I do not believe this is a result of a keeper

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PocketRockets Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Supertech is good, Ferrea is good, Manley are good, Crower are good....I have used them.
you want the best valves....go to DelWest....but be ready to mortgage.
I wouldn't blame this engine failure posted above on the valve manufacturer.
Detonation will do major damage...it "tulips" valves, bends rods, holes piston......its quite a powerful force.
where is the engine blueprint?
this seems like is another voodoo engine builder, throw parts in and hope it works....scarey ****.
I'd like to see all and every measurement......if you are going to use an engine for serious use, a proper blueprint is mandatory.
I am getting tired of people blaming their total lack of engine building skills on component manufacturers.
There is nothing wrong with the Supertech nitrided valves.......there is something wrong with engine owners unfairly blaming companies for failures that is not their fault....
I will say alot of "offshore" components are not made as they are claimed to be.
get a better engine builder.......everything has a failing point.....but I don't think that is the case here.......there are hundreds if not thousands of these mis assembled "built" engines on the internet...........smarten up.....do it correctly.....do it well.


Modified by PocketRockets Racing at 4:52 PM 2/13/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>
I'm not sure I would call Head Games a "voodoo engine builder"

 

I never qouted any particular engine builder!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PocketRockets Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I never qouted any particular engine builder! </TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by PocketRockets Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I wouldn't blame this engine failure posted above on the valve manufacturer. this seems like is another voodoo engine builder, throw parts in and hope it works....scarey ****. </TD></TR></TABLE>
sorry my mistake

 

I don't know if you want to consider who I'm about to talk about , a champion or not? I heard that Headway Performance had some involvement in the development of the cylinder head from Justin Humphrey, together with Chris Nedemiere and Supertech valves.

Justin Humphrey has the fastest lexus and he won NHRA & NOPI , both championships. he ran 715 et & 196 miles per hour. Now you can make your own jujgement as to wether this is a champion or not. He has had zero failure since he chose to use supertech.

In regards to the quality of the Supertech valve.Let's see how we can evaluate this.
After talking with headway I learned some things, that made me choose supertech valves. i learned that the quality control of the machining and the consistancy from one valve to another are really close to each other. Not like other valves their conistancy is not as close.

another thing is the great improvement in airflow I obtained just by using the right valve. According to Headway & Supertech they develope the valve for the head to achieve maximum performance they use wet flow bench technology to view flow fuel patterns to the head of the valve.

Manufacturers are not perfect some things can be over looked when it comes to quality control.Spending some time in the Headway shop while my heads were being assembled , I noticed that for my b-18 honda, that only has 16 springs & 16 valves. Choosing to go with supertech, Headway ordered me 25 springs & chose 16 out of the 25. He measured each spring carefully & showed me the very small difference in pound from one spring to another. This was compared to other japanese manufacteres samples and i was impressed, he demopnstrated to me how off they were.

Another comment about the keepers. I read about the problems with the ferrea keepers in comparison with the factory. He has used both and has not known failure in either one. My honda application runs 150 lbs at the seat and 475lbs over the nose, that is at 550 lift @ 10,000 rpm. My engine makes 795 hp at 9800 rpm. I run 32lbs of boost , and 1600 degree farenhight exauhst. I have 75 passes & i run in the street every other weekend.I have zero failure. i learned from all this. the supertech valves are really good. But you should choose well who is installing your valves more than the valve itself.

if you need any help i highly reccommend ramon at headway performance i think he is prety good at what he does.

347-739-7164
http://www.headwayperformance.com

 

someone told me that Ti. Retainors are actualy weaker than OEM's.

any take on this?

 

Your Text »
Just to clarify on what you just said..Justin went that 7.15 on a head that Titan did for Scranton or there car because he had to borrow the head in a pinch at Pomona is remember correctly, there was a Ferrea valvetrain in it at that time..the car was in the .20's and maybe went an .18 on a head HeadGames did for him 3 years ago also with the Ferrea stuff and was in the .60's and .70's head when the Headway head was on it..and that was only for Etown if I am not mistaken.

I have never had any experience with the SuperTech valvetrain so there fore have no opinion either way, I only know what I have heard and try not to base an opinion with out having a failure of my own to speak of. I know there is a ton of people running there stuff in street cars though,and some race cars that are flying with no problems.

The failure that I posted was in regards to Andrea's comment on using the stock keeper, I know her comments where in retrospect to something that I taught Jeff and Andrea about the stock keeper deal because they have seen these failures on the dyno that they own (Evans-tuning.com) and came to me for an answer to solve this issue.. Evan's tunes 90% of the heavy hitting Honda's with big boost and , and when my man sees a failure, he didn't imagine it..it was absolutely a valve that pulled through the retainer, I assure you Frank..This is not my first rodeo, I don't own Johnnies feed and Speed, I own HeadGames..and we are some smart, bad mother ******* at this shop, I am smart enough to realize where a failure takes place and figure out a solution...
You take a stamped steal piece that is obviously not a precision made versus the aftermarket piece that is just nice with clean edges and made from a stronger material and put that in your beautifully machined Ti retainer...one just makes me feel more comfortable using in my head packages.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JDMs1eeper &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">someone told me that Ti. Retainors are actualy weaker than OEM's.

any take on this? </TD></TR></TABLE>

?

 

Well owning a head shop for 6 years and doing work for Dave during this time also I have never seen/had a valve related issue w/a Ferrea valve,as for some of the very few cases in which I installed other companies parts I can't say the same thing.Here is a pic of a valve that destroyed a newly ported B16 head for a Hot Rod customer,I just did the head and the motor never made it off the dyno before the valve broke and trashed the head and new turbo also.



The valve job was perfect and not the problem the valve didn't stick in the guide and the cylinder didn't get lean,from my interpretation of the breakage the valve cracked or had a void in the center of the valve head that broke open after it was running and the heat from the cylinder torched the valve and melted the interior of the valve to the point it was unsupported and the edge finally gave way and went out the exhaust and took out the turbo w/it.This is just my opinion of course and I have no way of testing this valve to see if I am correct but that's how I see it.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RAYBECK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Justin Humphrey has the fastest lexus and he won NHRA & NOPI , both championships. he ran 715 et & 196 miles per hour. Now you can make your own jujgement as to wether this is a champion or not. He has had zero failure since he chose to use supertech.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thats great but I seriously doubt he's using off the shelf Supertech parts like the rest of us use.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by HEAD &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your Text »
Just to clarify on what you just said..Justin went that 7.15 on a head that Titan did for Scranton or there car because he had to borrow the head in a pinch at Pomona is remember correctly, there was a Ferrea valvetrain in it at that time..the car was in the .20's and maybe went an .18 on a head HeadGames did for him 3 years ago also with the Ferrea stuff and was in the .60's and .70's head when the Headway head was on it..and that was only for Etown if I am not mistaken.

I have never had any experience with the SuperTech valvetrain so there fore have no opinion either way, I only know what I have heard and try not to base an opinion with out having a failure of my own to speak of. I know there is a ton of people running there stuff in street cars though,and some race cars that are flying with no problems.

The failure that I posted was in regards to Andrea's comment on using the stock keeper, I know her comments where in retrospect to something that I taught Jeff and Andrea about the stock keeper deal because they have seen these failures on the dyno that they own (Evans-tuning.com) and came to me for an answer to solve this issue.. Evan's tunes 90% of the heavy hitting Honda's with big boost and , and when my man sees a failure, he didn't imagine it..it was absolutely a valve that pulled through the retainer, I assure you Frank..This is not my first rodeo, I don't own Johnnies feed and Speed, I own HeadGames..and we are some smart, bad mother ******* at this shop, I am smart enough to realize where a failure takes place and figure out a solution...
You take a stamped steal piece that is obviously not a precision made versus the aftermarket piece that is just nice with clean edges and made from a stronger material and put that in your beautifully machined Ti retainer...one just makes me feel more comfortable using in my head packages. </TD></TR></TABLE>

I have no problem with ya now or ever.
I have used Ferrea and Crower billet steel and billet titanium valve locks with no issue's....that's all.
I have never claimed the factory pressed steel lock is stronger than the billet locks, someone else did that, not me.

getting to the root cause of failures is not an easy thing.....all I am saying is sometimes, the obvious is not necessarily the root cause of a failure.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 97turbols &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I'm not sure I would call Head Games a "voodoo engine builder" </TD></TR></TABLE>

I never said headgames is a voodoo engine builder. If it came across that way, that is not what I meant......I am talking about the picture of the chamber which "Head" posted....I am also talking about the 100's of blown engines on HT.....who built that engine anyways Head? Its obvious Headgames are smart, he does not rely on the factory stamped steel valve lock.....good!


Modified by PocketRockets Racing at 11:36 PM 2/14/2006

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Fkned &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

The valve job was perfect and not the problem the valve didn't stick in the guide and the cylinder didn't get lean,from my interpretation of the breakage the valve cracked or had a void in the center of the valve head that broke open after it was running and the heat from the cylinder torched the valve and melted the interior of the valve to the point it was unsupported and the edge finally gave way and went out the exhaust and took out the turbo w/it.This is just my opinion of course and I have no way of testing this valve to see if I am correct but that's how I see it.</TD></TR></TABLE>

you might be right.....sometimes its very difficult to find the root cause of a failure.
even NASA has a difficult time

 

That was a backup head from JJ Olson's set up when he ran Hot Rod a few years back..Sav Leone borrowed it at a race in Atco and it ran 9.30's till it failed. Rods were in good shape, the whole short block was actually not bad after this except the piston and sleeve in that one cylinder..when Sav was running full time in Hot Rod I was sponcering him and we went through 4 heads before I figured out what the hell was going on and why the valve was dropping like that. Zeke at Ferrea gave me a set of keepers and retainers to try and instantly the heads were never an issue again. And I have NEVER had an issue with any head that has come through the shop since regarding that issue. Manley makes them too and I use there keeper when ever I use the crower stuff too.

Since that point on I have never even given a chance of stuff that doesn't run a aftermarket lock.

Frank, I am sorry that I come across as thinking you had a problem with me. I didn't think you did. I knew what happened in the pic, I didn't just find the pic, I took it. If a rod had let go, that pic wouldn't have even been on here, and wouldn't have blamed it on the lock, but looking at the other side of the head(I should have taken a pic of that too) you could see the valves at different heights beyond the retainer. Your comment was taken by me as maybe I missed something or jumping to conclusions, after seeing a few, and they all had similar symptoms and when we changed the part in question and the problem went away, that tells me we solved a problem and not overlooked one.

 

yeah, Zeke's alright, he has dealt with me.
The billet steel locks seem to work fine.
I have no issue's with ya.

 

Oh and I know this is off subject but frank.. I want to see a pic of the turbo swift, that just sounds crazy

 

turbo swift?
I never turbo'd a swift.
I have owned a swift.....I had Isky makes a set of cams for one, that was 1991 or 1992.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Muckman &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Thats great but I seriously doubt he's using off the shelf Supertech parts like the rest of us use.</TD></TR></TABLE>SuperTech is not the kind of company that would make a special part available only to one or two racers. If Humphrey is running SuperTech parts (and I have no knowledge if he is or not), I am sure that the same part is available to everyone.

 

And if I might quote earl here for a sec..you are so right Earl about Willie from SuperTech's customer service, although we have never done business with him, he is always on point when there is something to be said, needed info, or getting back to you in a timely matter. It is something very rare, that I have actually found in very few valve manufactures...I won't name one company but I would rather widdle valves with a swiss army knife than deal with the fustration of dealing with them, to SuperTech and Willie on that point.

 

Those are Off the Shelf valves. We make the best for our racers and is the same stuff anybody can buy. Why make them differently ?. Anybody can get them from a Dealer, same day delivery. Stainless Steel intake, Inconel Exhaust

 

There are many Ti alloys. Some are weaker, some have about the same strenght but have lower surface hardness and can wear faster, specially if they don't have a good fitness with the spring.

 

Well.....I think that you may need to take another 6 years of learning and research before you do this kind of postings that only puts in evidence you lack of knowledge and inexperience.
This is the kind of responses that irresponsible professionals give to the customers to express: “I am sorry, it is not my fault, the head was perfect but the valves were baaaad...”

So you say that the valve had a void in it???? Do you think that valves are cast ?? Do you have any idea how valves are made?

Let me help you out a little here:
From that photo it is very clear that the valves were burnt (and curiously it is an exhaust valve too and not an intake.....). Do you know how this can happen? Here are the most common reasons:
a) lean gas mixture
b) Insufficient cooling of the head
c) Incorrect valve lash.
d) Detonation
e) Bad valve job for a Turbo application (insufficient contact area for cooling)
f) Bad valve job (again): valve not seating concentric on the seat and not seating correctly.
g) Incorrect valve material selection for the application (probably should have chosen Inconel valve)

These are the reasons. Choose one, but the valve was not the problem, so you know.

I am sure you have a lot of interest in helping people too, but don’t expose yourself in this way without a more solid foundation of your opinions. It makes you look bad.

We normally don’t like to respond through this forums and we rarely check it out, so if somebody has any concerns they can contact us at tech@supertechperformance.com and we will do our best to respond with technical objective responses as much as we can.

 

Ohhh boy Dave. Did you have to go through 4 heads to learn this ??
But from this it seems that you still didn’t figure out what really happened, Isn’t it ?? You just changed parts and magic acted ??

Let me help you out here a little also: There are two reasons this can happen:
a) Springs were too soft for that application, valves were floating and when that happens, the keepers can separate and clamp back in the wrong position.
b) The combination of keeper and retainer you were using didn’t have the correct matching angles, so the keeper “clamping” forces were incorrectly applied. In other words, they may have been pulling the valve from the keeper groove. As you can understand the groove is the weakest part of the valve, so it is VERY important that the keepers excercise a good clamping force BELOW the keeper groove, which mostly acts as a “locator” for the keeper.

If you ever have a problem, feel free to contact me. We are engineers and love all the technical stuff and we can help you out in finding the reasons of your problems, so you will be able to be more technical and avoid saying that the engine will do “boom...”

As mentioned before, try to avoid this kind of public postings that make you look not that smart. Just give me a call even if you are not using our products.
Call your supplier and then call us also for technical problems. Believe me.....you will learn a lot more and faster in this way and you will look even smarter than you think you are.

We love “smart” competition because it pushes us to be better every day. But we hate to see the competitors in such low key level of competition in which the lie about their products and competitors products because is the only way they find in their lack of intelligence.

Our e-mail is tech@supertechperformance.com

Feel free to consult us before getting in trouble.......................I think I told you this before..............................

Let’s go to work and forget about all this.....

 

And this is why I only sell SuperTech valves. I get expert help when ever I need it.

 

***** I'm glad you came on to defend your product,however I am disappointed in how you brush aside my honest opinion so easily as if I had no clue at this head thingy.
Lets talk about your points:
a)lean condition-I did not tune the motor but was told and already stated that the cylinder was not lean.
b) Insufficient cooling of the head-head does not look to have gotten to hot to me no warping or seats moved.
c) Incorrect valve lash.-I'm assuming you mean the valve could have been kept open by the lash when the motor warmed or got hot,not to my knowledge the motor was never down on power and neither the rockers,cam,or valve show any odd signs of wear.
d) Detonation-no signs of detonation in chamber or on plugs.
e) Bad valve job for a Turbo application (insufficient contact area for cooling)-We'll talk about this down aliitle bit.
f) Bad valve job (again): valve not seating concentric on the seat and not seating correctly.Same as above,look down.
g) Incorrect valve material selection for the application (probably should have chosen Inconel valve)-Ferrea's comp plus isn't inconel as far as I know,I'm not sure though,and it lives at those levels.

Now you probably have no clue who this is I keep a low profile but I have done portwork/valve jobs for some of the fastest imports in the country in the last 6 years and before then I worked for a domestic shop that did Busch,Pro Stock,Craftsman Truck,All Pro,Comp,etc...Don't assume and by the way insult me by thinking I don't know how to do a valve job.

Now lets get to talking about this valve job-it pinned the needle on my vaccum gague when it went out,and I was told there were no issues when the motor was leaked down after break in.After the motor blew I did a vaccum test on the valves when he brought it back to see if it could be fixed.Every port pinned the gague,even the one that the broken valve was in after I cleaned it up with some scotch brite and put a new valve in,and the valve looks to still be straight with the rolling on the table test.There's the answer for concentricity and sealing.

As for whether or not the valve job was correct for turbo applications,all I can say is the same variant of exhaust valve job has been put on heads for Ara Arslanian,JJ Olsen,Sean Glazier,Sav Leone,Luis Corojo,and John Ferguson either thru my shop or(mostly )Head Games over the years and they seem to have done ok with them.Maybe this is luck but the names above show it's got to be really really good luck huh?

Do I know how valves are made- to some extent I'm sure nowhere near as much as someone like yourself,but I know they are forged.But does this alone make them impervious to voids or defects?I don't know.Thats why I stated it was my opinion and I had no way of testing.But to me as I said earlier it looks as if the valve was melted thru the stem/head center.Consider the fact it also melted the guide and broke into the water jacket right beside the guide where the valve sits in the guide when the valve is closed.It was basically a straight line from the center of the stem to the hole in the port.Now if it didn't have a hot jet of exhaust blowing thru the center of the valve,as I believe,how did the hole get to that spot in the port?If the valve job was bad or the valve was bent(which they weren't)the gases entering the port would have been from the sides and needed to make a path that compares to the shot that killed Kennedy to get to the same spot and I think would have left some damage to the seat,but nope.The head was perfect besides the hole in the water jacket and guide damage.

In the years I've spent in racing shops and ran mine I have never even seen another valve failure from an aftermarket valve from anything other then it hitting a piston or running no lash caps on ti valves.I'm sure you as a rep from a valve manufacturer that sells hundreds of thousands to millions of valves a year you have seen many more such cases thru breakage or R&D,but this is how I see it.I didn't want to get into an argument w/you thats why I didn't name the valve company,but I've explained my thoughts on what happened.I would appreciate it if you can tell me how and where I misjudged the situation for future reference sir, it's the only way I'll learn .

BTW:If and I say if all the reasons you stated above were good and not the cause for the valve's failure would you in any way say the valve could have been responsible?You say this to me -This is the kind of responses that irresponsible professionals give to the customers to express: “I am sorry, it is not my fault, the head was perfect but the valves were baaaad...”- But that's all I'm seeming to get from you also in reverse.