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Got the new ignition switch put in. Wired up the same way it was, just used proper splice connectors. Did not resolve the issue.

I pulled the starter relay to see if I could get a new one to try but they are a pain to find. So now all I have left is to start tracing the wires to the starter and see where it's not getting power.

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Found the problem, it's resolved now after two things I did.

1). Found where they bypassed the clutch switch, blue/blk wire and black wire twisted together with a butt connector. I redid the connection with a twist cap.

2). Connectors on starter relay were super corroded, so I cleaned them up.

Now when I connect the battery ground, I can hear the relay click right away. It wasn't engaging the starter signal either because of the bad clutch switch bypass, or the poor connections.

Cranks every time now tho.


But I have another problem now since I put the new ign switch in. I have no accessory power, only ON and start. When I turn the key to acc nothing happens.

Idk if something else came disconnected while I was working or what

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It started up so quick and strong every time that I thought for sure the issue was resolved.

Got home today, no crank at all again!

Can hear starter relay click on so that's not the issue. Everything has been replaced.

Grrrrr

browngrasscat

hello again, I've been having internet issues lately and haven't been on.
I'm gonna have to read this again when it's not 10:30 at night, but I think you may be stuck poking around with a tester.
as far as voltage or amperage, if you don't have the specs (I dont) you can use a general guideline of what goes in outta come out (if you have 12.8 v at point A, and 2 at point B, there might be a problem)

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Yeah, I'm gonna tackle it on Friday. I am suspecting it still has to do with the wiring at or near the starter relay and clutch switch bypass, because when I worked on that is when it changed the most and cranked perfectly.

I will start there and work my way to the starter if everything looks good. Just hope my old multimeter from college still works!

Question, does wiring the starter relay so that it is always on run the risk of burning up this relay or something else? Currently I can hear it click as soon as I connect the battery, with the clutch switch bypassed. Was considering putting in a toggle switch to replace the clutch switch.

browngrasscat

The relay shouldn't click until you hit the key. That would explain the spark when hook the battery up though (load on the system).
I'm still lookin at the pictures, that's an interesting setup to say the least.

Could always go straight up would-be racecar, stand alone chassis harness, toggle switches everywhere lol, I've considered it just for experience, but then you have to live with the end result.

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Yeah, starter relay clicks as soon as I connect the battery, with key out. So they must have done something funky with that, or something is up with my ignition switch....

But so far all the wiring I've been able to trace from the ignition, to the starter relay looks to be normal and per the schematic, other than the two wires that would normally go to the clutch safety switch being tied together.

Was working fine like this for a while, first I am going to try putting my old starter relay back in which was working after I took it apart and cleaned it the first time. If the relay burned up from being always on, then I will try wiring a toggle switch to replace the old clutch safety switch and that should prevent it from happening again.

edit: Or, could be my main relay clicking with battery connected? It wasn't doing that before though. Hard to tell since I connect the battery in the hatch and clicking comes from drivers footwell.

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Alright so I worked on it tonight, and this is pretty interesting/perplexing. Of course I got in, turned the key and it started right up every time now.

It seems to be that the issue occurs only after driving a while when everything is warmed up. Then it doesn't crank for several hours or until the next day. Is this a characteristic of relays that are not working properly?

I thought that maybe somehow having the clutch safety switch bypassed might be causing the starter relay to stick or short somehow, from it being stuck on the entire time the key is on and not just when the pedal is pressed.

I wired a toggle switch and it works as it should, in place of the clutch switch.

Whats interesting tho is, the relay doesn't click when I flip the switch. Car just starts when it's on, or doesn't when it's off. With the switch off it acts exactly the same as when it's acting up and won't start, so this gives me some confidence that I've honed in on the issue.

It still clicks when I connect the battery too, whether the switch is on or off. So maybe it's not the starter relay? Idk. I might try driving it to work tomorrow, but I'm afraid of getting stuck there if it acts up again. I guess there's always push starting...

browngrasscat

Trying to work this out in text, we'll see what happens
Power should go key on > clutch switch > relay > solenoid. The key switch, or the clutch switch (toggle in this case) alone shouldn't set kick the relay.
Unless, the power went clutch > relay > key > solenoid, which would work, though it kinda defeats the purpose of the relay. All the wires are in the right area, it would just be a matter of someone mixing it up. Or an odd O.E. design.
curiousity got me, I'm gonna look at the schematics
I got lucky, 88 didnt get the switch and the last 2 owners (I know them) limited their damage to lousy bodywork and obvious mechanical laziness, but that's a story for another day.

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Started right up this morning, drove it to work. When I got here, I tested out the theory that after the car is on/warmed up for a while, the issue arises.

So after I turned it off, waited a minute and it started again no problem. So idk if it's because the toggle switch made a difference, or if it's just not acting up yet today.

I might go out at different times today and see if it still starts up, then will try again after I get home tonight. That is usually when it won't crank again, after I pull in my driveway.

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Doing some reading up on it this morning.... Could I be dealing with starter heat soak???

https://www.knowyourparts.com/techni...hot-heat-soak/


It would make sense, since I have a big turbo engine stuffed into a tiny engine bay with very little room for air circulation.

browngrasscat

It's a possibility, it comes down to testing while it's having a problem (it won't start right now, and power is/isn't there).
Haven't heard a lot of Honda specific issues with this, old Mopars and SBC's more common (header is almost touching.
Ford solved that with a remote solenoid. It looks out of place on a Honda (you can't remove the oem one on the starter as the bendix is built into the solenoid itself - I just tore mine apart a few weeks ago to see)

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Just for an update...

For now the problem seems to be resolved. Ever since I wired a toggle switch to the starter relay in place of the clutch safety switch, I have not had any issues. Cranks instantly.

This is after a couple days doing lots of driving with stops in between. Cold and warm starts.

browngrasscat

Sweet deal

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Alright the issue occurred again today. It is definitely heat related, possibly starter heat soak coupled with a weakened amperage due to the battery being in the rear.

I drove the car on 4 cooler days with absolutely no problems. Today it is much warmer, and driving around town my ECT got as high as 205. Stopped at a store, then bam. Wouldn't crank.

Im guessing later when it's cooled down it'll start up no problem. My long term fix is to work on my cooling system so my ECT doesnt go above 195 even on a hot day, but not sure if that will resolve it.

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I've zeroed in on the fuse box under the hood. I've traced all wires going to it, from the battery cable, the starter signal wire and cannot find any bad connections. I suspect that the signal wire is not getting power from one side of the fuse box to the other. Will verify today with my multimeter if I can get it working.

I even pulled apart the under hood box to see what I could see, but everything looks good. There is just one module or relay in it that I can't get into, and it could possibly be the source of the problem.

browngrasscat

Yeah that thing, it's not labeled on mine (letters, maybe numbers, I don't remember right now but it's not meaningful). I took the box apart while making a "practical" wiring diagram (as opposed to the abbreviated ones in the manuals), it's still labeled as "???"

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Is it the ELD maybe??

Im so clueless when it comes to electrical. But I'm learning alot by trying to do this myself.

Time to go start probing!!

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I was unable to recreate the issue today so I could diagnose it. I even went and got a new DMM cuz my old one was acting crazy. Drove the car to get it plenty warm but it still is cranking fine.

I did clean the terminals going into the fuse box under the hood, they were pretty bad. It tested 13V at every contact point on the box. Battery positive to chassis metal read 13V so I think my grounds are good. Ignition switch tested good.

I guess all I can do is keep my multimeter ready and wait for it to happen again. I'll be sure to park at the top of an incline everywhere I go

But the weather for next week looks wet, so I started another project of pulling the tranny to replace clutch and flywheel. It'll probably be a couple weeks before that's done, and depending on weather I may or may not get much of a chance to revisit the cranking issue this year. Will post if I do.

Thanks for all of the help on this thread. I've learned alot.

tamboo

likely not eld as i've replaced mine and code still pops up after 20 min or so of driving.
car has run fine entire time with no loss of mpg so whatever. the $10 ebay replacement
fusebox was loaded with goodies so i made $ on the deal lol.
try ig switch clean, mine was filthy, noticed a diff after mopup so replaced since it's cheap
and a known issue:

DIY Ignition switch cleaning - Team Integra Forums - Team Integra

if that dont cut it here's the usual suspects:

Honda Acura Essential Electrical Repair Website. Troubleshooting Main Relay, Coil, Igniter, etc.

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That link is a pretty nice tool for troubleshooting, thanks for that.

But my ignition switch is new, and everything else in that guide for the no crank symptoms I've had is new also. So I'll still need to wait until it acts up again to further diagnose.

tamboo

lol electrical stuff stinks cuz it fails then comes back from the dead.
an icm about to bite the big one is loads of fun! 8(

chiefposey

Mine was a loose connection to starter

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