Average cost of Neptune/Chrome/Uberdata........
Honestly for basic tuning the R500 is a bit much, but will work well.
I recommend the PLX M300. The display is nice and gives you the output to the ecu that you can use for datalogging.
Then you just need the harness, the ecu and the ostrich and/or burner.
Also check your private messages.
I recommend the PLX M300. The display is nice and gives you the output to the ecu that you can use for datalogging.
Then you just need the harness, the ecu and the ostrich and/or burner.
Also check your private messages.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 639
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From: CA, USA
Re: (93turbo16)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But honestly most cars can just be tuned for idle and WOT, not saying part throttle isn't important, it most certainly is, but having a good O2 and staying in O2 makes things easy for a street car on the dyno.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
obviously you havent tuned many cars. you cant rely on o2 feedback, especially with cars that have larger injectors. if you're off a few % it will never correct it
But honestly most cars can just be tuned for idle and WOT, not saying part throttle isn't important, it most certainly is, but having a good O2 and staying in O2 makes things easy for a street car on the dyno.
</TD></TR></TABLE>obviously you havent tuned many cars. you cant rely on o2 feedback, especially with cars that have larger injectors. if you're off a few % it will never correct it
Re: (D0GMAN)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by D0GMAN »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
obviously you havent tuned many cars. you cant rely on o2 feedback, especially with cars that have larger injectors. if you're off a few % it will never correct it
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have tuned cars, mostly with 450 to 650cc injectors. you can rely on O2 feedback with a proper working O2 sensor. And then again, I do tune with an ostrich and in open loop.
I guess my statement, like you are saying is more in tune with lower cc injectors. But I haven't really had a car that during part throttle couldn't be corrected by the O2 sensor, no matter the size of injectors; so far that is.. using a max of 880cc injectors on a few cars. Of course this is after proper scaling and a little bit of tuning to get things where they need to be, but by no means perfection in open loop.
I have tuned enough to see just about every kind of setup.
obviously you havent tuned many cars. you cant rely on o2 feedback, especially with cars that have larger injectors. if you're off a few % it will never correct it
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I have tuned cars, mostly with 450 to 650cc injectors. you can rely on O2 feedback with a proper working O2 sensor. And then again, I do tune with an ostrich and in open loop.
I guess my statement, like you are saying is more in tune with lower cc injectors. But I haven't really had a car that during part throttle couldn't be corrected by the O2 sensor, no matter the size of injectors; so far that is.. using a max of 880cc injectors on a few cars. Of course this is after proper scaling and a little bit of tuning to get things where they need to be, but by no means perfection in open loop.
I have tuned enough to see just about every kind of setup.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: The Swamp, FL
Re: (93turbo16)
actually dogman is correct.
trying to rely on o2 feedback is a bad idea.
the delta change in regards to pulsewidth vs % difference with larger injectors is a bit different than stock injectors. the stock o2 sensor is only accurate between 14-15:1. It does not take much delta error to step outside that boundary. the o2 feedback would never be able to compensate.
trying to rely on o2 feedback is a bad idea.
the delta change in regards to pulsewidth vs % difference with larger injectors is a bit different than stock injectors. the stock o2 sensor is only accurate between 14-15:1. It does not take much delta error to step outside that boundary. the o2 feedback would never be able to compensate.
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Catching Rivers on Fire TWICE
Re: (Mase)
^^^exactly, the stock ecu can only compensate so much, and when using a larger injector there is a change in its ability to compensate.
Modified by Soccerking3000 at 4:51 PM 11/28/2005
Modified by Soccerking3000 at 4:51 PM 11/28/2005
Thread Starter
Man U FTW
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 11,973
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From: Phoenix, AZ
so what does all this mean?? The wideband isnt' a good idea or what??
If i get the R500, would i be able to ditch some of the parts like the Ostrich or the chip burner or any of that stuff.....
Im new to all this stuff...i'm sure you can't tell right???
If i get the R500, would i be able to ditch some of the parts like the Ostrich or the chip burner or any of that stuff.....
Im new to all this stuff...i'm sure you can't tell right???
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Catching Rivers on Fire TWICE
Re: (Schister66)
the r500 is just fancy lol, you dont need something so substantial, a m-300 works great for me never had a problem. As for the ostrich and such i would defiantly get one it makes things much easier. An ostrich and chip burner are essentially the same thing, but the ostrich is always connected, its kinda hard to explain, its a chip emulator and does just that emulates a chip lol. if you want to go into it further you can pm i have done all of this with my car and such, i'd be mroe than willing to help
Re: (Mase)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">actually dogman is correct.
trying to rely on o2 feedback is a bad idea.
the delta change in regards to pulsewidth vs % difference with larger injectors is a bit different than stock injectors. the stock o2 sensor is only accurate between 14-15:1. It does not take much delta error to step outside that boundary. the o2 feedback would never be able to compensate.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I do agree on relying on O2 feedback is a bad idea on very large injectors. But it can be done with medium sized injector cars. The stock o2 sensor can still make corrections and it will make them in the right direction. I understand the pulse wideth and percentage will be different just because of larger injectors, but the A/F will be the same percentage change regardless. It will get it close. I have done many, many cars this way. I have only really had one car that didn't like an O2 sensor, if you plugged it in, it would make everything go lean. So that is something else that is wrong.
But back on topic here.
I would get a PLX M300, the features of the R500 can be had through datalogging through the ecu. It is a nice unit for those that can't datalog like honda users can.
trying to rely on o2 feedback is a bad idea.
the delta change in regards to pulsewidth vs % difference with larger injectors is a bit different than stock injectors. the stock o2 sensor is only accurate between 14-15:1. It does not take much delta error to step outside that boundary. the o2 feedback would never be able to compensate.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I do agree on relying on O2 feedback is a bad idea on very large injectors. But it can be done with medium sized injector cars. The stock o2 sensor can still make corrections and it will make them in the right direction. I understand the pulse wideth and percentage will be different just because of larger injectors, but the A/F will be the same percentage change regardless. It will get it close. I have done many, many cars this way. I have only really had one car that didn't like an O2 sensor, if you plugged it in, it would make everything go lean. So that is something else that is wrong.
But back on topic here.
I would get a PLX M300, the features of the R500 can be had through datalogging through the ecu. It is a nice unit for those that can't datalog like honda users can.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: The Swamp, FL
Re: (93turbo16)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I do agree on relying on O2 feedback is a bad idea on very large injectors. But it can be done with medium sized injector cars. The stock o2 sensor can still make corrections and it will make them in the right direction. I understand the pulse wideth and percentage will be different just because of larger injectors, but the A/F will be the same percentage change regardless. It will get it close. I have done many, many cars this way. I have only really had one car that didn't like an O2 sensor, if you plugged it in, it would make everything go lean. So that is something else that is wrong.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
regardless of injector size, relying on the o2 feedback for correction is a poor idea.
the tune will always be off and the computer will 'try' to fix it. i have never seen feedback that works as good as it being correctly tuned. not even close.
its a bandaid fix.
I do agree on relying on O2 feedback is a bad idea on very large injectors. But it can be done with medium sized injector cars. The stock o2 sensor can still make corrections and it will make them in the right direction. I understand the pulse wideth and percentage will be different just because of larger injectors, but the A/F will be the same percentage change regardless. It will get it close. I have done many, many cars this way. I have only really had one car that didn't like an O2 sensor, if you plugged it in, it would make everything go lean. So that is something else that is wrong.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
regardless of injector size, relying on the o2 feedback for correction is a poor idea.
the tune will always be off and the computer will 'try' to fix it. i have never seen feedback that works as good as it being correctly tuned. not even close.
its a bandaid fix.
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Joined: Oct 2003
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From: Catching Rivers on Fire TWICE
Re: (Mase)
i have a question though, i use crome and it can switch between open and closed loop depending on load. As soon as positive boost pressure is seen by the map sensor it will go into closed loop and only read from the tuned boost map. Otherwise during normal driving it will read from the stock map and adjust accordingly untill boost is seen again.
Is this a bad way to go about things?
Is this a bad way to go about things?
Re: (Mase)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
regardless of injector size, relying on the o2 feedback for correction is a poor idea.
the tune will always be off and the computer will 'try' to fix it. i have never seen feedback that works as good as it being correctly tuned. not even close.
its a bandaid fix. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think it is a bandaid fix. It works just fine for street cars that are use to normal O2 feedback opperation.
Also it definitley makes tuning a lot harder and such tuning the whole map in open loop, when in most cases it isn't neccesary. Atleast with good O2 feedback, it keeps the car driveable all year round.
regardless of injector size, relying on the o2 feedback for correction is a poor idea.
the tune will always be off and the computer will 'try' to fix it. i have never seen feedback that works as good as it being correctly tuned. not even close.
its a bandaid fix. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't think it is a bandaid fix. It works just fine for street cars that are use to normal O2 feedback opperation.
Also it definitley makes tuning a lot harder and such tuning the whole map in open loop, when in most cases it isn't neccesary. Atleast with good O2 feedback, it keeps the car driveable all year round.
Re: (Soccerking3000)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Soccerking3000 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i have a question though, i use crome and it can switch between open and closed loop depending on load. As soon as positive boost pressure is seen by the map sensor it will go into closed loop and only read from the tuned boost map. Otherwise during normal driving it will read from the stock map and adjust accordingly untill boost is seen again.
Is this a bad way to go about things?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would say if you tune your own car, and have a wideband handy all the time to just tune it in open loop all the time. You can get better gas mileage and better "feel" during boost transitions.
Is this a bad way to go about things?</TD></TR></TABLE>
I would say if you tune your own car, and have a wideband handy all the time to just tune it in open loop all the time. You can get better gas mileage and better "feel" during boost transitions.
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Joined: Dec 2001
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From: The Swamp, FL
Re: (93turbo16)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 93turbo16 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I don't think it is a bandaid fix. It works just fine for street cars that are use to normal O2 feedback opperation.
Also it definitley makes tuning a lot harder and such tuning the whole map in open loop, when in most cases it isn't neccesary. Atleast with good O2 feedback, it keeps the car driveable all year round.</TD></TR></TABLE>
of course its necessary. its the difference between correctly and fully tuning an engine management system and half *** tuning.
the only time the feedback may begin to work is if you are holding a steady rpm for elongated periods of time. that would give the ecu enough time to finally zero in on the target voltage for the o2.
for instance.
lets say the whole fuel map is tuned to 13.5:1 afr but your target afr is 14.5. thats roughly 7% off. lets say you are slowly accelerating, there is no way in hell that computer is going to be able to read the 13.5:1 for one on the stock narrowband o2. all it would know is that it is roughly richer than 14:1. so it would want to start to take out fuel, but wait, since your slowly accelerating, you've already moved to the next cell, so its gotta redo the calculating.. it doesnt have enough time to change the pulse width.
i dont know the programming algorithm, but it would certainly have your target afr, your actual, thus your target error, the max and min % change, multiplier etc. too much calculation to make accurate corrections very quickly...especially with a narrowband sensor.
I don't think it is a bandaid fix. It works just fine for street cars that are use to normal O2 feedback opperation.
Also it definitley makes tuning a lot harder and such tuning the whole map in open loop, when in most cases it isn't neccesary. Atleast with good O2 feedback, it keeps the car driveable all year round.</TD></TR></TABLE>
of course its necessary. its the difference between correctly and fully tuning an engine management system and half *** tuning.
the only time the feedback may begin to work is if you are holding a steady rpm for elongated periods of time. that would give the ecu enough time to finally zero in on the target voltage for the o2.
for instance.
lets say the whole fuel map is tuned to 13.5:1 afr but your target afr is 14.5. thats roughly 7% off. lets say you are slowly accelerating, there is no way in hell that computer is going to be able to read the 13.5:1 for one on the stock narrowband o2. all it would know is that it is roughly richer than 14:1. so it would want to start to take out fuel, but wait, since your slowly accelerating, you've already moved to the next cell, so its gotta redo the calculating.. it doesnt have enough time to change the pulse width.
i dont know the programming algorithm, but it would certainly have your target afr, your actual, thus your target error, the max and min % change, multiplier etc. too much calculation to make accurate corrections very quickly...especially with a narrowband sensor.
Re: (Mase)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Mase »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
of course its necessary. its the difference between correctly and fully tuning an engine management system and half *** tuning.
lets say the whole fuel map is tuned to 13.5:1 afr but your target afr is 14.5. thats roughly 7% off. lets say you are slowly accelerating, there is no way in hell that computer is going to be able to read the 13.5:1 for one on the stock narrowband o2. all it would know is that it is roughly richer than 14:1. so it would want to start to take out fuel, but wait, since your slowly accelerating, you've already moved to the next cell, so its gotta redo the calculating.. it doesnt have enough time to change the pulse width.
i dont know the programming algorithm, but it would certainly have your target afr, your actual, thus your target error, the max and min % change, multiplier etc. too much calculation to make accurate corrections very quickly...especially with a narrowband sensor. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I understand we are on the same page no doubt. But if you think about it most street cars hold a steady RPM most of the time, highway driving from place to place. At least that is the case in the areas around me. Keeping the O2 sensor on is not a bad idea, but obviously not optimal in tuning preference, but you know it will keep you around your target. I know you have probably watched and noticed a the difference with or without an O2 on an untuned map.
So really, IMO there isn't any harm done by keeping the O2 sensor plugged in, just to keep the car driveable year round.. because you can't nail down ECT and IAT correction just by seeing the car one time, you can get them close.
of course its necessary. its the difference between correctly and fully tuning an engine management system and half *** tuning.
lets say the whole fuel map is tuned to 13.5:1 afr but your target afr is 14.5. thats roughly 7% off. lets say you are slowly accelerating, there is no way in hell that computer is going to be able to read the 13.5:1 for one on the stock narrowband o2. all it would know is that it is roughly richer than 14:1. so it would want to start to take out fuel, but wait, since your slowly accelerating, you've already moved to the next cell, so its gotta redo the calculating.. it doesnt have enough time to change the pulse width.
i dont know the programming algorithm, but it would certainly have your target afr, your actual, thus your target error, the max and min % change, multiplier etc. too much calculation to make accurate corrections very quickly...especially with a narrowband sensor. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I understand we are on the same page no doubt. But if you think about it most street cars hold a steady RPM most of the time, highway driving from place to place. At least that is the case in the areas around me. Keeping the O2 sensor on is not a bad idea, but obviously not optimal in tuning preference, but you know it will keep you around your target. I know you have probably watched and noticed a the difference with or without an O2 on an untuned map.
So really, IMO there isn't any harm done by keeping the O2 sensor plugged in, just to keep the car driveable year round.. because you can't nail down ECT and IAT correction just by seeing the car one time, you can get them close.
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Joined: Jan 2004
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From: Mississauga, ON, CANADA
Re: (Mase)
tune with a widband, make your afrs nice with the golden table, (or autotune with crome)
then when all ur nice and happy fuel values are set,
u can turn the stock narrowband o2 back on and plug in ur stock o2, and as mase is saying it really wont do anything, and it will only go into closed loop when the "same rpms + load for a long time" conditions are met.
kinda makes sense
then when all ur nice and happy fuel values are set,
u can turn the stock narrowband o2 back on and plug in ur stock o2, and as mase is saying it really wont do anything, and it will only go into closed loop when the "same rpms + load for a long time" conditions are met.
kinda makes sense
Re: (nickromeo)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by nickromeo »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
u can turn the stock narrowband o2 back on and plug in ur stock o2, and as mase is saying it really wont do anything, and it will only go into closed loop when the "same rpms + load for a long time" conditions are met.
kinda makes sense</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree with your first part, because that is what I do. But with closed loop on, it does adjust during acceleration, light throttle accel to be more specific, it isn't just steady state, even though that is what it is best at doing.
u can turn the stock narrowband o2 back on and plug in ur stock o2, and as mase is saying it really wont do anything, and it will only go into closed loop when the "same rpms + load for a long time" conditions are met.
kinda makes sense</TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree with your first part, because that is what I do. But with closed loop on, it does adjust during acceleration, light throttle accel to be more specific, it isn't just steady state, even though that is what it is best at doing.
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