Timing Help
12-29-2006, 05:07 PM
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Timing Help
I have this posted in the Tech/Misc forum as well and that's where I posted first but I don't seem to be getting a lot from there so here it goes:
I did some reading through the stickys, and searched some topics and some of the links are helpful if you have some understanding of how timing works but here's my question:
Is there someone here that could provide a link, or give me a decent write up on how do to do your own timing using a timing light. I can figure most things out myself, timing eludes me to all hell and my car is approaching 86,000 miles and I like PREVENTATIVE maintenance and am looking to change my timing belt and water pump at the same time. Not concerned with the pump because once I'm in there it's no big deal to change that, just getting the timing right again. I know only to mark which way the belt will go, and where the belt will go above and under the pulleys and cog wheels, but once it's on I'm confused as to how to get it right back into time and how the hell you actually READ with a timing light. I've read the things as far as the markings for TDC but I don't get it when someone says "oh just advance it 18 degrees" How in the heck do you know how far 18 degrees is? Basically I would like a nice write-up or VERY informative link on how to do your own timing. Thank you in advance and sorry for the elongated post.
I did some reading through the stickys, and searched some topics and some of the links are helpful if you have some understanding of how timing works but here's my question:
Is there someone here that could provide a link, or give me a decent write up on how do to do your own timing using a timing light. I can figure most things out myself, timing eludes me to all hell and my car is approaching 86,000 miles and I like PREVENTATIVE maintenance and am looking to change my timing belt and water pump at the same time. Not concerned with the pump because once I'm in there it's no big deal to change that, just getting the timing right again. I know only to mark which way the belt will go, and where the belt will go above and under the pulleys and cog wheels, but once it's on I'm confused as to how to get it right back into time and how the hell you actually READ with a timing light. I've read the things as far as the markings for TDC but I don't get it when someone says "oh just advance it 18 degrees" How in the heck do you know how far 18 degrees is? Basically I would like a nice write-up or VERY informative link on how to do your own timing. Thank you in advance and sorry for the elongated post.
12-29-2006, 05:18 PM
#2
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there certainly is one in the FAQ sticky at the top of this forum.
and just so you know, the timing marks are for setting mechanical timing or cam timing, the amount of advance/retard is generallly spoken of in ignition timing.
basically turn crank until marks line up, remove belt, change belt, tension belt, rotate engine by hand and recheck marks. if you do this assuming the crank or cam hasnt moved during removal or installation and the timing was correct before you will be fine.
to check ignition timing once you are done, jump service connector under dash, hook +/- up to battery, and inductive lead to #1 plug wire, point the timing gun at the crank pulley, if you see the white mark as the light flashes it should line up with the mark on the timing cover above the pulley. if not loosen distributor mounting bolts and rotate distributor until the marks line up. this will set to OE setting.
if this still doesnt make sense you probably should take the care to a shop and just pay the $400-500 to have the belt and pump changed.
and just so you know, the timing marks are for setting mechanical timing or cam timing, the amount of advance/retard is generallly spoken of in ignition timing.
basically turn crank until marks line up, remove belt, change belt, tension belt, rotate engine by hand and recheck marks. if you do this assuming the crank or cam hasnt moved during removal or installation and the timing was correct before you will be fine.
to check ignition timing once you are done, jump service connector under dash, hook +/- up to battery, and inductive lead to #1 plug wire, point the timing gun at the crank pulley, if you see the white mark as the light flashes it should line up with the mark on the timing cover above the pulley. if not loosen distributor mounting bolts and rotate distributor until the marks line up. this will set to OE setting.
if this still doesnt make sense you probably should take the care to a shop and just pay the $400-500 to have the belt and pump changed.
12-29-2006, 05:26 PM
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Re: (schardbody)
Actually that does help a great deal, puts it a little more into perspective for me as compared to thinking it was damn near close to impossible. The only questions I have for you with your answer is this: I would assume to tell if the crank/cam has moved during removal or installation is if the marks are no longer lined up like they were before the process was started (please correct me if i'm wrong) so even if they have moved, can you just turn it back to where it was?
2nd question is: ok line marks up, do the belt stuff, change it tension ETC ETC, why would any further turning be necessary/do I need to turn it somewhere else or just turn it again so the marks line up again?
Basically I understand what I have to do but I'm sort of a "why" person, if I understand why I have to do it, it's easier for me to comprehend.
P.S. EDIT* Sorry to sound like such a noob, but when it comes to timing on ANY vehicle, I am a total noob along with other things of course but this is bad. Would this be a bad thing to try to do with little/no experience with it, should I just spend the money until I get some more experience under my belt? Would 400-500 dollars be the general rate for parts and installation?
2nd question is: ok line marks up, do the belt stuff, change it tension ETC ETC, why would any further turning be necessary/do I need to turn it somewhere else or just turn it again so the marks line up again?
Basically I understand what I have to do but I'm sort of a "why" person, if I understand why I have to do it, it's easier for me to comprehend.
P.S. EDIT* Sorry to sound like such a noob, but when it comes to timing on ANY vehicle, I am a total noob along with other things of course but this is bad. Would this be a bad thing to try to do with little/no experience with it, should I just spend the money until I get some more experience under my belt? Would 400-500 dollars be the general rate for parts and installation?
12-29-2006, 05:40 PM
#4
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to tension the timing belt you have to rotate the engine equievelant to 3 teeth on the cam gear and then tighten the tensioner. sometimes after doing so the marks dont line up again, which is why its good practice to check the marks again after tensioning the belt. also, i just usually grab a ratchet and 17mm socket and rotate the crank until the marks are lined up again. usually 4 rotations of the crank and recheck marks.
as for telling if the marks are right after changing the pump and belt yeah, just look, and rotate until they are right, i mean, dong go spinning the crank a whole revolution or whatever, just spin it back to where it needs to be, same with cam.
what do you mean by further tuning, you mean setting the ignition timing with a light??? it doesnt absolutely have to be done, just good practice, and being a tech myself and liking to do things the CORRECT way not half assed, i tend to teach others the CORRECT way. just say for instance the last person that did the belt got it one tooth off (would be noticeable most likely anyhow, but just for instance) he could have advanced/retarded the crap out of the ignition timing to compensate, now when you get the cam timing correct the ignition timing is WAY out of wack (the distributor is on the other end of the cam by the way, so changing cam timing affect ignition timing. i lost my train of thought now, thik thats it though.
as for telling if the marks are right after changing the pump and belt yeah, just look, and rotate until they are right, i mean, dong go spinning the crank a whole revolution or whatever, just spin it back to where it needs to be, same with cam.
what do you mean by further tuning, you mean setting the ignition timing with a light??? it doesnt absolutely have to be done, just good practice, and being a tech myself and liking to do things the CORRECT way not half assed, i tend to teach others the CORRECT way. just say for instance the last person that did the belt got it one tooth off (would be noticeable most likely anyhow, but just for instance) he could have advanced/retarded the crap out of the ignition timing to compensate, now when you get the cam timing correct the ignition timing is WAY out of wack (the distributor is on the other end of the cam by the way, so changing cam timing affect ignition timing. i lost my train of thought now, thik thats it though.
12-29-2006, 05:44 PM
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the way I do my timing is take the #1 sparkplug out(closest to the cam gears)and stick a long screwdriver in the sparkplug hole, and then turn the crank until the screwdriver is at its highest point, and thats TDC, and then when u get the T-belt on, just get the crank back at TDC and make sure your cams are in the rt position and ur good to go
12-29-2006, 05:46 PM
#6
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Re: (hondachris1994)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondachris1994 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the way I do my timing is take the #1 sparkplug out(closest to the cam gears)and stick a long screwdriver in the sparkplug hole, and then turn the crank until the screwdriver is at its highest point, and thats TDC, and then when u get the T-belt on, just get the crank back at TDC and make sure your cams are in the rt position and ur good to go</TD></TR></TABLE>
if you are gonna use the mark on the crank why even pull the plug???
if you are gonna use the mark on the crank why even pull the plug???
12-29-2006, 05:50 PM
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Re: (hondachris1994)
I agree 100 percent, I want things to be done the right way, which is why I am asking so many questions and I appreciate the informative responses.
Now what I am generally getting out of the situation is that before you start, get the engine at TDC by having the middle of the 3 marks on the cam gear line up with the mark on the engine itself, remove belt, replace belt, tension belt, re-align the marks the same way, test with timing light to make sure it blinks when it hits the same place, and you're done? Please correct me if I am horribly wrong but I'm hoping I'm right.
Now what I am generally getting out of the situation is that before you start, get the engine at TDC by having the middle of the 3 marks on the cam gear line up with the mark on the engine itself, remove belt, replace belt, tension belt, re-align the marks the same way, test with timing light to make sure it blinks when it hits the same place, and you're done? Please correct me if I am horribly wrong but I'm hoping I'm right.
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12-29-2006, 05:53 PM
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Re: (schardbody)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by schardbody »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
if you are gonna use the mark on the crank why even pull the plug???</TD></TR></TABLE>cause it only takes a cpl seconds and its a gd way to double check myself, but to each is there own
if you are gonna use the mark on the crank why even pull the plug???</TD></TR></TABLE>cause it only takes a cpl seconds and its a gd way to double check myself, but to each is there own
12-29-2006, 05:58 PM
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Re: (schardbody)
i know from being a tech doing your fist timming belt is preity scary just cause you can completely ruin a motor if you dont do it right. once you have done one than you are good to go. but just like everyong is saying lining it all up just make sure the cam and crank are in time and your good. only thing i do have to say is once you have the tension tight and everything than spin the motor 2 times to make sure your not hitting any valves. as for the light as a tch doing it everyday i dont do it for one its time i dont get paid for and for two most people only do that when they are doing performance mods. if you have a completly stock car than chances are the igniton timming is not off. anyway good luck on it if you have any mechanical abilities you can do it. it really is fun to do when you learn.
12-29-2006, 06:08 PM
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Re: (onephatcivic98)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by bart2546 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I agree 100 percent, I want things to be done the right way, which is why I am asking so many questions and I appreciate the informative responses.
Now what I am generally getting out of the situation is that before you start, get the engine at TDC by having the middle of the 3 marks on the cam gear line up with the mark on the engine itself, remove belt, replace belt, tension belt, re-align the marks the same way, test with timing light to make sure it blinks when it hits the same place, and you're done? Please correct me if I am horribly wrong but I'm hoping I'm right. </TD></TR></TABLE>
correct on the marks, but when you hit it with the timing light its gonna hit a differant mark, not the 0 mark, its the lone mark.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondachris1994 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cause it only takes a cpl seconds and its a gd way to double check myself, but to each is there own</TD></TR></TABLE>
i guess its not a bad idea, just wondering what the point was.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onephatcivic98 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i know from being a tech doing your fist timming belt is preity scary just cause you can completely ruin a motor if you dont do it right. once you have done one than you are good to go. but just like everyong is saying lining it all up just make sure the cam and crank are in time and your good. only thing i do have to say is once you have the tension tight and everything than spin the motor 2 times to make sure your not hitting any valves. as for the light as a tch doing it everyday i dont do it for one its time i dont get paid for and for two most people only do that when they are doing performance mods. if you have a completly stock car than chances are the igniton timming is not off. anyway good luck on it if you have any mechanical abilities you can do it. it really is fun to do when you learn.</TD></TR></TABLE>
so you are basically saying that when getting paid to do a timing belt you arent getting paid to set the ignition timing??? then your service writer is screwing you, another .5hrs to set ignition timing (10 min. max). worth the extra effort to me for the extra money and the sense of KNOWING its right, instead of HOPING since its stock its correct. exactly what i meant by half-assed. read my reason for checking ignition timing after a timing belt above.
Now what I am generally getting out of the situation is that before you start, get the engine at TDC by having the middle of the 3 marks on the cam gear line up with the mark on the engine itself, remove belt, replace belt, tension belt, re-align the marks the same way, test with timing light to make sure it blinks when it hits the same place, and you're done? Please correct me if I am horribly wrong but I'm hoping I'm right. </TD></TR></TABLE>
correct on the marks, but when you hit it with the timing light its gonna hit a differant mark, not the 0 mark, its the lone mark.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by hondachris1994 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">cause it only takes a cpl seconds and its a gd way to double check myself, but to each is there own</TD></TR></TABLE>
i guess its not a bad idea, just wondering what the point was.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onephatcivic98 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i know from being a tech doing your fist timming belt is preity scary just cause you can completely ruin a motor if you dont do it right. once you have done one than you are good to go. but just like everyong is saying lining it all up just make sure the cam and crank are in time and your good. only thing i do have to say is once you have the tension tight and everything than spin the motor 2 times to make sure your not hitting any valves. as for the light as a tch doing it everyday i dont do it for one its time i dont get paid for and for two most people only do that when they are doing performance mods. if you have a completly stock car than chances are the igniton timming is not off. anyway good luck on it if you have any mechanical abilities you can do it. it really is fun to do when you learn.</TD></TR></TABLE>
so you are basically saying that when getting paid to do a timing belt you arent getting paid to set the ignition timing??? then your service writer is screwing you, another .5hrs to set ignition timing (10 min. max). worth the extra effort to me for the extra money and the sense of KNOWING its right, instead of HOPING since its stock its correct. exactly what i meant by half-assed. read my reason for checking ignition timing after a timing belt above.
12-30-2006, 10:00 AM
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Re: (schardbody)
i understand what your saying about using a timming light. i use one when i do side jobs and my personal sutff but if they arnt going to pay me than im not going to work for free. besides i work for a dealership they are stingy about what they pay and all. and by the way i dont do half assed work. and also most stuff i do a timming belt on is doing a 60k maintnece and we have done all the work to the car anyway.
12-30-2006, 10:51 AM
#14
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Re: (onephatcivic98)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by onephatcivic98 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i understand what your saying about using a timming light. i use one when i do side jobs and my personal sutff but if they arnt going to pay me than im not going to work for free. besides i work for a dealership they are stingy about what they pay and all. and by the way i dont do half assed work. and also most stuff i do a timming belt on is doing a 60k maintnece and we have done all the work to the car anyway.</TD></TR></TABLE>
im not saying you do half assed work, im saying the service writer is half assing you. they should be adding the .5hr in and get paid for it and do it right. no down side, everyone gets what is deserved.
im not saying you do half assed work, im saying the service writer is half assing you. they should be adding the .5hr in and get paid for it and do it right. no down side, everyone gets what is deserved.
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