All I have to say is WOW! I think you guys are getting a little too serious here but I'm getting some very useful information on this thread. I am tho a little concerned about my setup, maybe you guys can answer my simple ?. I am currently almost done building a golden eagle sleeved ls/vtec blowzilla powered aem tuned integra and recently had the head built here at Wyotech.....I pnp the head myself and my instructor did a three angle valve job on it. My ? is, I'm running gsr cams, Rev dual springs, and KMS forged aluminum retainers with stock keepers. Do you guys think i'll have any problems at 9k at 30psi? Also, this is assuming that the head is assembled correctly and valve lash is adjusted to spec. Also, I want to thank earl for helping me out in an indirect way. Earl my buddy dave called you(Dave Horst from Ohio?) and asked you if running a lost motion assembly with no c-clip in it was fine to install and you said yes. That ? for my cylinder head so I thank you for taking out the time to answer my buddies ? for me!! Keep the thread rockin........
Ryan


Modified by Teglove2 at 4:36 AM 2/16/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Teglove2 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> My ? is, I'm running gsr cams, Rev dual springs, and KMS forged aluminum retainers with stock keepers. Do you guys think i'll have any problems at 9k at 30psi? </TD></TR></TABLE>

My concern with mix and matching different brands can lead to some issues. Read over what ***** had written on his comments. The different brands may not be totally compatible and can cause problems. I always recommend using the same brand retainers and springs with each other. You never know which springs KMS based their retainers on.

 

First, I am not defending Supertech brand since you didn’t say what brand they were, although we know the intentions of your posting (you are a naughty boy....) .
I am against and amazed at the level of certain childish attitudes and the lack of responsibility and knowledge.
It is really unbelievable that some (supposedly grown up) people don’t know how to behave in a community yet.

If this forum is intended for adolescents under 18, then my apologies for my misunderstanding but I think that the participants are looking for something of a different level of knowledge.

If you don’t know what happened, present the topic as a question, not as a statement, and look for help for answers.

These were your responses to the possible reasons:
a) “ I was told.......”
b) Doesn’t look like.....
c) Not to my knowledge....
d) No “signs”.....(and with your manifested (see below) lack of experience what can we think...........)
e) We expect you to say that is “perfect” of course
f) As above
g) My response is that to get the same results you have to exactly duplicate the same conditions, thing that is almost impossible.
And you said that “and the valve looks to still be straight with the rolling on the table test” ........well..., what kind of readings did you get in this way ? This method is used by the mechanic around the corner when he is trying to put a valve into a 87 Pinto or whatever, not for a race engine, come on...........

So you agreeing here that you really don’t know what the real conditions were and what happened, but before you stated that none of these conditions happened.

So......I think that this discussion has no sense at all and we know why......................

But to finish.......you stated the following:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In the years I've spent in racing shops and ran mine I have never even seen another valve failure from an aftermarket valve from anything other then it hitting a piston or running no lash caps on Ti valves. I’m sure you as a rep from a valve manufacturer that sells hundreds of thousands to millions of valves a year you have seen many more such cases thru breakage or R&D,but this is how I see it.I didn't want to get into an argument w/you thats why I didn't name the valve company,but I've explained my thoughts on what happened.I would appreciate it if you can tell me how and where I misjudged the situation for future reference sir, it's the only way I'll learn .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes, you are right here about the quantities. Between the OE valves that are delivered to car engine manufacturers around the world (including for the Ferrari 360 in Italy), and the high performance valves, we manufacture 55,000 valves per day (yes per day!!), so you can imagine the level of experience, knowledge and level of quality controls that we need to have (of course ISO 9002 international certification).

Again, here you are stating here that you don’t have enough experience. And this is Ok, but you are presenting Facts as a “very experienced professional working with the top guys”.
Burnt valves is an issue that has been happening since the invention of the valve and every mechanic I know has come across one in his career, but you have never seen one before..................
So you have been very lucky in having the chance of doing the head for all those big name racers although they were done for free (and although you are not doing several of those any more.....and I don’t know why.....).

Again, if you don’t know what happened, present the topic as a question, not as a statement, and look for help for answers.

Again, all this is the product of your naively presented intentions and my chance to show people something else.

Nobody knows exactly why that valve burnt, but I can assure you that under the same conditions, any valve from any manufacturer would have burnt, and if the conditions were sufficiently bad, even Inconel valves could have burnt.

I think we have said everything and we are not going to clarify anything else in this way.

I recommend that you don’t do any posting of this king for your own sake because you will be getting deeper and deeper in deep .....and can ruin your future career.

There are no hard feelings against you, feel free to call me or send me an e-mail if you need any help and in this way you may learn something and avoid burning yourself publicly.

BUT PLEASE............. DO NOT TOUCH ANY SUPERTECH PRODUCT AGAIN WITHOUT MY CONSENTMENT, SO I CAN EXPLAIN YOU WHAT YOU ARE GETTING AND THE APPLICATION.
IF A CUSTOMER SHOWS UP WITH OUR PRODUCTS PLEASE ASK HIM TO CONTACT ME.

Have a good day

 

I just noticed that in my previous posting shown below (and in reply to the wrong person when it was a response to HEAD..sorry...)
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a) Springs were too soft for that application, valves were floating and when that happens, the keepers can separate and clamp back in the wrong position.

b) b) The combination of keeper and retainer you were using didn’t have the correct matching angles, so the keeper “clamping” forces were incorrectly applied. In other words, they may have been pulling the valve from the keeper groove. As you can understand the groove is the weakest part of the valve, so it is VERY important that the keepers excercise a good clamping force BELOW the keeper groove, which mostly acts as a “locator” for the keeper.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I forgot to add the most important and common reason for a valve pulling through the keeper, and that would be the following:

c) Valve Spring Coil Binding: this is a common problem with inexperienced or careless engine builders. If you coil bind the spring (because the retainer locates too low, or the cam lift is too big for that spring) something has to let go. It could be the camshaft, the rocker arm or the valve has to be pushed through the keeper.


And this brings me to another topic of discussion here:

Supertech is one of the very few if not the ONLY manufacturer that carries ALL its Stainless Steel valve (chrome or black) made in ONE PIECE FORGED.
Others make SOME valves in this way and many others as a two piece. Check them out.

Please have always a magnet around you and you can check this VERY easily. You will be surprised how many of the valves that has been defended here as one piece are a TWO PIECE valve. Believe me, you will be surprised and will surprise also the people who stated this.

Another thing, and related to the possibility of a valve being pushed through the keeper, is that our valves have a hardened pad friction welded to the tip of the valve, way over the groove of the valve and with a well defined thickness.

Other manufacturers, like one mentioned here before, weld the hard tip in “any place” and without caring about the thickness of this pad. This means that the welding of that hard tip coincides many time just were the groove is machined. In other words, you have a welding right at the weakest part of the valve were the groove is. Scary isn’t it ?

We know our competitors products more than you may think, sometimes even more than the employees you talk to at their companies. We do deep laboratory analysis, from materials and heat treatments to coating thicknesses and manufacturing process employed, so we know what is the true, we don't guess. Otherwise we wouldn't be able to be better.

And sometimes we put these competitors in line, as the case when a competitor was printing in his catalog how they were necking down the valve with a forging process, a complete lie that we confirmed in the laboratory and that supplier now removed that from the catalog to avoid legal troubles. This is how the competition acts many times.
So trust who you want to trust.

 

Good information. Hope that we can keep this friendly and professional so everybody can continue to learn from the technical (albeit somewhat argumentative) discussion going on.

P.S. Every motor I've tuned that has seen in excess of 10K has used supertech springs. A large majority of the motors I've tuned that have seen in excess of 9K are using the supertech valvetrain. Most use supertech valves in combination. None have experienced any valvetrain related failure under daily driven and race use. After seeing the tech support response here, I know I'll be sending some emails to supertech tech support next time we're putting together a high revving motor. As a former IT industry guy, you can't really overstate the extent to which support makes or breaks a product.

 

Yaknow ***** lets just agree to disagree,I have my opinion and you have yours.I have no hard feelings toward you because I really don't care how this goes one way or the other.I have no benefit either way,I have never been a dealer of any valve/parts manufacturer I just have a preference of use that's all.

But I have to tell you your talking down/insulting to me and then telling others to be mature is very funny.I have never claimed to be an expert but I did share my experience and background w/you.I didn't say I never saw a burnt exhaust valve in my exp,I said I never saw anything that wasn't caused by the piston hitting it first.If in that time I never witnessesed another valve failure then this one from an aftermarket valve besides how I stated,then hey,what can I say.I told you maybe I'm lucky,maybe I just have the good fortune to work for/do work for other engine builders who also do quality work and are willing to buy the best parts dismissing cost.

You brought up my biz's closing as something that has an ominous tone to it like I did bad work or ripped people off.That's very far from the case.Sometimes you get on the other side of the fence and it's not as much fun as you thought it was going to be.It's nice to just put in 8 a day and forget about work till tomorrow,that doesn't happen much as the owner as many of us know.Besides the whole political deal of customer/vendor relations isn't me I just want to work.I always got along well w/Dave and he's tried to get me to come work for him for years.I've done his seat and guide work since 02,hell I was there once or twice a week anyway for his machine work so it was easy.

As for the customers that left I'm not sure what you mean...The domestic guys were my bosses customers who went to the shop who bought his cnc machine/programs when he closed up and went to work in Dart's cnc room.Why would they come to me someone else had the cnc and the programs for their work.
The ones that are Dave's he still has unless they aren't running as far as I know,but I don't want to speak for Dave.

The only one on that list that's my shop's customer was Ferguson and he was there with me till the end,would have still been there if I hadn't shut down(as well as some other racers who were disappointed in my closing),we were already talking about his car and another project for this year.But as far as I know he's following me here to Head Games.

The only one of those jobs I wasn't paid for was John's.And what's up w/the fact that I sponsored Ferguson,is it somehow less meaningfull and I shouldn't be proud of his ET's because I didn't get paid for it??Wait didn't you sponsor them?So my work must not be good because I gave it to them but yours is even though you gave it to them also.

If you think I'm going to stick a broken/dirty valve in my nice equipment just to try to prove a point to someone who refuses to look anyway your way off brother.Besides I want it to look just as it came out of the motor forever.

Don't worry about me installing one of your valvetrains *****,Hell I didn't even install this one I told him I wouldn't do it,he put it together.And you did talk to this customer,he specifically told me many times during the build that he was talking to you.He even told me you sponsored him.

Since I never got personal unlike you,calling me a backyard mechanic and such,and tried to stay with the facts as honestly as I know/saw them I'm going to stop posting on this thread,if you wish to continue insulting me feel free to pm me at any time.
Ed

 

Are you done trying to make Ed and I look like idiots? I am speechless how ignorant you are in your words...

when someone points out a possible flaw in design the first thing you jump to is to discredit the person doing so, making him look incompetent and inexperienced?
I think your forgetting who you are talking too.
HeadGames and myself did not get where it is today by me being a stupid man. I am honest, intelligent and talented and when I see something I like or dislike I say it. I also like to surround myself with the likes of people who are like me..And when I am at fault, I have to problems admitting my own downfalls. You attacking my intelligence just shows how incredibly ignorant you are. I have forgotten more then you will ever know about flow testing and head porting, but I would never throw that in your face, even if that was the topic of conversation..and even if you were saying how much I sucked at it just because that's how you feel, it would all okay with me.. But I am glad you said the things you did so hopefully you can take a look at that, and learn to better yourself, as I am sure you are condescending in all aspects of your life and have had troubles in relationships of all kinds because of this...I don't fault you for being that way because I am wise, wise enough to know you have learned to be this way to make up for the way you sometimes feel inadequate. We all get those feelings from time to time, it's what you do in those moments that makes the difference. Putting someone down to try to make yourself look better is never the best option. My mom taught me that..

And what is this all for? because I have had bad experiences and talked to people whom have also had the same experience and it all comes down to a part that SuperTech doesn't even make. You schooled us all in how awesome your valves are, how your machining processes are second to none...but you build all that precision around a stock, stamped steel, albeit not precision piece. A keeper. Something you could make money on. You can't lose right? Something that says about your company that it refuses to leave quality to someone else. It means to me, that you don't settle, because your bad ***, and bad-asses never settle, there always trying to improve upon there subject.

I don't enjoy turning jobs down ***** because there is not a nice SuperTech valve lock to go with there bad *** valvetrain. I turn these jobs because I have seen what can happen when you use a stock lock, through experience, and I am again wise enough to know that when **** goes down there will be a need for an answer to the customer of what failed..and as you have showed and proved me right in my thinking...it could NEVER be the valvetrain manufacture, it is always the installer (re read your points as this is how you are coming across)...so to avoid this drama, the finger pointing, the blame and that dreaded phone call, I just turn the job down.
I like money...but not that much.

When you attacked Ed about who our customers have been and how we got them...again you must remember who your talking to.
I know where your lips would be if you had half the opportunity and success that HeadGames has had in regards to a client list...you couldn't give enough product away to some of the clients I have been fortunate enough to deal with to get them to switch. They would rather just pay for better quality. That's truth, whether you want to admit that or not. I don't give **** away to the guy qualifying in the back of the field..we give a deal with championship winning, record holding clients. They deserve that in my opinion because they have worked hard as we have for the same result. We are and have been apart of many teams, and have had unrivaled successes... So surely I am not as stupid as you would like me to think I am..

I am just going to agree with Ed..agree to disagree. I think we have valid points(all of us)and I have more... but you are unwilling to let go of ego. Until you rid yourself of your ego I can not learn anything from you, simply because your not willing to listen, only ready to speak, and speak condescending.
Our emotions can sometimes take us to a different place, lie to us in a way..but experience, *****, never lies. When you have guys like me talking, you should listen..we might actually have something important to say.

 

To lighten the mood, I was totally going to revise an entire long post for grammar errors

Then I decided I was too lazy...and I have some studying to do

So

Just uh...watch the tone; HEAD's most recent response was in decent taste. You just have to think...if your business were putting out a press release in response to some defect, how would you want that guy to write it ----&gt; You can make jokes since it's a forum

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by archmage &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To lighten the mood, I was totally going to revise an entire long post for grammar errors

Then I decided I was too lazy...and I have some studying to do

So

Just uh...watch the tone; HEAD's most recent response was in decent taste. You just have to think...if your business were putting out a press release in response to some defect, how would you want that guy to write it ----&gt; You can make jokes since it's a forum </TD></TR></TABLE>

That was a lightning of the mood, it actually made me realize I had one spelling mistake

I know this conversation has gotten heated...although entertaining and somewhat informative, you must understand that I can not let someone tell me that I did not experience something, that I really did..there is no pot strong enough that makes something like that happen. Weather a million people didn't see it and there was 17 who did..there's a problem, ...Imagine if Ford said the same thing about the Explorer? DO you remember how bad it looked on them when they just blamed the tire manufacture and didn't accept some blame onto themselves.
To call me a inexperienced liar and make me look like I just want to talk trash about your product is ridiculous..I don't have the time for such fool hardy adventures...and where would that get us?
I am talking about you improving upon a already decent product by adding something else to your line, not taking something away from it. I know your company is all about being the best and is getting after that..I applaud that and think it's going to happen, but in order to do that you must be able to take criticism and use it in a constructive way. I am sure we are beyond this now, but if I were to add a third line of valves to my arsenal...it would be SuperTech if it weren't for this. Customer service is great, and the valve is wildly popular..but attitudes of ego stop me dead in my tracks..

*****, could you post some pics of your valves after a engine failure, something bent up and twisted? Maybe out of someones race engine? Those kind of pics are always cool to look at... I have a really cool one that came out of StreetGlow's Solara when ALL the rods let loose, cool carnage!! and the stress tests..maybe you could enlighten us? I have never seen one and would be curious what they look like and what the results are. Teach me something, since that is what you keep saying you want to do..but this way your teaching all of us something. Your the only guy from any of the valve manufactures on here...take ADVANTAGE of that opportunity.

 

I said what I think based on all these years of reading what you guys have posted on the Forum.

Let me tell you something: real smart people never need to say that they are smart.

Now Dave, you are turning things around and trying the present them in a different way, but your intentions were clearly very different when you guys did the first postings, and every time you did a posting against Supertech in the past.

There has always been the same small group of guys that includes mainly you Dave and a few of your friends, that always and repeatedly over the years have had a public aggressive opposition towards Supertech that I couldn’t understand.

I have had a lot of patience (and you know that more than some other suppliers that have threatened you legally) and contacted you personally to find out what was your personal problems against Supertech and to let you know that you were giving opinions with no fundaments or enough knowledge. But you kept it going.

We all have the right to express opinions or thoughts freely, but if you don’t express them with responsibility and hurt others then you have to withstand the consequences. It is the law.

I think that I am very patient and quite old already (I am 52 so I am not a kid....) but I am far from being perfect, so after many times over the years of seeing how you repeatedly posted this kind of arguments, my patience got to the limit (I am Italian blooded....sorry.).

We love constructive criticism and competition, in fact WE NEED CRITICISM to learn what the customers need or to see things that we may have overseen, because we are not perfect but we look to improve every day.

BUT your critics were never “constructive” and this means aggressiveness, so if you push and push, at the end you will get what you are looking for. And here I am.

My participation in these forums is conflictive because for obvious reasons, everybody will think that my opinions are biased towards Supertech, which is true, although, being an engineer without sales education, I try to give objective technical facts.

I think that we are not going to solve anything here and doesn't make sense to keep this thread.
I only want to say that you have the right to think and say whatever you want, BUT if you keep posting them in the way you have been doing against Supertech (and don't act naively because we know your real intentions of "destructive criticism") you will have to take responsability and you may find me again.
And last, if you want to confirm that our valves bend, I can send you a free sample and you do the testing.
Or you can see the photo below (I hope it shows otherwise I will try to post it again later)

 

nice pictures did you get Superman to come over and bend those for you? hehe