Full Race Prototype Intake Manifold
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Albany, N.Y., us
Re: (ZoRG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ZoRG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Well it's clear you never did a search on SAE.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
looks like you have never done a search on SAE , i found alot of stuff just by typing Intake manifold.
you know that they won't have one specificaly on "turbo honda intake manifold design" you have to take the test and theroy of N/A and apply it to turbo charge fundamentals. Its all in the SAE website.
http://www.sae.org/servlets/Si...PAPER
Well it's clear you never did a search on SAE.
</TD></TR></TABLE>looks like you have never done a search on SAE , i found alot of stuff just by typing Intake manifold.
you know that they won't have one specificaly on "turbo honda intake manifold design" you have to take the test and theroy of N/A and apply it to turbo charge fundamentals. Its all in the SAE website.
http://www.sae.org/servlets/Si...PAPER
Member
Joined: Dec 2003
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Re: (1.83Tc)
Indeed look at my earlier post, it doesn't have to be honda specific, but it needs to be turbo specific... Does NA inlet manifolds have anything in common with Turbo ones?
Btw the entire first page of the url you posted is absolutely useless in this scenario...
Here is something thats actually usefull for anyone concerned:
http://www.sae.org/servlets/pr...00680
Btw the entire first page of the url you posted is absolutely useless in this scenario...
Here is something thats actually usefull for anyone concerned:
http://www.sae.org/servlets/pr...00680
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Joined: May 2002
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From: SoCal, CA, USA
Re: (ZoRG)
Nice looking piece..... 
I just read thru the whole thread. Seems a lot of talk on the performance of the manifold compared to how well it will flow, with only a very small mention of port velocity. I have never found flow to be a useful tool in determining whether a intake manifold will work well or not. There is a whole combination of things that lead to a well designed intake manifold, and will depend upon the enigne combination.
In the little bit of R&D I have done, I also haven't seen a taper runner deliver any gains in power on a Honda engine yet, but more so on V8's, like an LS1.
There also hasn't been any mention of tuning frequencies of the intake manifold. We all know how important that is with a inlet tube (i.e. AEM CAI and V2). The same applies to the intake manifold. A lot of the SAE papers focus on finding the natural frequency of the whole intake track using Helmholtz equations. Any of this used in the engineering behind the manifold?
Can't wait for dyno results!
I just read thru the whole thread. Seems a lot of talk on the performance of the manifold compared to how well it will flow, with only a very small mention of port velocity. I have never found flow to be a useful tool in determining whether a intake manifold will work well or not. There is a whole combination of things that lead to a well designed intake manifold, and will depend upon the enigne combination.
In the little bit of R&D I have done, I also haven't seen a taper runner deliver any gains in power on a Honda engine yet, but more so on V8's, like an LS1.
There also hasn't been any mention of tuning frequencies of the intake manifold. We all know how important that is with a inlet tube (i.e. AEM CAI and V2). The same applies to the intake manifold. A lot of the SAE papers focus on finding the natural frequency of the whole intake track using Helmholtz equations. Any of this used in the engineering behind the manifold?
Can't wait for dyno results!
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From: SoCal, CA, USA
Re: (ZoRG)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ZoRG »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Does NA inlet manifolds have anything in common with Turbo ones?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes....since they are used on the same engine, the manifold runners are tuned to similar natural frequencies. I have seen manifolds that work well as a performance upgrade on a NA motors show similar gains on FI motors.
Yes....since they are used on the same engine, the manifold runners are tuned to similar natural frequencies. I have seen manifolds that work well as a performance upgrade on a NA motors show similar gains on FI motors.
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Joined: Dec 2003
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Re: (Marauder)
Cool!
Btw, could you elaborate on whether the gains were at the same rpm? Since speed of sound changes with pressure, I would like to know if anyone has actually checked into this and can to some degree say if a manifold tuned to 7000rpm on a NA motor then peaks at say 8000rpm @ 14psi and 9000rpm @ 30psi. That would be most helpful.
Btw, could you elaborate on whether the gains were at the same rpm? Since speed of sound changes with pressure, I would like to know if anyone has actually checked into this and can to some degree say if a manifold tuned to 7000rpm on a NA motor then peaks at say 8000rpm @ 14psi and 9000rpm @ 30psi. That would be most helpful.
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: (Marauder)
the reason the conical runners are used is to retain high port velocity. We found the ideal taper for the highest mass flow rate (as measured in m^3/min, eq of cfm) and then solved for the point at which to get maximum velocity. V8 or Inline 4, it doesnt matter, the conical runners will flow more air at very high velocities, and they will have a laminar flow at the end, that is simply the nature of the cone.
each runner is machined from a solid block of billet aluminum, and it is very expensive to manufacture runners like this, as compared to an aluminum tube (normally found on 99% of other fabricated intake manifolds). Had there been any question regarding this we would not have gone through the time, effort, and costs to manufacture these over using a tube.
Helmholtz tuning HAS BEEN TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT and we have two distinct tuning peaks. these peaks coincide with our exhaust manifolds -- matching the tuning peaks on the exhaust manifold with the tuning peaks on the intake manifold is the best way for the resonators to work. We have used all of this theory in the calculation for our manifold design. We solved for many factors from intake port inductance, to primary runner inductance, to frequency factor, and of course solved for the appropriate helmholtz tuning peaks.
each runner is machined from a solid block of billet aluminum, and it is very expensive to manufacture runners like this, as compared to an aluminum tube (normally found on 99% of other fabricated intake manifolds). Had there been any question regarding this we would not have gone through the time, effort, and costs to manufacture these over using a tube.
Helmholtz tuning HAS BEEN TAKEN INTO ACCOUNT and we have two distinct tuning peaks. these peaks coincide with our exhaust manifolds -- matching the tuning peaks on the exhaust manifold with the tuning peaks on the intake manifold is the best way for the resonators to work. We have used all of this theory in the calculation for our manifold design. We solved for many factors from intake port inductance, to primary runner inductance, to frequency factor, and of course solved for the appropriate helmholtz tuning peaks.
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From: SoCal, CA, USA
Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the reason the conical runners are used is to retain high port velocity. We found the ideal taper for the highest mass flow rate (as measured in m^3/min, eq of cfm) and then solved for the point at which to get maximum velocity. V8 or Inline 4, it doesnt matter, the conical runners will flow more air at very high velocities,.</TD></TR></TABLE>
You targeting maximum velocity or optimum average velocity? Obviously, too high of velocity would mean you'd probably choke the overall flow. And since the velocity in the runners is constantly changing based on valve opening and sonic pulse waves inside of the manifold.
With helmholtz, you use a two-degree-of-freedom model on a 4 cylinder engine, which is basicly a two mass and two spring vibrations equation. You will get two tuning frequencies from this.
I have also wondered if it was possible to know whether flow inside a engine can ever be laminar with all the dynamics involved. Wish I could go back to school and just spend years in research!
You targeting maximum velocity or optimum average velocity? Obviously, too high of velocity would mean you'd probably choke the overall flow. And since the velocity in the runners is constantly changing based on valve opening and sonic pulse waves inside of the manifold.
With helmholtz, you use a two-degree-of-freedom model on a 4 cylinder engine, which is basicly a two mass and two spring vibrations equation. You will get two tuning frequencies from this.
I have also wondered if it was possible to know whether flow inside a engine can ever be laminar with all the dynamics involved. Wish I could go back to school and just spend years in research!
Thread Starter
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: (Marauder)
of course we solved for choke flow it would be silly to do all this work without considering the speed of sound in air.
the CFD results (of course it is ONLY an approximation) were really interesting, yes it is not a steady state laminiar flow, but it is really interesting nonethless...
it would be silly to do all this work without considering the speed of sound in air.the CFD results (of course it is ONLY an approximation) were really interesting, yes it is not a steady state laminiar flow, but it is really interesting nonethless...
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From: SoCal, CA, USA
Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">of course we solved for choke flow </TD></TR></TABLE>
From all the work I have done, I have learned that the average velocity in the runner should be much smaller than the speed of sound to get optimum cylinder filling. Which is also what makes it difficult to design an all around intake manifold, being that one that works well as a street/strip will restrict performance for a pure strip application and a strip application manifold only hurts the performance of a street/strip.
From all the work I have done, I have learned that the average velocity in the runner should be much smaller than the speed of sound to get optimum cylinder filling. Which is also what makes it difficult to design an all around intake manifold, being that one that works well as a street/strip will restrict performance for a pure strip application and a strip application manifold only hurts the performance of a street/strip.
Thread Starter
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: (Marauder)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Marauder »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
From all the work I have done, I have learned that the average velocity in the runner should be much smaller than the speed of sound to get optimum cylinder filling. Which is also what makes it difficult to design an all around intake manifold, being that one that works well as a street/strip will restrict performance for a pure strip application and a strip application manifold only hurts the performance of a street/strip.</TD></TR></TABLE>
what work have you done thus far? Looking at the results from a prototype manifold and the results from an AIR manifold, i would definately disagree with you.
From all the work I have done, I have learned that the average velocity in the runner should be much smaller than the speed of sound to get optimum cylinder filling. Which is also what makes it difficult to design an all around intake manifold, being that one that works well as a street/strip will restrict performance for a pure strip application and a strip application manifold only hurts the performance of a street/strip.</TD></TR></TABLE>
what work have you done thus far? Looking at the results from a prototype manifold and the results from an AIR manifold, i would definately disagree with you.
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From: FULL RACE, AZ, USA
Re: (DIRep972)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by DIRep972 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How are these manifolds coming geoff? You guys gonna have one at Sema?</TD></TR></TABLE>
we are hoping so, we have had nothing but problems with the CNC head flanges, we are just waiting on them to get everything sorted out. Its a pretty complex 3d shape.
we are hoping so, we have had nothing but problems with the CNC head flanges, we are just waiting on them to get everything sorted out. Its a pretty complex 3d shape.
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From: Greensboro, NC, U.S.A.
Re: Full Race Prototype Intake Manifold (Full-Race Geoff)
That is A1 craftsmanship/fabrication and i cant wait to see the numbers of this manifold against the typical square mani's
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From: SoCal, CA, USA
Re: (Full-Race Geoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
what work have you done thus far? </TD></TR></TABLE>
As far as intake manifolds.
Honda, Chevy, Ford, Olds, Chrysler........
what work have you done thus far? </TD></TR></TABLE>
As far as intake manifolds.
Honda, Chevy, Ford, Olds, Chrysler........
Joined: Oct 2002
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From: Texas, USA
Re: (b_ron007)
hmm look at the Carrera GT pics. . .IMs almost looks the same. Not knocking anyone but if you were going to "copy" I would do this one
oh, and look at that equal length ex mani
**Just throwing in some info.**
oh, and look at that equal length ex mani
**Just throwing in some info.**
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From: somewhere, nj, us
Re: Full Race Prototype Intake Manifold (Full-Race Geoff)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Full-Race Geoff »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Also, the B series manifold will fit BOTH b16/type R and b18c/GSR cylinder heads.</TD></TR></TABLE>
your saying the manifold will not fit the b18b?
please clarify for me, thanks!