bang4theBUCK b18c b16a...
06-01-2002, 08:48 PM
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bang4theBUCK b18c b16a...
hey i plan on doing a swap in about a month....
i have a friend with a b18c in his 93cx with mostly valvetrain mods and a chipped ecu and i really like how it pulls...
MY QUESTION: since i can get a b16a for about $1000-1500 less than a b18c, is it worth it to get the b16 and spend the extra dough on mods, or should i just get the b18c? is the extra torque worth the money?
what will give me more bang for the buck?... i have no idea what a b16 feels like in a 5th gen si.....
my friends keep telling me to get the b18c, and they are probably right...i just like the fact that i can get a b16 for about 2 grand and work from there
i have a friend with a b18c in his 93cx with mostly valvetrain mods and a chipped ecu and i really like how it pulls...
MY QUESTION: since i can get a b16a for about $1000-1500 less than a b18c, is it worth it to get the b16 and spend the extra dough on mods, or should i just get the b18c? is the extra torque worth the money?
what will give me more bang for the buck?... i have no idea what a b16 feels like in a 5th gen si.....
my friends keep telling me to get the b18c, and they are probably right...i just like the fact that i can get a b16 for about 2 grand and work from there
06-01-2002, 09:58 PM
#4
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (97hb)
this is like the fifth topic exactly like this one. bottom line:the b18c will whoop on the b16a, rumor has it that the extra 1000 bux is worth it. the question is, do you care about being fast then get the b18, if you dont and just want a quick car get the b16
talk to b18c5-eh2 about it, hes had all of the swaps
talk to b18c5-eh2 about it, hes had all of the swaps
06-02-2002, 06:53 AM
#6
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (PIMENTEL)
Taken from another B16A vs. B18C thread, here's my reply:
I've said this at least 50 times on this MB, but I'm sure those posts are long gone now:
I have owned all 3 of the common VTEC swaps in the exact same type of car.
1999 B16A2 from Civic Si coupe. It's in my girl's 1992 Si hatchback. Dynoed 143whp, 102ft/lbs. torque. Car feels great, but cannot compare to the other motor set-ups that I had in my 1992 Si hatchback.
1995 B18C1 from Integra GS-R. Had it in my 1992 Si hatch and it would romp her car all day long from any stop, roll, corner exit, etc. Dynoed 150whp and 122ft/lbs. of torque. True the gearing is a little more spaced than the B16A, but it doesn't matter because these motors have a BROAD powerband that compliments the taller gearing. This car busted 14.7 in full street trim even on shitty 16'' wheels/tires.
1998 USDM B18C5 from ITR. Had this after the B18C1 in the same 1992 Si hatch and it now resides in my 1992 CX hatch. This motor set-up demolishes my old set-up and most certainly rapes and pillages the B16A2, but then again it should. This dynoed 175whp and 123ft/lbs. of torque and busted 13.9@100.97mph in full street trim on street tirs in my Si hatch and ran 13.3@99mph on 20'' baby slicks in my CX hatch in horrible elevation and heat.
Cars being equal, the B18C1 was the overall best value though IMO. This is all relative on pricing though, so in my case my B18C5 didn't cost me a penny more than my GS-R swap because I got a killer deal from the ITR's orig. owner after he totalled it and bought it back from insurance.
Each motor is bad-***, and none of them feel slow. The B16A2 definately has to revved to **** just to get any power out of it, while the B18C1 has much more power down low than the B16A2 and even more down low than the B18C5.
I'll be back to check in on this thread, but I think I've got a very fair comparison since I've driven all 3 swaps in the same car under every condition imaginable.
So like I said before, what about PRICE? Price should be a big factor too.
Here's a few examples of the going rate for the various motor swaps in terms of COMPLETE swaps. A complete swap includes:
Engine, Tranny, ECU, Engine Harness, All hoses uncut, shift linkage, all mounts, exhaust manifold w/cat and 02 sensors, axles, and intermediate shaft.
I know of a few places that sell these such swaps and one of them in Import Auto Salvage. 1-800-962-8922. Their pricing is a little high compared to some, but the thoroughness of the swap is unmateched, and their prices usually go like this:
Del Sol VTEC B16A3: $2,300-$2,900
99-00 Civic Si B16A2: $3,600-$3,900
1994-up Integra GS-R: $3,200-$4,000
B18C5 from 1997-2001 ITR: $5,200-$6,500
Of course mileage is the biggest determinant of price,and I am just going from memory, so you'll need to call them before you go quoting me, because I do NOT work there nor do I represent the company here.
Another source for a swap that I hear nothing but good from is Honda Motors Online.
http://www.hondamotorsonline.com
They advertise COMPLETE USDM and even JDM swaps because they buy whole front clips. The only thing you'll need for the swap that they can't supply is a perfect-fitting engine harness if you get a JDM motor - JDM motors obviously have wiring that suits RHD cars
Their prices are lower too - check their site and you'll find $2,350 gets you a JDM 1992-1995 SiR or SiRII "2nd-gen" B16A with grey plugs and OBD1 ECU, etc.
ITR swaps go for aroung $4,800 too, which is a killer deal IMO.
Check this stuff out and make your motor choice based on what you can afford - breaking your bank will hurt you more in the long run than running .5 slower in the 1/4 mile.
One last thing:
You will hear many different opinions about how you should buy the cheaper motor and build it, or you should just buy the best motor from the start, but there's not one clear best answer.
I used to think that you could simply buy a B18C1 and build it to be better than the B18C5 for the same price.
NOT true.
Let's compare, shall we?
B18C1: can be had for a good cheap price of $3,300+shipping. We'll say $3,300 to be safe.
B18C5: Can be had for $4,800+shipping.
So let's say you gut the B18C1 and you "saved" $1,500 because you didn't get the B18C5.
So what do you have to buy in order to get the same type of results as you would with the B18C5? Here we go:
Skunk2 intake manifold. Usually around $300 for the B18C1.
With that manifold you will need a different computer. The P72 GS-R ECU has a 4500rpm VTEC and programming for the secondary butterflies to open up at 600orpm or so. This will suck *** for the Skunk2 manifold, so you will need a re-chipped P28 ECU for roughly $230.00 from H-T's own user "kenji."
ITR cams or at least a CTR intake cam: $250 for CTR cam, $400 for ITR cams.
Higher CR pistons. ITR has higher CR pistons with an anti-friction moly coating in the sides and skirts. You can get JDM ITR pistons for lik3 $330 with rings from various on-line sources.
The ITR head is the same casting as the B16A head, but it has been hand polished from Honda. All in all you can make good power with the B18C1 head, so I won't even add the cost of a mild P&P for it, but you should know that there is a difference.
B18C5 also has lighter valves and retainers, lighter flywheel and lighter, stronger crank, all of which make the motor better, but if you're concerned JUST about whp then these aren't that important in the long run.
Also keep in mind the LABOR in all of this. Cams and pistons being installed is not cheap, and you're basically tearing the motor apart. Keep that in mind too.
So now you're making the same or *maybe* even more power, right? What about the tranny? The GS-R tranny has slightly taller gearing to compliment the broader powerband that it has over the B16A and B18C5. This is NOT the best gearing for all-motor with a ITR-style manifold. With the ITR-programmed ECU, you will drop out of VTEC with the GS-R tranny unless you hit absolute redline, and even still you may drop out on certain shifts.
Also, the ITR tranny has LSD which helps out the cornering immensely and does help hook up better at the strip if you have slicks.
So, sell the GS-R tranny for about $800.00 (going rate, but the price keeps going down) and buy an ITR tranny used for $1,200.00 or so.
So what's the total damage then? Could you duplicate a "poor man's ITR" by buying a B18C1 and building it up and still spend les tha you would have on an ITR B18C5?
Math please:
$3,300+$300+$230+$250+$330+$400(difference in tranny)+LABOR =
$5,140.00 + LABOR
How much can you get the B18C5 or JDM ITR B18C for again?
$4,800.00
See what I mean? And I will say this and you can argue all you want to, but from what I've seen this is totally true:
You cannot beat a stock Honda engine build.
Every time you open up an engine and re-build it, you add human error into the equation and even the best engine builders can make mistakes, or perhaps that "good" engine builder isn't so good after all.
I have seen enough smoking B18C1's that were "built" enough to know that my B18C5 is a true testament to Honda reliability and power. I rev mine to 9000K at least once a day and it never smokes even at 50K miles or so.
So that was just a break down of the B18C1 vs. B18C5. What about the B16A?
What would you have to do to get the B16A to put out similiar numbers to the B18C1 or even B18C5?
Add a stroker kit in there for the B16A, and the labor for that too
[Modified by B18C5-EH2, 10:56 AM 6/2/2002]
I've said this at least 50 times on this MB, but I'm sure those posts are long gone now:
I have owned all 3 of the common VTEC swaps in the exact same type of car.
1999 B16A2 from Civic Si coupe. It's in my girl's 1992 Si hatchback. Dynoed 143whp, 102ft/lbs. torque. Car feels great, but cannot compare to the other motor set-ups that I had in my 1992 Si hatchback.
1995 B18C1 from Integra GS-R. Had it in my 1992 Si hatch and it would romp her car all day long from any stop, roll, corner exit, etc. Dynoed 150whp and 122ft/lbs. of torque. True the gearing is a little more spaced than the B16A, but it doesn't matter because these motors have a BROAD powerband that compliments the taller gearing. This car busted 14.7 in full street trim even on shitty 16'' wheels/tires.
1998 USDM B18C5 from ITR. Had this after the B18C1 in the same 1992 Si hatch and it now resides in my 1992 CX hatch. This motor set-up demolishes my old set-up and most certainly rapes and pillages the B16A2, but then again it should. This dynoed 175whp and 123ft/lbs. of torque and busted 13.9@100.97mph in full street trim on street tirs in my Si hatch and ran 13.3@99mph on 20'' baby slicks in my CX hatch in horrible elevation and heat.
Cars being equal, the B18C1 was the overall best value though IMO. This is all relative on pricing though, so in my case my B18C5 didn't cost me a penny more than my GS-R swap because I got a killer deal from the ITR's orig. owner after he totalled it and bought it back from insurance.
Each motor is bad-***, and none of them feel slow. The B16A2 definately has to revved to **** just to get any power out of it, while the B18C1 has much more power down low than the B16A2 and even more down low than the B18C5.
I'll be back to check in on this thread, but I think I've got a very fair comparison since I've driven all 3 swaps in the same car under every condition imaginable.
So like I said before, what about PRICE? Price should be a big factor too.
Here's a few examples of the going rate for the various motor swaps in terms of COMPLETE swaps. A complete swap includes:
Engine, Tranny, ECU, Engine Harness, All hoses uncut, shift linkage, all mounts, exhaust manifold w/cat and 02 sensors, axles, and intermediate shaft.
I know of a few places that sell these such swaps and one of them in Import Auto Salvage. 1-800-962-8922. Their pricing is a little high compared to some, but the thoroughness of the swap is unmateched, and their prices usually go like this:
Del Sol VTEC B16A3: $2,300-$2,900
99-00 Civic Si B16A2: $3,600-$3,900
1994-up Integra GS-R: $3,200-$4,000
B18C5 from 1997-2001 ITR: $5,200-$6,500
Of course mileage is the biggest determinant of price,and I am just going from memory, so you'll need to call them before you go quoting me, because I do NOT work there nor do I represent the company here.
Another source for a swap that I hear nothing but good from is Honda Motors Online.
http://www.hondamotorsonline.com
They advertise COMPLETE USDM and even JDM swaps because they buy whole front clips. The only thing you'll need for the swap that they can't supply is a perfect-fitting engine harness if you get a JDM motor - JDM motors obviously have wiring that suits RHD cars
Their prices are lower too - check their site and you'll find $2,350 gets you a JDM 1992-1995 SiR or SiRII "2nd-gen" B16A with grey plugs and OBD1 ECU, etc.
ITR swaps go for aroung $4,800 too, which is a killer deal IMO.
Check this stuff out and make your motor choice based on what you can afford - breaking your bank will hurt you more in the long run than running .5 slower in the 1/4 mile.
One last thing:
You will hear many different opinions about how you should buy the cheaper motor and build it, or you should just buy the best motor from the start, but there's not one clear best answer.
I used to think that you could simply buy a B18C1 and build it to be better than the B18C5 for the same price.
NOT true.
Let's compare, shall we?
B18C1: can be had for a good cheap price of $3,300+shipping. We'll say $3,300 to be safe.
B18C5: Can be had for $4,800+shipping.
So let's say you gut the B18C1 and you "saved" $1,500 because you didn't get the B18C5.
So what do you have to buy in order to get the same type of results as you would with the B18C5? Here we go:
Skunk2 intake manifold. Usually around $300 for the B18C1.
With that manifold you will need a different computer. The P72 GS-R ECU has a 4500rpm VTEC and programming for the secondary butterflies to open up at 600orpm or so. This will suck *** for the Skunk2 manifold, so you will need a re-chipped P28 ECU for roughly $230.00 from H-T's own user "kenji."
ITR cams or at least a CTR intake cam: $250 for CTR cam, $400 for ITR cams.
Higher CR pistons. ITR has higher CR pistons with an anti-friction moly coating in the sides and skirts. You can get JDM ITR pistons for lik3 $330 with rings from various on-line sources.
The ITR head is the same casting as the B16A head, but it has been hand polished from Honda. All in all you can make good power with the B18C1 head, so I won't even add the cost of a mild P&P for it, but you should know that there is a difference.
B18C5 also has lighter valves and retainers, lighter flywheel and lighter, stronger crank, all of which make the motor better, but if you're concerned JUST about whp then these aren't that important in the long run.
Also keep in mind the LABOR in all of this. Cams and pistons being installed is not cheap, and you're basically tearing the motor apart. Keep that in mind too.
So now you're making the same or *maybe* even more power, right? What about the tranny? The GS-R tranny has slightly taller gearing to compliment the broader powerband that it has over the B16A and B18C5. This is NOT the best gearing for all-motor with a ITR-style manifold. With the ITR-programmed ECU, you will drop out of VTEC with the GS-R tranny unless you hit absolute redline, and even still you may drop out on certain shifts.
Also, the ITR tranny has LSD which helps out the cornering immensely and does help hook up better at the strip if you have slicks.
So, sell the GS-R tranny for about $800.00 (going rate, but the price keeps going down) and buy an ITR tranny used for $1,200.00 or so.
So what's the total damage then? Could you duplicate a "poor man's ITR" by buying a B18C1 and building it up and still spend les tha you would have on an ITR B18C5?
Math please:
$3,300+$300+$230+$250+$330+$400(difference in tranny)+LABOR =
$5,140.00 + LABOR
How much can you get the B18C5 or JDM ITR B18C for again?
$4,800.00
See what I mean? And I will say this and you can argue all you want to, but from what I've seen this is totally true:
You cannot beat a stock Honda engine build.
Every time you open up an engine and re-build it, you add human error into the equation and even the best engine builders can make mistakes, or perhaps that "good" engine builder isn't so good after all.
I have seen enough smoking B18C1's that were "built" enough to know that my B18C5 is a true testament to Honda reliability and power. I rev mine to 9000K at least once a day and it never smokes even at 50K miles or so.
So that was just a break down of the B18C1 vs. B18C5. What about the B16A?
What would you have to do to get the B16A to put out similiar numbers to the B18C1 or even B18C5?
Add a stroker kit in there for the B16A, and the labor for that too[Modified by B18C5-EH2, 10:56 AM 6/2/2002]
06-02-2002, 09:17 AM
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (B18C5-EH2)
B18C5-EH2, I have a question for you, how come you left out the H22A?? I went to the site that younposted a link to, they had the H22A for $2400. Does this engine have VTEC or not. B/C if it doesn't, that answers my question. I was just wondering, thanks.
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06-02-2002, 09:53 AM
#8
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (Briman2021)
I left out the H22A because it is NOT a complete bolt-in swap like the B-Series motors are. They can be bolted in with a $600 bolt-in mount kit from HAsport or Place.
I really don't want to get into the B-Series vs. H-series motor debate. It has been beaten to death and there will never be a clear answer as far as I'm concerned.
I really don't want to get into the B-Series vs. H-series motor debate. It has been beaten to death and there will never be a clear answer as far as I'm concerned.
06-02-2002, 10:12 AM
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (B18C5-EH2)
what about the b20/vtec? is it about the same price as a b18c1? say an obd1 b16a complete swap is about $2400, and b20z shortblock would be about $800. with replacement rod bolts plus labor, would it be about the same price as a b18c1 complete swap?
06-02-2002, 10:26 AM
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (trix are for kids)
Refer back to B18C5-EH2's point about 'factory built' vs. 'engine builder built'. B20 VTEC is a monster, but it will cost big $$$ to a) get the right parts to build it correctly (rods/pistons, etc) b) find someone who can do it competently c) tune it so it will run the way it's supposed to.
Heavily modified motors require a LOT of patience.
Heavily modified motors require a LOT of patience.
06-02-2002, 10:57 AM
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (B18C5-EH2)
wow, yeah i forgot to mention the c5...
i was thinking the same thing, i just didnt have the facts.
also your point about "nothing being better than a stock honda build" is very true IMO
thanks for all the b16 input.... i agree that getting the c5 will cost me less in the long run
thanks eh2
i was thinking the same thing, i just didnt have the facts.
also your point about "nothing being better than a stock honda build" is very true IMO
thanks for all the b16 input.... i agree that getting the c5 will cost me less in the long run
thanks eh2
06-02-2002, 10:59 AM
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (PIMENTEL)
EH2...
i just noticed you're from georgia....
i will be moving from california to s. carolina in about a month
am i going to have a hell of a time finding a good swap?
i just noticed you're from georgia....
i will be moving from california to s. carolina in about a month
am i going to have a hell of a time finding a good swap?
06-02-2002, 11:24 AM
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (highpsi)
the above guy has no idea what hes talkin about
and talks like Stone Cold Steve Austin. [Modified by EKmike, 8:27 PM 6/2/2002]
06-02-2002, 11:42 AM
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (EKmike)
B18C5-EH2 it bang on IMO. I've currently got a 200whp B18C1 in my 93 hatch but I've had so many reliability problems I'm very seriously considering going to a stock B18C5 so that I can race more and wrench less. With all the $ I've dumped into my engine I could have probably bought 2 B18C5's by now...
Just let me reiterate, you cannot beat a stock Honda engine build...I have a friend who put 230,000 hard kilometers on his Type R engine, with LOTS of track racing, before it went on him. That's damn impressive if you ask me.
If I could do it all over again, I'd have bought a JDM Type R drivetrain and just gone racing and had fun with it instead of putting countless dollars and tons of work into my built engine.
Just let me reiterate, you cannot beat a stock Honda engine build...I have a friend who put 230,000 hard kilometers on his Type R engine, with LOTS of track racing, before it went on him. That's damn impressive if you ask me.
If I could do it all over again, I'd have bought a JDM Type R drivetrain and just gone racing and had fun with it instead of putting countless dollars and tons of work into my built engine.
06-02-2002, 11:42 AM
#16
Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (bretx0r)
There's no doubt that a B18C will walk all over a B16. I have a 99 B18C1 in my 92 VX and never even cosidered a B16A2. I also dropped a 96 B18B1 into my 91 CRX instead of a first gen B16A simply for the torque. When your driving around town the extra torque is good. On the high end the B16 is better than an LS but you have to run it hard to see that power.
06-02-2002, 12:54 PM
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Re: bang4theBUCK b18c b16a... (B18C5-EH2)
Alright, cool, thanks for answering my question. I didnt know about the $600 thing you needed to buy to install it. Because, without that, you would be looking at 200 hp and a lot more torque for $50 more. Also, I know how it weighs more and supposedly cause more understeer. I dont care right now, I dont have enough money for that stuff anyway!!
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08-29-2002 08:55 PM
