTW-----PRI!!!! I am so ready for it, I usually stay with a friend of mine who works for jacque lazier(right front tire man) and a few buddies from school one works with Dick Maskins(pro stock) and the other works for Mclaren real cool guys long time from now but we'll keep in touch!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is gonna be one kick-*** PRI........we'll all have to go out and have a big 'ol dinner somewhere and maybe hit up the local go-cart track or something too?
Come on december!
BTW-----PRI!!!! I am so ready for it, I usually stay with a friend of mine who works for jacque lazier(right front tire man) and a few buddies from school one works with Dick Maskins(pro stock) and the other works for Mclaren real cool guys long time from now but we'll keep in touch!
</TD></TR></TABLE>
This is gonna be one kick-*** PRI........we'll all have to go out and have a big 'ol dinner somewhere and maybe hit up the local go-cart track or something too?
Come on december!