New to FI
09-07-2004, 03:03 AM
#1
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
New to FI
hello to all, i own a 1990 Civic STD, i have swapped a B16A in, added ITR cams, intake exhaust, and a FPR hack.......i was going for 13.6 all motor...but i suddenly got back into wanting a turbo...i have searched and i cannot come up with a good setup that i could run about 6-7 PSI on my stock engine, i am going to convert to OBD-1 so i can use an EMS, but i need some suggestions on what i should do for a turbo..i am looking to pull about 240whp from my engine on low boost and a lot of tuning...i am a computer wiz and until my cursed laptop died, i was actually going to be doing some tuning with a wideband myself......but i dont know what to do now.....help me please, i am very indecisive and if anything looks fishy, i abort the mission..this is motor #5, i wanna make good power and be reliable... 
I can do anything with some instruction and research
I am thinking of using a T25 or 16G undecided
i need suggestions on a intercooler, BOV, wastegate, MAP sensor(stock honda can read up to 11PSI will I be okay at 7PSI?)what should i do for fuel management, I am thinking of raping a DSM for the complete turbo setup and taloring it to my needs, i am a DIY person...and so far, the only thing that has made me blow 4 engines is.....150,XXX miles on em..and a heavy foot....
ohh yeah....i am on a budget
I can do anything with some instruction and research
I am thinking of using a T25 or 16G undecided
i need suggestions on a intercooler, BOV, wastegate, MAP sensor(stock honda can read up to 11PSI will I be okay at 7PSI?)what should i do for fuel management, I am thinking of raping a DSM for the complete turbo setup and taloring it to my needs, i am a DIY person...and so far, the only thing that has made me blow 4 engines is.....150,XXX miles on em..and a heavy foot....
ohh yeah....i am on a budget
09-07-2004, 04:02 AM
#2
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Re: New to FI (daidilus)
A straight T3 with a .48 exhaust seems right up your alley. You could also go bigger with a .63 exhaust housing, but I think the .48 would accomplish your power goal while maintaining nice spool up
09-07-2004, 04:35 AM
#3
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Re: New to FI (Boltz)
Budget turbo...
Johnny racecar 6" FMIC
Lots of companys sell t3/t4's you can find them for 450 to 800....
Tial wastegates can be had all day for 210 to 220.....
Those are the main parts.. The rest is you can find yourself.
Johnny racecar 6" FMIC
Lots of companys sell t3/t4's you can find them for 450 to 800....
Tial wastegates can be had all day for 210 to 220.....
Those are the main parts.. The rest is you can find yourself.
09-07-2004, 05:00 AM
#4
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: New to FI (Ckjeepin)
i kind of want to go with an internal wastegate..and i can use the BOV that was left over from the EVO i put a HKS SSQ on...there are soo many parts that i can get cheap because i work at 5th gear motorsports once in a while..i want to have the least amount of parts...i can get all the parts at cost or less...but what i am worried about is fuel and spark management....we have worked on cars that where stock turbo...but we have not done and turbo conversions..well accept for the B20A5 in the lude...but 4 years later..it is still not done 
....i am not sure what i want to do yet..this is my DD, and i dont want to do something that will keep me from getting
to work the next day....i can do all the mechanical stuff in a couple hours....what i
to know:
your full setup
output
problems that you encountered
what are your experiences with using aluminized charge pipes from autozone exhaust sections, and using silicone elbows. how can i set my hoses to pop off if my boost creeps and my wastegate or BOV fail. how do you get your setups closest to stoich, what plugs you run, what wires, what ignition is going to work for my setup, how long can i expect the B16 to last....what pistons and rods do you use.....would using a thicker headgasket to lower compression work, what cam gears do you suggest....do ITR cams have to much overlap, will the cams gears be enough to dial out the overlap w/o the pistons hitting the valves...what oil weight do you use. do you use a turbo timer? i have more questions than a jealous houswife
....i am not sure what i want to do yet..this is my DD, and i dont want to do something that will keep me from getting to work the next day....i can do all the mechanical stuff in a couple hours....what i
to know:
your full setup
output
problems that you encountered
what are your experiences with using aluminized charge pipes from autozone exhaust sections, and using silicone elbows. how can i set my hoses to pop off if my boost creeps and my wastegate or BOV fail. how do you get your setups closest to stoich, what plugs you run, what wires, what ignition is going to work for my setup, how long can i expect the B16 to last....what pistons and rods do you use.....would using a thicker headgasket to lower compression work, what cam gears do you suggest....do ITR cams have to much overlap, will the cams gears be enough to dial out the overlap w/o the pistons hitting the valves...what oil weight do you use. do you use a turbo timer? i have more questions than a jealous houswife
09-07-2004, 05:30 AM
#5
Re: New to FI (daidilus)
Dude, the chances of getting this done on a DD without any downtime are very slim. I'm sure with enough planning you can get this done over a long weekend though, m/b start on friday and hopefully wrap up on sunday with everything in and running.
In terms of wastegate, you can always weld a pipe back into the exhaust to have it become more or less internal i guess. I've seen that done before.
If you say you getting everything at cost, you can look into a greddy kit. they're internally wastegated and fitment is excellent. No need to cut the block and everything fits perfect.
Not to knock on you or anything, but if it took you guys 4 years to turbo a prelude, you are obviously still learning as are many of us here on ht. it might be a good idea to go with a kit that is relatively painless to install. Or you can try to employ the services of a HT member that is well versed in the art of custom turbo installation.
I think you are on the right track in terms of turbo selection for your power target. the proliferation of the all popular t3/t4 here on ht makes me think if we all really need that big a turbo for our applications. the smaller turbos have great and fast spoolup but tend to lose some wind up top. the bigger turbos have awesome power up top but feel lacking to me in terms of spoolup as mine does not begin to build boost untill at least 4000 rpm.
spark and fuel can be cheap if you go with DSM 450cc injectors and a uberdata/crome chip. it's the cheapest option, as you can get both for less than $100 if someone is willing to chip your ecu and burn you a basemap.
Given that you work at a shop and probably have acces to lots of tools and welding, I think you have the opportunity to go custom turbo for a cheap price. you can just buy a turbo, manifold, intercooler and go at it with piping and a welder to save some serious $$. just be sure to make an accurate assesment of how hard you want to make this for yourself.
Have fun and good luck
In terms of wastegate, you can always weld a pipe back into the exhaust to have it become more or less internal i guess. I've seen that done before.
If you say you getting everything at cost, you can look into a greddy kit. they're internally wastegated and fitment is excellent. No need to cut the block and everything fits perfect.
Not to knock on you or anything, but if it took you guys 4 years to turbo a prelude, you are obviously still learning as are many of us here on ht. it might be a good idea to go with a kit that is relatively painless to install. Or you can try to employ the services of a HT member that is well versed in the art of custom turbo installation.
I think you are on the right track in terms of turbo selection for your power target. the proliferation of the all popular t3/t4 here on ht makes me think if we all really need that big a turbo for our applications. the smaller turbos have great and fast spoolup but tend to lose some wind up top. the bigger turbos have awesome power up top but feel lacking to me in terms of spoolup as mine does not begin to build boost untill at least 4000 rpm.
spark and fuel can be cheap if you go with DSM 450cc injectors and a uberdata/crome chip. it's the cheapest option, as you can get both for less than $100 if someone is willing to chip your ecu and burn you a basemap.
Given that you work at a shop and probably have acces to lots of tools and welding, I think you have the opportunity to go custom turbo for a cheap price. you can just buy a turbo, manifold, intercooler and go at it with piping and a welder to save some serious $$. just be sure to make an accurate assesment of how hard you want to make this for yourself.
Have fun and good luck
09-07-2004, 07:08 AM
#6
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
thanx for the input...you are giving me what i want......and the 4year turbo = started with POS B20A5, and the guy is sinking 10G into that motor, but has not paid for it..so it just sits at the machine shop awaiting the money......4 year later..go figure..and as far as the installation and stuff.....i can do a motor swap with only hand tools and no engine jack, in less than 15 hours with the wiring..so turbo installation will probably take me 2 days....i like to draw up plans, make a mockup, and then do an install. i can probably make a custom setup that will work...but i want input from the experienced people.....all motor, and FI are 2 totally different things
09-07-2004, 08:39 AM
#7
Re: (daidilus)
HAHA that must suck to put 10 g into a b20a5. i sure hope the dude comes back and pays for it.
hmm if you can do an engine swap like that than i think you should have some decent mechanical skills to do a turbo kit or custom.
The next question to ask yourself is whether you are going for future upgradeability or just one shot and call it done. that would dictate in large what parts you will get for your car. but i'd stick with a smaller turbo for a b16, just to get going faster.
there is a good thread here i've seen about a 1.2mm cometic gasket and its uses, etc. I think the lesson was that you should not go with a head gasket that thick. Cometic at a near stock size is usually recommended. I myself use mobil 1 synthetic 10w30 for my drag III kit on a 95 gsr motor. I don't use a turbo timer but I do let the car idle and cool off after a long drive or hot run for about 2-3 min. a turbo timer just let's you walk away from your car while it cools down. I saved the $100 or so it would've costed me and spent it somewhere else like buying ht guys like cinq food for burning and chipping my ecu.
as far as how long it would last, it really depends on your driving, maintenance, and engine condition. mine is daily driven but due to the large turbo, i usually drive out of boost. i can cruise at 80mph at 4000 rpm without boost. oil change every 5000 miles and just checking everythin once in awhile.
one problem i ran into was the dsm injectors coming loose and putting me into safe mode or worse in 3 cylinder mode. it was sad to let that punk in a porsche boxster blow me by because i was limping on 3 cylinders. make sure you secure them tight if you go that route.
another was using the safc hack. it's a good temporary fix if you have one already, but i would not recommend goign that route. horrible gas mileage and bucking. crome chip with basemap works beatifully for now. stilll a little hard to start but all the other problems are gone. smooth like butter.
also make sure you upgrade your cooling system too. you're adding a lot more heat with a turbo. you dont' want that to cause engine lockup in a worst case scenario. my radiator was old and would overheat, then my fan fuse went south. i would get a new rad for insurance and a slim fan to clear up space and cools better too. adn with your newfound speed, you will overpower your stock brakes fast in hard driving. i think it's not just about bring a car down from speed at let's say 80 mph but it's bring that car down after it accelerated to that speed with so much more momentum.
I use iridium spark plugs but most people recommend the ngk 7 series. i use magnecor wires. as for your question regarding boost creep, i think getting a boost gauge would help you monitor that. i dunno about using autozone pipes, i'd rather to with mandrel bent pipes from a shop that offers them and then go at it with a welder if you have one and know how to.
as far as getting close to stoic, use uberdata/crome and go to a tuner. but i'm still running with a basemap for now till i make some more $$
if your goal is 250 whp i really don't think you need to get pistons and rods or even cams for that matter. my buddy hit 250 whp tuned with hondata on a gsr with a equal lenght manifold and precision turbo at only 5 psi. but his turbo was a big one tho. stock engine, untouched inside.
hmm if you can do an engine swap like that than i think you should have some decent mechanical skills to do a turbo kit or custom.
The next question to ask yourself is whether you are going for future upgradeability or just one shot and call it done. that would dictate in large what parts you will get for your car. but i'd stick with a smaller turbo for a b16, just to get going faster.
there is a good thread here i've seen about a 1.2mm cometic gasket and its uses, etc. I think the lesson was that you should not go with a head gasket that thick. Cometic at a near stock size is usually recommended. I myself use mobil 1 synthetic 10w30 for my drag III kit on a 95 gsr motor. I don't use a turbo timer but I do let the car idle and cool off after a long drive or hot run for about 2-3 min. a turbo timer just let's you walk away from your car while it cools down. I saved the $100 or so it would've costed me and spent it somewhere else like buying ht guys like cinq food for burning and chipping my ecu.
as far as how long it would last, it really depends on your driving, maintenance, and engine condition. mine is daily driven but due to the large turbo, i usually drive out of boost. i can cruise at 80mph at 4000 rpm without boost. oil change every 5000 miles and just checking everythin once in awhile.
one problem i ran into was the dsm injectors coming loose and putting me into safe mode or worse in 3 cylinder mode
. it was sad to let that punk in a porsche boxster blow me by because i was limping on 3 cylinders. make sure you secure them tight if you go that route.another was using the safc hack. it's a good temporary fix if you have one already, but i would not recommend goign that route. horrible gas mileage and bucking. crome chip with basemap works beatifully for now. stilll a little hard to start but all the other problems are gone. smooth like butter.
also make sure you upgrade your cooling system too. you're adding a lot more heat with a turbo. you dont' want that to cause engine lockup in a worst case scenario. my radiator was old and would overheat, then my fan fuse went south. i would get a new rad for insurance and a slim fan to clear up space and cools better too. adn with your newfound speed, you will overpower your stock brakes fast in hard driving. i think it's not just about bring a car down from speed at let's say 80 mph but it's bring that car down after it accelerated to that speed with so much more momentum.
I use iridium spark plugs but most people recommend the ngk 7 series. i use magnecor wires. as for your question regarding boost creep, i think getting a boost gauge would help you monitor that. i dunno about using autozone pipes, i'd rather to with mandrel bent pipes from a shop that offers them and then go at it with a welder if you have one and know how to.
as far as getting close to stoic, use uberdata/crome and go to a tuner. but i'm still running with a basemap for now till i make some more $$
if your goal is 250 whp i really don't think you need to get pistons and rods or even cams for that matter. my buddy hit 250 whp tuned with hondata on a gsr with a equal lenght manifold and precision turbo at only 5 psi. but his turbo was a big one tho. stock engine, untouched inside.
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09-07-2004, 09:18 AM
#8
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
yeah i told him there is no ******* possible was to run 15LBS on a 14.5:1 compression ratio...but he insists that it will work for him...i have a feeling that when it is finished....we will be picking up pistons and rods later....
well i am not sure about the completness of the turbo...i plan on getting a GSR bottom end later...9.6:1 will be better for a a slightly higher boost application....that may be a year or two from now..i am in no big rush..
i plan to start gathering my turbo parts now, and by january be installing them
my engine is in good condition.....and i change my oil and filter every 3000 miles, the DSM injectors, i hear you have to grind off part of the plastic and get new retainers to ensure a good fit
i will get a DA teg core for the radiator, but for some reason since i put the b16 in..the fan no longer kicks in i will check the wiring and switch...
i dont like too many hacks, i can do the rechipping myself...the guys on pgmfi.org can write me a fuel map,
i am not too worried about the brakes..i have a rear disk swap, teg prop valve...i am going to get EX hubs, and found that i can get prelude disks safely redrilled, and use accord calipers for 11" brakes, and get a teg MC.
I plan on getting the stardard boost gauge and oil pressure gauge, but i like to have more than 1 check system to prevent failure..
as far as cams..i already have ITR cams, and are making decent power...what i need to know is, should i swap the B16 cams back in or get adjustable cams gears to dial out the overlap....
well i am not sure about the completness of the turbo...i plan on getting a GSR bottom end later...9.6:1 will be better for a a slightly higher boost application....that may be a year or two from now..i am in no big rush..
i plan to start gathering my turbo parts now, and by january be installing them
my engine is in good condition.....and i change my oil and filter every 3000 miles, the DSM injectors, i hear you have to grind off part of the plastic and get new retainers to ensure a good fit
i will get a DA teg core for the radiator, but for some reason since i put the b16 in..the fan no longer kicks in
i will check the wiring and switch...i dont like too many hacks, i can do the rechipping myself...the guys on pgmfi.org can write me a fuel map,
i am not too worried about the brakes..i have a rear disk swap, teg prop valve...i am going to get EX hubs, and found that i can get prelude disks safely redrilled, and use accord calipers for 11" brakes, and get a teg MC.
I plan on getting the stardard boost gauge and oil pressure gauge, but i like to have more than 1 check system to prevent failure..
as far as cams..i already have ITR cams, and are making decent power...what i need to know is, should i swap the B16 cams back in or get adjustable cams gears to dial out the overlap....
09-07-2004, 12:34 PM
#9
Re: (daidilus)
sounds like all systems go to me. you really want to look into the fan though as you'll be heating up quick. trust me it wasn't fun to turn on the heat to cool things off in the middle of summmer before i found out that the stupid relay was the culprit.
are you putting a new radiator in? just making sure as that is one thing you don't want to skimp on. i've seen a guy fry his b series swap cuz his radiator gave up, dude was gonna cry i think.
yeah, i saw my friend do the chipping and it looked doable if you have the solder and stuff to do it. a basemap is cake once you have the parts you need. we literally made one under five minutes.
as for teh prelude dude, make sure you guys push the car outside before you let him crank it up and drive. if you're gonna be around for that one, make sure you also wear protective gear when he guns it outta the parking lot. flysing shrapnel is dangerous
are you putting a new radiator in? just making sure as that is one thing you don't want to skimp on. i've seen a guy fry his b series swap cuz his radiator gave up, dude was gonna cry i think.
yeah, i saw my friend do the chipping and it looked doable if you have the solder and stuff to do it. a basemap is cake once you have the parts you need. we literally made one under five minutes.
as for teh prelude dude, make sure you guys push the car outside before you let him crank it up and drive. if you're gonna be around for that one, make sure you also wear protective gear when he guns it outta the parking lot. flysing shrapnel is dangerous
09-07-2004, 03:02 PM
#10
Honda-Tech Member
Thread Starter
Re: (95stangkillah)
kewl kewl..well i dunno if i need to get a new radiator......the one i have is one i got in the backseat 2 years ago because the old on broke......so it is only 2 years old...and it has only gotten past the halfway mark once...i left it idling at a friends house for about 30 minutes.....i will recheck the circuit, and relays...i have never been concerned...because it has never gotten hot....if all else fails....custom rewire it all or.....just add a flip switch..
http://www.streetimports.com/p...d=360
that is the intercooler i am thinking of
http://www.streetimports.com/p...d=360
that is the intercooler i am thinking of
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