Unfortunately.......this seems to be a perfect example of the importance of contracts between retailers and wholesalers....not choosing sides but maybe this could have been avoided. Unfortunately this happens in all industries and quite sadly it is the small businesses that usually suffer more than the customer. Issues such as these should be resolved as soon as possible.....Good luck to the both of you...

 

this is just insane. drop it. all you guys are doing are wasting bandwidth.
about the ORIGINAL thread:

i personally dont have the money to go to IB for a motor. i will continue to build my own stuff. i am in college. no funds. however after graduating and if i have the money i plan to be making, i will probably pay someone to do alot of the hassle, like installing the motor and all that. the B/S work, you know. but the actual engine build is great. just my .02cents

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 88crx91integra &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">this is just insane. drop it. all you guys are doing are wasting bandwidth.
about the ORIGINAL thread:

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Would you say that if you were in the same situation?

 

damn dude i dont know why ur going to close, u can do the wholesale thing as u run the shop. Just get a better liabilty form. no one is ever happy with what they get, if u give them a 200 whp motor for a grand, some *** will tell them they could have got it up the street for 50 dollars. I mean ****, if you think IB is expensive then take your broke *** elsewhere. And if your **** blows up, ask first "why did it blow"? then ask someone who knows why it happened... then point fingers(in the mirror). sorry to see u go man.

 

I may not be a Biggun or a big somebody from the US, i'm just a canadian that doesn't knows ****... but i do know something, that most of you will back away from your keyboards and think for a second, goddamn he's right....

we are a shop and we work on cars.. and when jeff says for each good thing you never hear, for every bad thing it follows you forever i completely ******* agree!!

and the customers always right? bullshit... we are all customers.. one off another, if somebody can save 5$ bucks of another person for the same part 95% of the people will go there, because hey their saving money, in this case he paid for a combination that got out of hand.. well regarless of the fact, for him putting it on the internet he's a ******* no brainer, because honda-tech is a community that gives readers a perspective on things, and this should have been dealth with between the partys involved. bringing serious business to the internet is a cheapshot that everybody looses. because jeff' (willingly or not) will loose customers out of this, even if he's 10000000% right (JEFF), because if one bad thing like a damn tps sensor is bad off a tb and the customer paid 200$ to dyno the car and importbuilders supplied it, the customer will bitch that the sensor was fucked, jeff couldn't tell, he had to dyno (this is a made up scenario) so who loose's jeff, ... yet the customer bitchs... why because he paid.. he'll we'll all do.. because money is best in our pockets and we dont' like to shell it....

jeff looks out for his business, i totally respect that, on guy posted i emailed him about my motor and after a while he stoped responding.. hell everyshop should do that... because your all leaching his tips and stuff that put his bread on the table...

if he'd tell you everything hell nobody would need him. so he must put boundry's... why don't you call big company's like crower and tell them, why didn't you do that or why do you do that etc, to see what kind of answer you get????

for the TB etc. Jeff is right, any aterations done on a motor somebody builds will come back to haunt you.. regarless of when it was done.. people have the tendency to blame those who put it together (we see it alot, domestics imports etc).. always comes back to "Well they put it together etc) ....

we do put motors together and we build them up aswell.... and quite frankly i totally agree, customers wine and it get's frustrating...

for the price, you get what you pay for, those who think it's expensive, why don't you whiners do it ???? take your days off, get hte parts and spend the time of your days off and put it together and you live with the day by day pressure of seying the guy rev the **** out it etc... wouldn't you be pissed he'd show up at your house ... and blame you for this and that ??????

after all.. you can do it cheaper, well i'd like to see the difference then...

those who say it's to high, WILL NEVER DO THE WORK, they just yap because they may know what the parts are woth wholesale but will never spend 30 hours on a motor for free, if so hell i'd like to see you guys do it, for 365days a year ****, i'd sell my **** to help,... are you ******* insane ????

this is a perfect example why motorsports and engine builders are bad business..

because the engine builder is always to blame.. for this i don't blame them at all to close his shop... I feel bad, but i don't blame him.. because i see it, and frequently.....

for the event that transpired.. it's easy... he didn't say **** for a long time, then one year later he attacks the builder....

remember what i was telling you the builder is always at fault... what should have been done, would have been the customer, upon seeing the block, would have been to refuse the work, despite the wait.. and said i want this fixed, and not drive the car out of the shop that day until both partys (middle and jeff) got this thing resolved then get his car when it was done, so the customer is as wrong as all the others in this, who ever is responsible...

by allowing the car to be picked up, you agreed to the terms, it's not comming back 1 year or so later to complain on it.... that's low.. if so maybe i should call all the parts i bought and complain how i can buy them new now for half price ??? after all doesn't it make sense... hell no...

I trully feel bad for jeff because i would have rather seen his business go down in history with a reputation "they are going wholesale to provide better pricing etc" rather then some 20 year old who didn' know how to approach his dealings and force it in a such way...

regarless or not.. forums ruin business's peoples repuation, and the way motorsports and things work...

but i'm just a ******* canadian what do i know....

close the topic, lock it and let the individuals deal it out.... it sickens me to see the drama in these forums....

-You can work your whole lifetime to become an accomplishment, but it only takes one to bring it all down.

I've read in this this tread the best information about motorsports i ever had. and all of your that participated, read or will type on this forum or groups should remember this and apply it daily....

jeff said it best

"Jesus christ doesn't build motors" because if he did .. nobody would loose....

Jeff ain't no jesus christ, but he's damn good at what he does...

so before you guys flame me etc etc... read my posting again...

THE CUSTOMER NEVER SHOULD HAVE DRIVEN THE CAR OUT.... this would have never happened! case closed.

who's at fault ????? the CUSTOMER not builder... you bring in your car to get painted blue, and it's red when you get there, you say **** it drive it and after a while of people knocking red and you call the bodyshop one year later to have it blue because of bla bla bla.... hell no...

by leaving the premesis you agree to the terms, despite in paper or Verbal agreements.. this has no boundry's in a court of law... CERTAINLY not one year later..

anyways i'm done..... let's see how i get flammed for putting some reality to some people.....

 

When you use message boards as a form of advertising, and free advertising I might add, there are risks you must factor into the situation like keeping your customers happy. I'm sorry but the customer is always right, once you tell the cutomer he's wrong he's not your cutomer anymore.

Most people don't have the patience to operate a succesful retail business, I don't blame them. Customers can be ********, but all you can do is swallow your pride and smile becasue the customer pays your bills!

 

I do understand in the statement the customer is always right, but in this case he didn't properly dealt with the issue and IS at fault. A customer is only right when he asks for a service, once the service is rendered if things aren't to the customers standards, the customer must express the opinion to the business about the concern to have it corrected for the deal to be complete and both parties on good terms with the deal or arrangement, by leaving with the product *vehicle or not* you agree to terms or understandings.. (+ 1 year more than proves this point)

he left with the part he accepted the work for what it was face value. it's kinda like buying some nike shoes and trying to return then one year later because the soles wore out.... you can't do that.. he shoudl have taken action on the first day when he noticed the tear in the sole not wear it out until it ripped then attack the business for bad shoes and service. The customer must express the issue first hand for it to be fixed when the issue is fresh so both are fully aware of it and willing to complete the request to satisfy the customer.

bad judgement and action taken on this customer not the business....

Like i said he never should have driven the car out, until his GSR block was built and his computer was in the car (if the agreement was not hondata or it was) this is very bad ordeal with 3 groups, all 3 should suffer if it be, not one, but in my eyes the customer is 100% wrong because he should have escalated the issue when he first noticed the problem by reading the block code. letting it be, was his problem and therefore shouldn't have posted negative remark regard for his failure to eslcalate it when the appropriate time was then.

his negligence to lack the importance to keep his GSR block and explain to jeff that he doesn't ACCEPT this motor, would have been the proper way of dealing with it.. after all the customer has the right to refuse, in this case he didn't therefore he accepted.

 

I have considered opening a shop to build motors and possibly dyno tune, but won't for this very reason : customers lie. I am not saying that this is the case in this particular instance. Customers are dishonest with the shop that they are doing business with and with people they talk to about the business. Not all customers are dishonest, but it only takes a couple of bad customers to trash the reputation of a business, especially in these times of internet forums.
I will stick to working for someone else and build my own and my friend's motors for fun. Sorry to see Jeff getting out of this end of the business, but I don't blame him. I know that if I drove a GSR into a shop for a GSR build and I found an LS/VTEC under the hood , I would not leave until a GSR motor was back under my hood. I certainly would not drive the car with it detonating so badly that it sounded like an exhaust leak.
No matter what the upshot of this whole contoversy is, a lot of people are going to come away from this with the impression that Import Builders is a rip-off and does shitty work. That's sad

 

b19coupe(couln't have said it better myself) wait a second.. i did. the SAME time you posted !! HAHAAHA great minds to think a like....

 

Without having first hand experience of the situation its gonna be difficult to make an acurate decision of who is at fault.

Jeff, I dissagree with you when you said that 100 happy customers are outweighed by 1 unhappy customer. Since its your business I'm sure you take it peronsal but you can only do so much as 1 man. I think you should renue your lease and make some changes to your attitude, you would be unstopable. Mistakes will happen because Jesus Speed Racing doesn't exist. I don't care if someguy is saying bad things about IB, you have a great shop and your customers know it. Theres always gonna be unhappy customers but just do the best you can and try to look at situations from all perspectives.

 

Not to sound like a *****, but welcome to the world of business.

For one thing, this isn't opening a lemonade stand; so if I were you, I'd be prepared for business flaws, miscommunications, unsatisfied customers, or whatever. Again, as someone stated before, this type of **** happens with almost all reputable businesses so frankly, I'm not at all surprised about this. Whelp, you live and you learn, and best of luck to both of you regarding this discord.

 

HotWheelz,
Indeed I made a huge fuss when seeing the blocks swapped. If you could picture being in my shoes, I almost fainted, lol, and the funny thing is I'm not kidding. I'm pretty sure I turned all red. I was fussing about it to Jerry, but obviously Jerry was cool and didn't know a thing about the situation(my bad to Jerry). I told Jeff I didn't want this firmly, and Jeff told me he wasn't going to do a thing about it. We then immediately called Tom for Evol to clarify the situation and he said he knew nothing about the LS/VTEC(and I believe him because I saw him pick out the IB invoice already written out when we got there and dropped off the vehicle, I was with him when he called IB many a times, even showed him the e-mail from Jeff on what I had wanted, and besides we work together and talked about the motor everyday through out the build). It almost escalated into a shouting match between Jeff and us but everyone stayed cool. I decided to take the LS/VTEC because like I said, Jeff said it was the "best motor in the world" and I believed him. He even quoted, "I don't even use GSR blocks in my package 2's."(verbatim) I admit I was gullable. But like you guys say, it's Jeff, just do what he says right...
I do admit fault in taking my car on terms in which I didn't solely agree on, but that's a decision I will have to live with and I understand that, that's why I never made a thread about this until I was asked about it!!! This is not my thread!! But if you could understand me, part of the reason why I did take my car is because I live 6 hours away, and waited over 3 months for this project to be done, that was too much!!!(it's my only car) I had lost all trust in IB at that time and couldn't fathom leaving my car there while I go through the hell of trying to get them to build what I had orginally wanted. I mean, truthfully, if any of you have spoken to Jeff, he thinks he is always right, no "if's", "ands", or "buts" about it. With an attitude like that I really didn't want to deal with him anymore. I didn't want to risk my car being there for years while we battled over who's right or wrong. I didn't want to to put my car into any more risk. Like I said, I live 6 hours away and would not be able to check on my car to see how it would be handled(not that it would purposely damaged, but I just didn't know who to trust anymore).
To make this short, I know it's my fault I took the LS/VTEC and am no way complaining about it. It's my fault I have it, yes!! I'm just simply stating a mixup of such happened and it's no lie. BUT, I do think it's fair for me to get my GSR block back, is that not right??? Also, Jeff refered to the ECU given to me in a recent IM as a Hondata ECU, to me it's just a modified VX ECU. Still can't get over that, but oh well. And I did e-mail Jeff several months ago for my block and ECU back, but guess what happened, Jeff is always right and the ecu was also a trade when Hondata systems are installed into customers vehicles like mine. ( I already posted the e-mail from Jeff saying this).
And a last note to Jeff. Please in future business relations, don't treat everyone as if they are trying to rip you off somehow. We aren't trying to "sway" you. If I were going to do that, would I have spent the money I did with you??? Please take more consideration into what we the customers have to say, listen, and atleast try to straighten everything out before just thinking you're always right. No one's perfect, and believe me on this, if you call Tom, you'll see what I mean. It seems as though you think the world is against you. You're statement of not being pushed around or whatever by customers isn't very professional IMHO. Who are you trying to impress by saying that? To me that's why I have the motor I have now, because you were unwilling to listen and sort things out... I'm not a psychologist but I think you're still very over protective of yourself from you Endyn experience. Please don't treat future customers like they're against your when something doesn't go right. Like I said earlier, mistakes do happen and it's what you do about these situations that dictate the choices of prospective customers. In all honestly, if you would've taken care of me, damn I would have spent a lot more money there. Just an example though.
That's all, really...
Kong


Modified by Alpha_GSR at 5:51 AM 4/22/2003


Modified by Alpha_GSR at 5:56 AM 4/22/2003

 

I forgive you Kong for everything you said about me. Know that.
I don't intentionally rip anyone off, or lie to anyone.

And that block IS one of the best blocks you can buy in the world for the $$$. I believe that. For the $$$

We made 242 WHP, 238 WHP on that exact block, with those exact pistons, on 91 octane. How many shops can claim that? Maybe 3? I don't know of any. on 91!

And if you think I think I am right all the time, that shows you don;t know me at ALL. Ask my friends and my constant good customers, they will tell you first hand...I admit I am wrong, alot. And many, many customers have proven me wrong on many topics, and I appreciate them correcting me.

and people can mock me all they want because they say I am not professional. I am definitly not super professional. If I was, why would I be working in a dumpy garage getting blamed for problems that are not my fault?

I would be working in an office, getting paid the big bucks, like I used to. I used to make about 15k a month. So what? I chose to start my own business. My choice.

MY lease is up soon, and the rent in OC is outrageous. I refuse to re-up. Pretty soon, I will be able to compete with all the companies that put their aim on Import Builders to copy all my crated engines, my blocks and my heads. I have seen about 6 companies just basically copy what I am doing here within the last year. Its funny, before they copied me, they actually asked me, personally, how much I buy all the parts I use and what I sell them for!! they always tell me..."wow Jeff, you have a nice web site" Then start in with the questions...

UNreal huh?

Well my new slogan pretty soon is:

"I will beat anyone's price on anything I sell"

I mean, there are people selling JE pistons for like $440 a set now. They are not even making $20 a set. There are people selling Skunk 2 cams for $10 over cost. There are people selling built blocks making $200. There are people selling cam gears, and misc parts making $5.

Nobody with a retail shop can POSSIBLY stay in business with the state of the industry right now. There are so many people just selling everything for so cheap, I can't believe it.

So I am going to effect this industry. People will know the name Import Builders.

I am going to affect this industry in a positive way. Talk crap about no person, badmouth no company, refer people to my competitors...etc. To my worst enemies, I offer even MORE discounts. (the people that hate me, I don't hate anyone)

Since I will have virtually no overhead soon, thats good news for all of you guys. I will be able to help out MORE people in need, and sponsor more people. I will be able to support the shops that need help by giving them better pricing so they can make more profit. IN the past I have made MANY mistakes, Friendships I had that were strong, have gone away from my lies in the past, and that won't happen again....I have relied too much on people I thought I knew, and got burned from that reliance...that won't happen again... I know one thing. I can change, everyone can change.

If I could have a company slogan here it is:

Import Builders, we try and be like Jesus if he ran a shop. "rip off no-one, always be honest, and affect people's lives in a positive way"

To the people on here that have said kind words to me, and support me, I appreciate it more than you know. I am a strong willed person, but everyone needs friends. Thank you.

Thank you, to Kong. You gave me new perspective on how to deal with future clients. Write it all down word for word, and review 2x before starting!

Thank you for that Kong! I appreciate it! Good luck to you! I am a changed man. The years of this work have affected me in many ways.

all for the better.
The more criticizm I get, the more I can change to become a better person. If nobody yelled at me, or said I was wrong, or thought different from me, I could never learn anyth

 

HotWheelz-turboh22dx

apply everything you just said to any service industry profession and you'll see how ludicrous you sound.

Anyone who is in a service industry knows that you are only as good as your last customer and that we are in a free market competition.

If you are a professional, you are supposed to be accountable.

Whine? Do it myself? Well if that's your attitude then why are you in business?

If I knew my engine builder won't take care of me when the problem happens and admits when he made a mistake or helps shoulder some of the burden, I can tell you that I don't whine,...I just take my business elsewhere and if someone asks me, I'll tell them how I was treated. Yeah I may be one. But what if there are 2 or 3 or 4 others with similar problems. Then who is the problem? The customer or the shop? Someone who continually screws people (not referring to Jeff BTW) should go out of business.


No-one is perfect but you should listen to the other side instead of shutting them out. Not everyone (customerwise) is out to screw and bleed the shop dry when a problem has been identified. The good shops take care of their customers. The ones who can't tell the difference between a person trying to screw the shop and a genuine problem will not succeed and will eventually go out of business. No you can't please everyone but you better be damn sure you know when you really did screw up and admit it or else you are lying to yourself as well.


Just my 2 cents as a Canadian who may know more than he lets on...

 

Note to HotWheelsz,
IMO, you're thinking too highly of yourself. Even me and Jeff didn't use foul language in our debates, while someone who knows nothing of the situation is trying to look like a hero. Please grow up buddy and I would appreciate it if you didn't refer to me by using the "F" word. Internet tough guys are really respected hear ya know. This is an information board, not a showoff contest.
Kong

 

You know, I noticed alot of people use the F word on the internet these days. I just read past it. Its really, REALLY hard to tell the "tone" of somebodies words on the internet.

They could be calm and mean well, but percieved as a rude, violent jerk.

Jeff

 

Jeff: Good luck Jeff and I hope you have fun in Hawaii with no stress.
I know it must get rough at times.


Modified by vivid02 at 12:19 PM 4/22/2003

 

what i dont get is you said you never talked to kong but he provided e-mails that were sent to you including the issue of the ecu and also the confirmation of what he was ordering. and i dont think kong is starting anything or even complaing someone asked if anyone has dealt with ib and he had. everyone else asked him his situation, he explained it.

 

must be a shitty garage if your moving out to a condo in hawaii.....lol...

 

Sorry for the harsh words guys.... that i was out of line... just finished a 12hour shift and I work for a major ISP (senior) and server issues just made my month! I usually reply with respect and appologize for the harshness.. i`m certain almost all of you seen my posts at one time or another. (gerry mguire special *HAHAHHA*

anyways i hope people can read this tread and now see how much one indicent can harm a company if not dealth right from the start.. if you honestly don`t beleive me, think of crower or skunk cams breaking!!!! and how tha`ts proportioned out the water immagine how it affects their business everytime somebody says `they break`that`s 700$ they lost on a sale..

anyways... `let`s get all drunk get some lady`s and call it a day!

 

there's always crap on both sides of the fence.

I understand your perspective about customers. I've been moderating on Honda boards for 8 years now and I can tell you it's a diverse group. Some are not the most mature adults I've ever seen (when you are old enough to take the responsibility of driving a car, which can become a weapon if handled improperly, on public road, you are considered an adult) . I'm sure there are customers who do and say stupid things because of their immaturity. I see it every day. It's a only a handful of people.

No-one is doubting you that some customers try to take advantage of a situation in which they had full responsibility for the subsequent damage incurred.

On the other hand, there are customers with legit complaints after services rendered. When a shop skirts an issue and ducks responsibility without working with the customer without reasonable negotiation (split the repair cost or take full responsibility depending on the situation) and deal in an equally immature manor, then labelling the quality of the service as crap on the internet is fair game. That's just bad business and they should be called to the carpet for it. I never base my decision on whether a shop is bad based on 1 complaint but if there is a growing pattern then that gets my attention. No-one is perfect. But the good ones eat the costs when they screwed up and fix the problem...it's good business. People will go to an honest shop.


I'm not referring to anyone in particular in this thread. I'm speaking in general terms.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ImportReview &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I mean, there are people selling JE pistons for like $440 a set now. They are not even making $20 a set. There are people selling Skunk 2 cams for $10 over cost. There are people selling built blocks making $200. There are people selling cam gears, and misc parts making $5.

Nobody with a retail shop can POSSIBLY stay in business with the state of the industry right now. There are so many people just selling everything for so cheap, I can't believe it.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

amen.

Sad to see so many reputable shop not doing well. You guys (consumers who buy online to save $5) will be sorry when you don`t have any support for products you purchased online.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecvoodoo &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

amen.

Sad to see so many reputable shop not doing well. You guys (consumers who buy online to save $5) will be sorry when you don`t have any support for products you purchased online.</TD></TR></TABLE>

That is so true. Jeff is right, people are selling these products at such a small profit that small shops are doomed. I own a small shop. it's rough much of the time. I know that without doing the bigger installs I would not be in business for the lucky 2 years I have. People who ***** out much of these highend products do not give a ****.

Support your local shop. Especialy the one that installs too. I don't sell parts that don't fit because I have to install them and make sure they work as intended. Web or phone sales places don't have to hand you the keys....

 

ofcourse you guys dont make any money selling parts........not many shops do this includes the domestic shops also........you guys make your money on the installs...that is where money can be made not the parts......most of the going rate for installations around here are $75 an hour.....the book calls for a 4 hour install on nitrous systems....guess what that is $300 bucks for you guys when it only take up to an hour or less....some people charge $50 an hour.....i cannot think you guys even thought of supporting a business on selling parts alone.

steve

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but i'm just a ******* canadian what do i know....

close the topic, lock it and let the individuals deal it out.... it sickens me to see the drama in these forums....

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Only intelligent thing said in this entire thread.