Experience would be helpfull, I'm building a B series and have a gsr and an ls block as a base to choose from ill be using a gsr head with no vtec mechanisms,is there a better R/S ratio that would better suit a high revving motor with boost, I know that it will lose a little down low but thats ok because there will be no power being made below 4k, im decided on a valvetrain setup that will simplify and lighten moving valvetrain parts and im building a new bottom end with all forged internals and now that im set on making power in the top end there has to be a better R/S ratio for this type of build.I understand this subject enough to know that i dont want to spend alot of money to make top end power and not have a bottom end that can keep up with the revs.I know that forged internals will be strong enough to take alot of boost.I could just replace with all factory sized parts but i dont want to, and i figured that somebody on here has built a similar setup, or at least has the knowledge to share about building a bottom end that will suit my needs.Im leaning towards using the gsr block because it is all ready for the the head plus the oil squirters,instead of trying to do some kind of ls/vtec with no vtec ... idonno,already a little complicated,figured using the gsr block would just make it a little easier.(thanks jdm96specctr)
Also how is my oil pressure going to be affected and if its going to be affected in a bad way how can it be corrected?better oil pump, how does this work?Also i know how boost reacts with static compression so how will my compression ratio effect my setup and and its ability to rev or will this have no affect as long as the tune is correct,im thinking @ 9.1 -10.1cr range for my pistons , or again does it come down to the tune? Any honest help is appreciated but if yer gonna be a jackass or just plain dont know plz dont reply,thanks

 

any bottom end tech guys out there????If you think im not understanding this I might not be completly ive got the basic knowledge of the how the r/s ratio affects things Im trying to figure out if a certain ratio will better a turbo application,kinda like an indy car or cart series car,not quite to that extreme but in that of a high revving turbo motor direction.Can someone tell me if im understanding this correctly, but a shorter stroke should in turn spool a turbo faster being that the revs would be higher more of the time.I definetly am goig to go with 83-84mm bore,and i think that going with a longer stroke would give e opposite results,correct me if im wrong

 

There's not a huge difference and to tell you the truth it's not that huge of a deal. To be honest, of all the turbo motors we've ever built all have been B18C's with the exception of a couple B16's and LSVTEC's. The shorter stroke, slightly more effecient motors make power up higher but the downside to them is the lack of overall power and torque. I personally would just stick with the GSR block, you lose 1.8mm's of stroke which bumps the rod ratio up 0.04:1, and you've got a better crank to work with. You also don't have to run a gay external oil feed to the head. I really don't understand why you don't want to run VTEC. Is this a street car? Just about everyone and even all the top SFWD cars still run it so why be different? Taking a little rotational mass out of the cam isn't going to make as much of a difference as losing bottom end power. What cams were you planning on running anyway? Don't worry about the oil pump, you should be just fine with a factory pump and maybe an aftermarket gear. If you've got lots of money to waste then toss a dry sump on it.

Regarding your second post, stroke isn't going to relate at all to turbo spool in that sense. This is not certain either but an increased stroke, generates a little more displacement, flows more air, and in turn should spool faster. ...but it's not like going an LS crank over a GSR is going to make your turbo roll in sooner.

My $0.02, stick with the GSR and VTEC!

 

OK cool you seem to know alot so im going to ask, with that said im going to build off my gsr block,ive seen the gsr crank hold 800 hp so that should be plenty sufficient,i also own a b18b that was in my teg i spun a rod bearing and yeah you know, that was why i was planning on doin the ls w/ the gsr head, This car is NOT (well maybe once or twice hehe) going to be a street car ,so low end streetability isnt really a concern,I'm not running vtec because of this, i know alot of people still use it but its something that i find i could gain more power/rpm,I've been planning on using ferrea's rocker follower setup w/crane cams im not sure of the part # but its a split-duration cam,w/ a turbo profile,its exhaust cam has a shorter duration to spool a turbo quicker.so it claims.A highly efficient engine would make a taller power band? and thats exactly what i want, but the lack of overall power/tourqe isnt good,? but would it make up for it boosting and revving?And this is not between the LS vs. GSR rod ratio anymore i want something better for my setup,A longer stroke would make more displacement, i get that, but wont it take longer for the whole assembly to make 1 rotation as opposed to a shorter stroke w/ 1 rotation the shorter one will spin faster, correct?What i meant about the shorter stroke spooling a turbo faster, is that with the shorter stroke the motor will rev faster and maybe roll into boost before that of the GSR,making the powerband longer with the higher revving head+boost.I understand that my power is going to be made were vtec is but my head will work more efficiently with less mechanisms holding it together.I find no need for the vtec system in this combination, even though its a beautiful thing yes.By the time i get the block back from the machine shop it will have an 83mm bore so theres a little displacement for some added tourqe, sleeved of course an anything else my machinest recomends to bullet proof my block ie: pistons/rods/studs/bolts everything, and a dry sump oil pump sounds like it would only help, so it might be worth the money for reassurance.This car is not going to be strictly a drag car, idont want to win any national title break world records in any class i just want my idea of fun to be possible n anythings possible w/ money I want a car that will rip down the 1/4 mile yes but a little time spent on a roadcourse or 2 would be fun. no?If you have any suggestions that might better this setup im open but I like what ive got goin on. Were all different thats what makes this place we call earth spin.

 

Yea, it's totally cool to be different so we'll just leave it at that. Regarding this...

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by cxVtecC1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
A longer stroke would make more displacement, i get that, but wont it take longer for the whole assembly to make 1 rotation as opposed to a shorter stroke w/ 1 rotation the shorter one will spin faster, correct?What i meant about the shorter stroke spooling a turbo faster, is that with the shorter stroke the motor will rev faster and maybe roll into boost before that of the GSR,making the powerband longer with the higher revving head+boost.</TD></TR></TABLE>

A longer stroke DOES NOT affect the length of time it takes to make a full rotation of the crank. Think of it this way, if two motors are idling at 1000rpm, one with a GSR stroke (87.2mm) and the other with a B16's stroke (77.4) just because the GSR has a longer stroke doesn't mean it takes longer to make a rotation in tern lowering that particular motors revs. It's not like one crank has to do a 360 degree rotation and the other doesn't. Now if you were measuring the distance covered in a full rotation a longer stroke will have to travel further measured at the outermost point of the crank but it all happens in the SAME amount of time. I understand what you're saying about a shorter stroke motor in that there's less rotational mass to rev up but there's really not going to be that much difference in throttle responce and if the stroke is pulling displacement as apose to another motor which isn't, if they're supporting the same size turbo the bigger motor is still going to come in faster. Again I wouldn't really mess with the stroke, it's not at all worth it to drop the stroke, make peakier power, but less overall. Just stick with something close to the GSR and you'll be fine. We rev our high boost 600whp+ street motors to 10k all time time (they're street motors) and that's about where you'll stop making power anyway. I've seen stock GSR cranks hold a lot more than 800hp too so don't let that worry you.

 

Thanks you very much for the time, i understand what your saying now alittle more clearly about the rotation of the crank , much appreciated.Can i ask are those 600hp motors, b18 or b16 if they are the b18c then did you choose to stay with the gsr r/s ratio or did you change it to make power to 10k?Also if im understanding it right its not so much the revving of the motor that will get the turbo to spool faster, its just packing more air into the chamber will allow for the turbo start rollin in to boost not neccisarily were the car is revving at a certain point???I've heard that if you start making displacement bigger ie:@2.0 2.2,The engine wont make power as high in the rpm range is this true or false?Because if that was true that would kinda counter the rest of my setup.If it is false then This setup could be more badass.
Say i leave the stroke alone or maybe a 87.0-86.8mm something close to the gsr,and bored to 83mm this would spool the turbo faster still correct?and if the stroke was alittle shorter it would rev a little higher/faster (because its boosting sooner w/bore displacement)?But would the bigger bore make up for the lost tourqe in revving higher with only a slightly smaller stroke, making a longer powerband?
600whp street car sounds really nice maybe even a little more would be suitable for me I dont want to rev the car past @10700-11000, so i think if im understanding you correctly im on the right path to do it.About were do those 10k rpm street cars start movin?Oh yah I wanna thank you for answering my maybe stupid Questions, without flaming peace.
The reason why im not jumping all over boring and stroking more is because of what i asked earlier about displacement/revs i dont want my combination to work against itself. obviosly.So plz lay that rumor to rest whatever the answer is. thank you.

 

Yea, of all of our higher hp street cars they are all GSR bottom ends (still with the GSR factory crank) we didn't try to improve the rod ratio because as we talked about before it's not really going to do much besides probably make less overall power (and reving high isn't going to do anything). Even if you had a more efficient bottom end like the B16 I don't see you reving past 10,500, because come on this is a street motor and by then your torque will probably be falling off hard. Again 10K is all you need with the GSR because it's not all about the reving to make power, you're just going to make less if you keep on going. You've got it now as far as spooling the turbo, it's more about the "volumetric efficiency" of the motor (how much air is being taken in/out over it's displacement). The higher the better but it starts going down (the VE that is) when you have a big big motor as a much higher volume of air is trying to come in through the same ports in the cylinder head. This is why short stroke motors are nice and efficient. Don't get me wrong here, it's in NO way better to start with a B16 bottom end. Bore will help make power/torque but up there you're only playing with a few milimeters so it's not going to do all that much for you (along the lines of making up lost power if you increased your rod ratio). We've done this a lot so I would just do something like this (and not change a thing). Start with a GSR, sleeve it to 83-84mm (there's not going to be a huge difference in power), we more commonly go 84mm. Toss some 9.0:1 forged pistons in there with whatever rods you choose and you should be set. I said 600hp+ for our street cars but that's just to include most all of them, but we've made over 700 with a couple of them. You probably haven't seen my old vids or anything but I might load some clips up just so you can see how stupid 700hp+ is in a Honda if you want. Again all of these are 84mm GSR motors except for Will's (WillieWillieFast) which was a 84mm B16A. He ran that motor for one season (just last season) but we're build a GSR right now for this coming one. Power isn't everything tho if you're going for low ETs, it's just fun on street. The top guys in SFWD don't even care about power, they're just extremely good drivers and know how to control the boost. We on the other hand just overpower the cars and they don't go anywhere...

EDITED: grammar/clarification


Modified by Kataku2K3 at 7:20 PM 12/14/2004

 

Yeah i agree with the setup you lined up, very similar to what i was doing with the exception of
R/S ratio but we figured that out, thanks. I think with this setup ill be making power to at least high 9k so low 10k could be achievable later on with the valvetrain i discussed earlier,I do not like the loss of total power when revving super high so ill be sticking with the gsr r/s ratio to keep a good long powerband like i wanted originally.Now i understand why the bigger motors dont like revving as high because of VE but 84mm is @ 2.0 liter so this wont be TO much because that is what you said your 10k rpm 600hp street cars have??,so im on a more clear path now thank you,
What brand of piston do you recommend/had the most success with, and also sleeves,who makes nice ones ive heard nothing but good about darton so thats what im leaning towards.any suggestions?Driving these rockets is definetly were I shine so im not worried about that, but im not to keen on the actuall turn wrench end of things, although i do want to learn so i can stop spending money on installs,I love to drive, everything about it, especially my teg n hatch nothing compares.So i want the challenge of driving a car that the tires are constantly ready to rip loose,I understand all the traction issue but oh well my feet will fix them.Ive driven a shitload of tegs n civics most hp was a 520whp integra fun

Does the crank need to be changed to change r/s ratio? or is the rod length? or both. im not going to im just wondering, lol
If you could post at least 1 vid of your 700hp honda that would be cool/thanks
id love to see that it in a hatch but if not oh well!Any vid of a 600+hp honda would be sick like.
I'm building this car for fun no real intentions of racing for a championship anywere, Id like the car to be say 90% drag so it still had some mobility but this car will see mostly strip with maybe a trip or 2 or 3 or...?? to the roadcourses in my area!

 

Yea, I think you'll be very happy with a setup like this. I can't image you wouldn't but on a high boost high reving motor you're going to want an upgraded valvetrain. All of our headwork is done by Tom at Portflow and it's always seemed to work awesome! We just have him do the standard headwork with bronze valve guides, Portflow springs, Ti retainers, and Ferrea valves most commonly. For sleeving most of the time we use GE and they're work is awesome but I do like RS and AEBS just as much. GE is the most inexpensive and will hold the power just fine. I personally haven't worked with Darton or Benson but I'm sure they're just as good. We've used a pretty wide variety of pistons, CP, JE, Wiseco, etc. but my I personally like the strutted Wiseco's the best (they also come with a low friction coating on the skirts off the shelf). As for increasing the rod ratio it can be done either by the rod length alone or in combination with the crank. You could increase it very slightly without deckplating your motor by having a custom piston made with a raised wristpin (lower comp height) and a custom length rod still working with a factory crank. Im my opinion it's really just not worth it because you won't get much from it. I'll get all my random vid clips of our cars together and loaded up when I get a chance.

 

nice cant wait to see the vids,were is portflow what is there website, could i call them and figure something out? How are they with customer support and prices,will they be able to help me figure something out and then i could send them my head with money,how does it work im from mass so that place is probly on the West.I ve been planning on doing that whole no vtec(ferrea) thing but now it seems useless because it doesnt seem like I could gain anything from it,maybe later down the road...If later on decided to do that alls it replaces is the rockers n cams so the rest of the head work would be done already.

About the bottom end , when i buy sleeves,rods,pistons I will obviously replace all bearings, will oem bearings be alright with added stress?Do most automotive machine shops know how to install sleeves? they should, im on the east coast an dont know anyone who does reputable honda block work, any suggestions?Do you know if ARP makes a whole kit for all of the studs and bolts for the b series for a rebuild like this if not how did you approach this?I was thinking about wiseco for pistons but i didnt know if they were making pistons for my motor, but obviously they are and there your favorite so tell me about the"strutted" pistons,what does it do and are you saying that the wiseco piston comes with a low friction coating or can that be added to the price?Nxt engine managment...ive heard hondata is good but w/ a 3 bar map sensor will that be ok or will i have to get additional feul managment .

 

The site is http://www.portflow.com and for labor and parts it'll probably run you ~$1500. Normally a cylinder head has about a month turn around time when Tom gets busy but it really depends on if he's got a lot or work or not. Maybe a month and a half tops. For the bottom end we always use OEM bearings and they take the abuse just fine, haven't had a single bearing problem on any of our motors yet. As far as the sleeving goes when you buy from the companies we do (Golden Eagle, RS, and AEBS) you send the block out as they have to install them. Then it's up to you on the machine work. We have a friend with all the machining tools so most of our blocks come back with virgin sleeves then we bore each cylinder specifically for the piston so the piston to wall clearance stays as even as possible. I don't recommend ARP studs all that much simply because they don't torque evenly, once you torque an AEBS brand stud you'll never want to use an ARP again (they have a more solid feel when your torque them and overall they feel more even). Wiseco as the other brands will have plenty of off the shelf pistons to choose from and there should be a set that will fall directly into the bore/compression you want. Their stutted design makes them lightweight as well as lowers the amount of piston skirt in contact with the cylinder wall at one time and the low friction coating is not something that costs extra. As far as engine management Hondata S200 w/ boost will work just fine but we generally use standalones on our personal cars. They do cost more but tuning is a breeze especially if for fine tuning on the street. I personally don't like AEM but that's just me, we've always had problems with it in the past and I'd take Hondata over it anyday.

I finished the little video, it's nothing special since I made it REAL fast but atleast you can see the cars!

Right Click and Save Target
RandomShit.wmv ~39mb

 

Nice dude that was a cool video,Im definetly talking to the right person who are you which ride was yours?Got anymore free time to load somemore vids i wuld like to check them out?

back to topic so i send my bare block to golden eagle theyll install the sleeves and then i get it back, to do the machining?I planned on doin all my purchasing straiht through the companies themselves, for the sake of not wanting to deal with the money skeezin shops in my area.And also AEBS bolts n studs ill take your word for the better product,Can i ask for my block to come back untouched other than the having the sleeves installed for more accurate clearance as you said?Im going to contact portflow soon to get the ball rolling on my head and then start getting together bottom end parts.i think im gonna go with hondata s200 w/boost capabilty for now if i can get into it for a good price.I want to wait on the standalone ems so i can better understand tuning but that will come in time.Thank you again for your help and im gonna keep in contact with you for other questions down the road but im glad i have a good route to go in now .-Appreciated-my name is Scot to. peace


Modified by cxVtecC1 at 4:14 PM 12/9/2004

 

Back th the R/S ratio " problem"... Get a piston w/shorter compression height and a rod that's a few mm's longer to put it at the original height out ot in the hole..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by spirit7627 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Back th the R/S ratio " problem"... Get a piston w/shorter compression height and a rod that's a few mm's longer to put it at the original height out ot in the hole..</TD></TR></TABLE>

If you know that this will work what does it do, it sounds like your replacing parts and not changing how thw engine will make power,It seems like this setup wont change much if anything,Its not really a "problem" its trying to make the best out of a built motor for a certain setup.Im open to ideas, please dont reply if your just saying what youve heard, i would like proof or atleast correct info about this setup or a similar one. I got my answer, thanks to Kataku2k3.
Im still open for suggestions but please i would like someone with expierience to tell me about there Ideas on bottom end tech.I want to build a super efficient bottom end without sacraficing,alot of tourqe and shortening the stroke would do that but lengthening it will make it less efficent,and to big of disp. will make good VE hard to achieve,I plan to be @1.9-2.1 since im using my stock gsr crank i wont have to many r/s options,Ive heard of micro polishing an knife edging the crank to allow inertia to work better, so o ithink with the gsr r/s ratio with the rest of my setup will get me right were i want to be.

 

hey kataku I really likr the vid,Is it the 724 hp ej that your driving in for most of those rollin passes, if so traction issues much? was that on street wheels n tires id imagine?Are all those cars GSR powered or is that the b16 crx (Will) that you mentioned earlier,Either way those are some nice rides im building my motor to go into a 92 cx hatch.what are the parts that are under the back of the cars, it looks like they all had them, it shows it on them at the begining very quickly, it look to be right behnd the rear lower tie bars on all the cars, im curious on what that is iv never seen those bfore..

 

Yea, I'd personally just stick the GSR rod ratio, it's not the optimal in my opinion but anything around 1.6 has a good balance of power and revs. As for knife edging the crank we never have it done, you're really just losing material. We just have the rotational assembly balanced and the journals micropolished sometimes. All of the cars do have GSR motors except for Will but we're in the process of building a new GSR motor for him right now (he only had the B16 for one season and it made ~650hp turbo/nitrous but that's not enough I guess, lol) Scott and I are rolling in Duc's EJ when we were playing, that car really gets stupid on the street. We were playing with the new boost controller there so it was set at like 24lbs and you can still see how hard 3rd and 4th rip. On full boost you can roll into 5th at 110mph+ and rip 5th. At the track and on the dyno that car sits on GoodYear 26x10x15's but it stll doesn't like to hook. On the street it has 17" Volk TE37's but they too just spin. What you're seeing under the rear of the cars is the fuel sump and external fuel pumps we run. When Scott and I are building these cars we always like to try something new so that's why they all have diffent pumps. Duc's has a massive single (Magnaflow Pro Star EFI 600 which can probably outflow just about any pump out there, it will support 2000hp+), Brian's is a Barry Grant KS, and Will runs twin Bosch's which each feed a side of the rail. We've alway had problems with our higher hp cars getting fuel through the stock fuel system so we kind of go overboard in making sure no problems arise. Will's car and Brian's both lose pressure up top so with Will's new motor I'm sure he'll have to upgrade.

 

whats your name?and is one of your cars i the vid im confused ??Im probably gonna leave the gsr r/s ratio and just bore to 84mm.Why is this not the most optimal ,is there a way to make my setup a little more optimal even if i do lose a little tourqe for some rev hp?Im also going to balance micropolish the crank for sure,why not,its only going to help.That ej is sick, i would not mind dealing with that on the road sometimes it looks crazy as hell, but fun.That is the type of ride im looking to build,A fun car on the road occasionally but rips down the track with some nice slicks.Those external feul pumps, and sumps are a great idea,never seen those on anything before, now my question is if i got one of those would it be ok to install before the bottom end is finished?or will it push to much feul?(I,ve been upgrading my feul system so this will only help) I was going to buy a walbro but i like these setups better and it looks like they are much more efficient.What gearbox do you use on that ej iv got a gsr tranny, with lsd which ill eventually upgrade but for now its fine.Do you or any of your boys run drag launch springs, iwas debating on whether or not this would be a good purchase,Im going to try an replace my control arms, struts,and add a traction bar. if youve got any others id like to check them out.

is the ek hatch the 724hp car on the dyno, or are there more than one ek/ej9-the usdm version in the video???if its the same car which i think it is that is a beautiul finished product


Modified by cxVtecC1 at 5:06 AM 12/11/2004

 

If you're just sticking with the LS crank I really wouldn't worry about increasing the rod ratio, it's not going to be a lot of gain and even at 1.54 you can still rev to 10K if need be. However, if you do step up to the 92mm crank I would suggest deckplating the motor. If you did a 1/2-3/4" deckplate that would be plenty as it only takes ~10mm over a factory length LS rod with a 92mm crank to put you at ~1.60. So it really depends on the deckplate you go with but if you went with a 1/2" and a rod that was ~149.5mm your rod ratio would be in the neighborhood of 1.63 (which in my opinion is about perfect). From that hopefully you can see what a 3/4" or even a 1" deckplate would do. Good luck!