JuicedUpRice

hi guys.
after my 14b turbo took a dump,i went ahead and picked up a 16g from a friend.the turbo is good,he pulled it off after showing me it works with his setup.


i put the turbo on my car and took it for a spin,boosted fantastically!
came home,got my brother to take him for a spin and got on it hard,boosted fantastically!
came back home,dropped him off,and went for another go around the block,NO BOOST.WTF.and the car is driving like a tank(slow)

i checked EVERYTHING i could think of.I went as far as taking off the entire turbo kit to see if my car was maybe not running right or something.it runs absolutely perfect without the turbo kit off.

so i put it all back on.went for a spin,and now im only barely touching 1psi on the boost gauge,but it doesnt feel like im boosting at all.still drives like a tank.

ive tried my best to check for ic piping leaks,everything looks good to me.all couplers are tight and seem to be securely on the piping.
the mani is tight against the head.
my turbo spins freely.oil lines are good and it is getting very well lubricated,and oil is draining as it should.
i took my wastegate fully apart,diaphram looks brand new,and the spring is good(its a 10psi spring)i have been running the wastegate closed though,for more boost.
sometimes i hear my bov,but i could be imagining it and it might just be an after spool of some sort from the turbo..dunno.i heard it clearly when it was boosting,and it is blowing out air when i let go of the throttle,as it should.ive tried adjusting the screw all different ways..
no exhaust clog problems,i have removed the downpipe for now.open header.
i have removed the intercooler for now as well.short routed.

the only REAL problem i am noticing right now is my idle.when i start the car up,it sits perfectly at 1000rpm.after sitting in idle for about a minute,it starts to raise a little,maybe to 1500,but sometimes all the way up to 2000rpms.and then it will just sit there until i go for a drive or let it warm up all the way.when i go for a drive and then put it in neutral to slow down or change gears,the idle will go down,then shoot up,then go down,then shoot up..this could be an unrelated issue,but i was thinking its a vacuum leak of some sort.it did not do this before..

vacuum gauge sits at -15psi,i THINK it was at -20psi before..

my vacuum lines are pretty crappy,i will admit.But i did smoke the lines last night and found NO LEAKS,that i could point out anyways.I also smoked the exhaust manifold and found NO LEAKS,and that one is definite.

i am also experiencing what feels to be a fuel cut.absolutely no idea why.and while im flooring it,it will hesitate around 4k and then pick back up.has my fuel pump or fpr gone bad???i did notice the other day that pressure at the rail was sitting at 0psi.i restarted it and it was back up to 40psi.i adjusted it to 45 psi before i took it for a drive with boost.

what is the deal!?please help me,i just cant figure this out..ive been really patient with this,but just cant pinpoint a problem..
I know my engine is healthy,i know my turbo stuff works,because it was working just fine..its like it boosts when it wants to,and usually only when im tampering with everything,in which case i never catch what i actually did to fix it!LOL godammit..


any help is EXTREMELY appreciated,i want my boost back!


91 integra da9
3xxx miles on build!!
b18a1 engine
b18b oversized valves,valvetrain,cams
race rod bearings
race piston rings
Fmu 10:1
cast iron mani
ebay xspower wastegate
hks bov(older style with adjusting screw)
mishimoto intercooler piping and ic
16g turbo


I am working on it right now,all day until i fix it .in the freezing cold,with 4 layers of clothing on lol.So my eyes and ears are open!

MalcolmV8

wow you've checked a lot. I'd look into why your vacuum has dropped from 20 Hg to 15. Might do a compression and leak down test too and make sure that's good.

When your turbo spools is it loud? Can you hear if it's even spooling at all when you get on it?

Also your fuel issue. You said you read 0 PSI at the rail and then had to restart the car and saw 40. I don't see how it was even running with 0. Definitely sort out the fuel issue especially if you are experiencing a fuel cut issue.

What sort of engine management are you using? does it offer some good datalogging? Have you tried datalogging a run and looked that over?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Could be collapsing vacuum lines, as well as possibly a leaky BOV. I still think you need to put a boost pressure tester (you can even make one online i'm sure) to verify leaks. Most you won't ever hear or even see, they can be so slight.

Make sure that tune hasn't been corrupted. If you have to ability to check the files and send to your tuner, or investigate these steps. I'd try it.

JuicedUpRice

yea i know man,its crazy!

and yes,it did run when it showed 0psi at the rail..that confused the S#it out of me lol..i even let it idle for a total of 30 minutes like that before i noticed it..but after i restarted it,i havent seen the problem since..

i have done a compression test when i took the turbo off.my numbers were
#4-180
#3-180
#2-185
#1-180

Right now i am in the process of swapping all the vacuum lines with brand new ones, to rule it out,and hopefully fix the vacuum issue.

i am also replacing my dizzy cap,because i noticed this cutout problem after i swapped a used one in that i thought was ok,so i could preserve the new one..

i also just picked up some new spark plugs.ngk platinum plugs


^replacing vacuum lines now

i taped off around the bov,still the same..


and im sorry,i forgot to mention.This is an untuned setup.i installed the gauge in my rail and it is adjustable,so ive been running it rich (45psi),along with my fmu.i like doing it old school,i dont tune.this isnt my first time doing it this way,and ive had very successful builds done the same way,with no problems..

it seems almost like my motor doesnt have enough power to put through the turbo,or something is restricting the airflow or restricting the motors output...??i dont know,im so confused...

ill look into the boost pressure tester,thanks.

if it says anything,i can cover the intake side of the turbo with my hand and it sucks my hand hard and the idle will drop and the motor feels like its dying out..



also,i just confirmed i can SLIGHTLY hear the blow off valve,or some kind of air release,i cannot hear the turbo spool at all..but i see it spinning at idle..

i am doing TONS of research,and have found many threads that sounds just like mine,but end with something i have checked already or an unrelated issue..


Update:
found a leak at the map sensor,fixed all vacuum lines.now it is at a solid -18psi(looks about right,and is holding good)
idle issue is gone.no change

new cap installed,no change.

also,when i rev it in nuetral,i have a cutoff at around 4-5k rpms.

removing old p.o.s. spark plugs and replacing with ngks now.
EDIT!!!found oil in my spark plug holes!!what the F yo..
im guessing that since my compression showed good,that my valve stem seals and piston rings are ok,and that this is probably a blown valve cover gasket..
there isnt a puddle down there,but there is enough to cutout my spark plugs,or at least cut out the wire to the spark plugs..
just threw in the new ngks,cutout is gone..jesus.. how embarrassing..
still no boost though guys..

MalcolmV8

Do you have enough ventilation from your valve cover for blow by when in boost? When I was in my initial days doing a lot of testing and tweaking I had the valve cover on and off so many times I lost count experimenting with different options and one time the spark plug tube caught the seal at the top pinching it and not making a good seal. When I closed off one of the additional valve cover vents the pressure proved to be to much and forced oil out the seals at the top of the spark plug tubes and it ran down and made a pool around the plugs like you described.

Have you checked the turbo itself? something odd like the turbine housing bolts coming loose and leaking air out causing it to not spool?

To bad Wichita is about 3 1/2 hours away or I'd come over and help you.

JuicedUpRice

my valve cover has taken some damage over the build,with me removing it over and over..i just installed this new gasket a few months ago,but i think the screw things that the cover gets held down by are stripped(not the bolts,the actual screws from the head,bolts are brand new),but its not terrible..

what vents do you mean?where it originally went from the valve cover to the intake pipe?i have a filter over it,if thats the one youre talking about.

i went over all the mani and o2 housing bolts,everything is so tight i cant even loosen it haha.i did smoke test the mani and o2 housing,everything is sealed there..

and the turbo itself is still spinning freely,and spins in idle too..

its ok man,thanks though.im sure we'll figure this out..i have faith

MalcolmV8

Yes that's the vent. I drilled an additional hole in my valve cover and welded in a barb and ran a second hose to the catch can. The stock factory one alone was not enough.

JuicedUpRice

well,im not saying youre wrong,just wondering if that really would effect this in my position,especially after it was working fine,and then just up and quit boosting..

keep the ideas coming,im appreciative of the responses.the engine is running very well now,so at least we're getting somewhere with this.

a1320honda

What size injectors? how much boost? What ratio FMU? Is the ECU chipped? Setup to not look for boost? Check valves on the map sensor? CEL?

In our day and time, i dont understand why your using an FMU and dont at least have a chipped ECU with at minimum a basemap installed.

JuicedUpRice

stock injectors,10psi at the moment(wastegate hose connected),fmu is a 10:1 i believe,and yes i had a check valve at the map sensor,but with it on,the car tries to die when i press the gas..,no cel.nothing is done to the ecu..

a1320honda

STOP! No more boost lol. Get that FMU off, get some DSM 450's at least, and a chipped ECU and get a tune. All of that is relatively inexpensive and you wont ever regret it. With the map sensor seeing boost, its gonna run like ****. With a chipped ECU and a stock map sensor is good to 11psi. Your gonna end up killing that motor if you dont. Im assuming you have no sort of wideband, if you did, i guarantee it would either be waaay rich or waaay lean.

DSM injector usually go for $50
chipped ecu $100 give or take
tune, i charge $150 here in spokane for a simple basic wideband basic street tune. Im sure where your at somone can do that. A little work and $300-$400 and you will enjoy the setup far more.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Heh. i remembering running that setup for years. 2 older guys I know still have that up and running, so no, its not optimal and nothing I'd do in 2012, but back in 1996, that's just what we did.. 240whp of reliable power (though we used a 12:1 FMU and not 10:1 which is pretty rich).

I'd look at the other issues mechanically first before just tossing up an "old school" setup such as this.. Hell, I still have an old Accel DFI somewhere in my basement, and that was state of the art then.

JuicedUpRice

nice to know someone as respectable as you has done it,and agrees that it works fine..


I got my check valve problem fixed..it was stupid.it was brand new when i put it on,and only had a tiny hole through it,so i got a boby pin and poked through more of the rubber inside it..lol.now its good,check valve is in and working good.

still no boost!

i havent tried resetting my ecu since i fixed the map sensor issues,so ill do that now.
edit:still no change...

JuicedUpRice

ugh..heres the update.


i snapped the shaft...yep,its completely in half and the exhaust fan was stuck in the o2 housing, destroyed.

i also found a hole blown through the bottom of one of the pipes..

MalcolmV8

Oh bummer. So what pipe had a hole in it?

JuicedUpRice

more like a wide crack really...it was at the bottom of the bov pipe,barely covered by a coupler..

its kinda funny,at least i know what it is now,that's a relief...i was at the point of checking everything over and over and over..



well ****,now im broke.

MalcolmV8

So the shaft in the turbo snapped right? so the compressor wheel and the turbine where turning independently of each other? sucks you didn't catch that one earlier. Kind of an odd thing to snap isn't it? How old is the turbo? brand etc. Just curious, not bashing it.

SiRCiviC94

interesting read lol so what happened is the motor still ok?

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Its a 14b Turbocharger out of a mitsubishi 1st generation Eagle Talon or Mitsu Eclipse turbo. The turbo could easily have hundreds of thousands of miles on it, which is why they go for so cheap from others with DSMs that decide to upgrade. Its hard to kill one of those turbos, but with enough abuse, mileage, inadequate oil supply , etc, its very easy to surmise that the turbo was eventually going to fail. cest la vie.

What you need to be concerned with is FOD within the rest of the engine. You need to make sure there's no chunks of the turbo anywhere else in the system.

It also means its time to get something a little newer, and robust.

MalcolmV8

Thanks for explaining

a1320honda

He said he already had a 14B fail, then he put a 16G on it and that failed too. Id say theres something more going on. Whether its an inadequate supply of oil or something, but it would be hard to believe that its just a coincidence that 2 turbos just horribly failed. Last couple of times ive seen an exhaust wheel come off an MHI turbo has been due to lack of oil.

JuicedUpRice

it is a 16g from my friends parts car dsm,it snapped obviously(to me)from taking a beating at the exhaust wheel..the intake side wheel still spun freely,so everytime i was spinning it,i couldnt tell it was broken..

the motor is still running/driving great!

i still have that 14b,but it has major shaft play.everytime i rebuild it and put it back in,the c ring pops out after a run and causes the turbo to lock up within minutes..and because of that,the intake side wheel is beat up..


ive heard of stories of overspin..is this possible?maybe i had a boost leak at high rpms on that last run with my bro,and it caused the turbo to overspin and then wobble and get destroyed?i dont know..ive never had a situation like this before..


as far as i know,the oil lines were fine.i made sure that it was draining.i did however find a bunch of gold stuff at the feed line..but i figured that was just debris from the turbo blowing..


but like i said,i have no idea what really happened..


all i know is that this sucks,im really liking the boost/fast spool from these little dsm turbos.i really dont want to get a different kind of turbo lol..

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

I understand, but its actually not THAT hard for two mitsus both a 14B and a 16G to fail if he got them used. I agree, I'd look into other issues, but snapping shafts isn't just about oil, its about the abuse its been through, and or the materials it may have been rebuilt with. But I won't co-sign to any fact that it was the vortech FMU's fault. It may be where he's getting the turbos from and how he's routing oil and setup. I'd definitely stop getting these turbos from "friends" and start fresh.