Alcohol Injection...
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Re: (kpt4321)
3 questions:
1) To verify, is there no benefit of AI over WI? If not, why would some people choose to go AI? Is mixing them only to keep the water from freezing? I'm still a little unclear on this point
2) I understand that these methods (AI and WI) lower the intake temps, allowing you to boost more without the same fear ot detonation... but is there any way to tell the magnitude of its effectiveness? I know that it will all be dependent on your specific setup in quesion, but is there a way you can tell that x more HP can be made, or x more CFM's can be comressed into your motor (i.e., depending on your turbo, how much more can you boost), or something like that?
3) Will injecting water or alcohol cause your target a/f ratio to change? (because even though the IAT's are dropping, there is a small amount of alcohol and/or water in the combustion chamber)
1) To verify, is there no benefit of AI over WI? If not, why would some people choose to go AI? Is mixing them only to keep the water from freezing? I'm still a little unclear on this point
2) I understand that these methods (AI and WI) lower the intake temps, allowing you to boost more without the same fear ot detonation... but is there any way to tell the magnitude of its effectiveness? I know that it will all be dependent on your specific setup in quesion, but is there a way you can tell that x more HP can be made, or x more CFM's can be comressed into your motor (i.e., depending on your turbo, how much more can you boost), or something like that?
3) Will injecting water or alcohol cause your target a/f ratio to change? (because even though the IAT's are dropping, there is a small amount of alcohol and/or water in the combustion chamber)
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Joined: May 2002
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From: Roanoke Rapids, NC
Re: Alcohol Injection...
I can see that there is a lot of knowledge on this subject here, so I expect that I should get a straight answer without a run around or an eventual debate.
I was first introduced to alcohol injection just over a year ago when I went with my father to purchase his Grand National. The seller had another turbo Buick and while we looked that over he pointed out the alcohol injection system to me. He explained to me that since he lived so far out in the country sometimes he couldn't get 93 octane at the gas stations and the alcohol raised the octane when he got on the gas. It was a very simple system with a small resevoir with a pump and rpm switch and a hose that injected the alcohol just upstream of the throttle body. He kept the resevoir filled with rubbing alcohol.
Ever since seeing that I have been pondering using a simple system like that on an NA engine with rubbing alcohol to increase the octane rating and cool the air intake temperature.
Seems to me it would be a bit beneficial to the engine, and I'm sure I would brag about the results based on my seat of the pants dyno. Is there any reason I'm right or wrong?
I was first introduced to alcohol injection just over a year ago when I went with my father to purchase his Grand National. The seller had another turbo Buick and while we looked that over he pointed out the alcohol injection system to me. He explained to me that since he lived so far out in the country sometimes he couldn't get 93 octane at the gas stations and the alcohol raised the octane when he got on the gas. It was a very simple system with a small resevoir with a pump and rpm switch and a hose that injected the alcohol just upstream of the throttle body. He kept the resevoir filled with rubbing alcohol.
Ever since seeing that I have been pondering using a simple system like that on an NA engine with rubbing alcohol to increase the octane rating and cool the air intake temperature.
Seems to me it would be a bit beneficial to the engine, and I'm sure I would brag about the results based on my seat of the pants dyno. Is there any reason I'm right or wrong?
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,273
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From: Manchester, NH, USA
Unless you are injecting a rather large amount of alcohol, then it will not make a very big difference in terms of octane.
If you are injecting a lot of alcohol, it'll probably end up costing more than just buying better gas anyway.
WATER HAS A HIGHER SPECIFIC HEAT. THAT IS WHY IT IS BETTER. I am sorry, but I have already said this exact same thing 3 times. This is getting absurd.
There is no calculation you can make, because the efect is not simply lower intake temperatures. You could easily calculate the temperature drop and the associated density gain, but that is only a part of the story. The water also plays a big part in controlling the combustion after the piston reaches TDC, and this effect is a lot harder to measure.
It can effect the target A/F ratio, but this is a complex subject. Oftentimes, we are forced to run rich in order to cool the intake charge and control the combustion, especially on race gas. The WI takes the place of some of this, hence allowing you to tune for a leaner mixture.
However, WI will also change the A/F ratio is measured with a wideband O2, due to different vapor pressures of the water and the normal combustion ingredients, and also due to a change in the by-products of combustion.
Thus, tuning WI strictly using A/F ratio is difficult. Knock and timing advance are also very important, possibly moreso than A/F ratio.
If you are injecting a lot of alcohol, it'll probably end up costing more than just buying better gas anyway.
WATER HAS A HIGHER SPECIFIC HEAT. THAT IS WHY IT IS BETTER. I am sorry, but I have already said this exact same thing 3 times. This is getting absurd.
There is no calculation you can make, because the efect is not simply lower intake temperatures. You could easily calculate the temperature drop and the associated density gain, but that is only a part of the story. The water also plays a big part in controlling the combustion after the piston reaches TDC, and this effect is a lot harder to measure.
It can effect the target A/F ratio, but this is a complex subject. Oftentimes, we are forced to run rich in order to cool the intake charge and control the combustion, especially on race gas. The WI takes the place of some of this, hence allowing you to tune for a leaner mixture.
However, WI will also change the A/F ratio is measured with a wideband O2, due to different vapor pressures of the water and the normal combustion ingredients, and also due to a change in the by-products of combustion.
Thus, tuning WI strictly using A/F ratio is difficult. Knock and timing advance are also very important, possibly moreso than A/F ratio.
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Joined: May 2002
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From: Roanoke Rapids, NC
Re: (kpt4321)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kpt4321 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">WATER HAS A HIGHER SPECIFIC HEAT. THAT IS WHY IT IS BETTER. I am sorry, but I have already said this exact same thing 3 times. This is getting absurd.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I read the entire thread and took my time reading it. I know what you said 3 times, I only asked because it had not specifically been mantioned on an NA setup. I know it was mentioned, but more emphasis has been put on boosted cars, and rightly so given the name of the forum. In the past I had studied and read that water injection cannot be used on NA engines because the only thing that makes it possible for an engine to compress the water (since water does not compress as air does) in the air flow is that fact that the turbo has already compressed the air, thus making more room for the water vapor.
So water injection is ok to use on NA engines? I've never found an example of this, so I'd be worried to try it myself. Maybe I'll just work on my CO2 system.
I read the entire thread and took my time reading it. I know what you said 3 times, I only asked because it had not specifically been mantioned on an NA setup. I know it was mentioned, but more emphasis has been put on boosted cars, and rightly so given the name of the forum. In the past I had studied and read that water injection cannot be used on NA engines because the only thing that makes it possible for an engine to compress the water (since water does not compress as air does) in the air flow is that fact that the turbo has already compressed the air, thus making more room for the water vapor.
So water injection is ok to use on NA engines? I've never found an example of this, so I'd be worried to try it myself. Maybe I'll just work on my CO2 system.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 1,906
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From: NC, USA
Re: (muskrat)
I just got my water/alky injection setup running on my car, here is a link to some good info. This is a homebrew setup, that cost me about $150.
http://www.carolinahondas.com/...=2922
This has a part/price break down with some very good links to other peoples websites, and some helpful info.
http://www.carolinahondas.com/...=2922
This has a part/price break down with some very good links to other peoples websites, and some helpful info.
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,273
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From: Manchester, NH, USA
It would not work very well on a NA setup, but it could still be effective. The water not only cools the charge air (which it would not do with a NA car) but it als controls combustion once the piston reaches the end of the compression cycle and the beginning of the cimbustion cycle.
You would want to inject a good bit less water than a turbo guy would though, I think.
Are you sure you really need WI though?
You would want to inject a good bit less water than a turbo guy would though, I think.
Are you sure you really need WI though?
B*a*n*n*e*d
Joined: Aug 2001
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From: Todays date is, UK
Re: Alcohol Injection... (boosted hybrid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When i said abrasive I meant that the nature of oil and alcohol together tends to dry out the metal surface. The abrasive aspect only comes from the fact that oil is repelled from a metal to metal surface and wearing is started. This is the same situation with the pumps used in the alcohol injection kits, they are specifically made to have alcohol run through them since the internal parts dont contain the need to have lubrication. As far as engines are concerned please show me that alcohol engines can last a long time, alcohol degrades any rubber/oil surface it comes in contact with over a period of time. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I'll have to go grab the digi cam and take pics of the methonal injected S/c dragster in the garage....that big chief motor has been in the car for two seasons now, and has yet to show anything bad in the leak down or compression tests done after every event. We're always sure to spray alittle WD40 into the hat, and into the plug holes, keep the oil filter clean etc.
I'll have to go grab the digi cam and take pics of the methonal injected S/c dragster in the garage....that big chief motor has been in the car for two seasons now, and has yet to show anything bad in the leak down or compression tests done after every event. We're always sure to spray alittle WD40 into the hat, and into the plug holes, keep the oil filter clean etc.
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Re: (filthy scarecrow)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by filthy scarecrow »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">hate to break this to you as well, but fuel injectors will not work with any sort of water mixture. they will rust solid in a matter of days. we've experimented with this on a number of other boards and we've gotten the same results each time..
as far as the washer pump, if you use 2 of them inline, you can get about 40psi out of them- which aactually is enough to provide decent atomization through an injector even with the boost pressure differential. problem is that a washer pump might not be compatible with hydrocarbon based fluids. my guess is that it would dissolve the impellers...
as far as the toluene/xylene idea, xylene has an octane of 117 so that would increse your effective octane the most.. i had though of using a dual chamber fuel rail, or joining 2 rails on the intake manifold with a valve between them thta dumps directly into the injectors. the valve would be controlled by a servo that uses the MAP signal as a reference. as boost pressure/MAP voltage goes up, the valve opens more giving you a higher concentration of whatever yuo're using as octane booster. i figured out that a 37% mix of toluene/gas is effectively 100 octane.
obviously, this would require a seperate fuel system, but that's no big deal. pumps can be had on ebay brand new for under $20.
the question is, though, do you need it? with proper AF control you most likely dont' need that sort of setup. i'm planning to use a water injection system for safety reasons as well, but the more complexity you add to the system, the bigger the chance for catastrophic failure.
i think water injection is probably the most effecitve anti-knock band-aid out there for the money.. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree with this, why would you go through all of this? What are you trying to do? If you are trying to lower cyclinder temps why not justy go water injection. My friend uses the water inj. on his 7 sec because it is NECESSARY.
as far as the washer pump, if you use 2 of them inline, you can get about 40psi out of them- which aactually is enough to provide decent atomization through an injector even with the boost pressure differential. problem is that a washer pump might not be compatible with hydrocarbon based fluids. my guess is that it would dissolve the impellers...
as far as the toluene/xylene idea, xylene has an octane of 117 so that would increse your effective octane the most.. i had though of using a dual chamber fuel rail, or joining 2 rails on the intake manifold with a valve between them thta dumps directly into the injectors. the valve would be controlled by a servo that uses the MAP signal as a reference. as boost pressure/MAP voltage goes up, the valve opens more giving you a higher concentration of whatever yuo're using as octane booster. i figured out that a 37% mix of toluene/gas is effectively 100 octane.
obviously, this would require a seperate fuel system, but that's no big deal. pumps can be had on ebay brand new for under $20.
the question is, though, do you need it? with proper AF control you most likely dont' need that sort of setup. i'm planning to use a water injection system for safety reasons as well, but the more complexity you add to the system, the bigger the chance for catastrophic failure.
i think water injection is probably the most effecitve anti-knock band-aid out there for the money.. </TD></TR></TABLE>
I agree with this, why would you go through all of this? What are you trying to do? If you are trying to lower cyclinder temps why not justy go water injection. My friend uses the water inj. on his 7 sec because it is NECESSARY.
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 28
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From: Victoria, MN, USA
Re: Alcohol Injection... (boosted hybrid)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boosted hybrid »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As far as engines are concerned please show me that alcohol engines can last a long time, alcohol degrades any rubber/oil surface it comes in contact with over a period of time. </TD></TR></TABLE>
RC airplane and car engines run on a mix of methanol and nitromethane, and last a long time.
RC airplane and car engines run on a mix of methanol and nitromethane, and last a long time.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,822
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Re: (kpt4321)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kpt4321 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Unless you are injecting a rather large amount of alcohol, then it will not make a very big difference in terms of octane.
If you are injecting a lot of alcohol, it'll probably end up costing more than just buying better gas anyway.
WATER HAS A HIGHER SPECIFIC HEAT. THAT IS WHY IT IS BETTER. I am sorry, but I have already said this exact same thing 3 times. This is getting absurd.
There is no calculation you can make, because the efect is not simply lower intake temperatures. You could easily calculate the temperature drop and the associated density gain, but that is only a part of the story. The water also plays a big part in controlling the combustion after the piston reaches TDC, and this effect is a lot harder to measure.
It can effect the target A/F ratio, but this is a complex subject. Oftentimes, we are forced to run rich in order to cool the intake charge and control the combustion, especially on race gas. The WI takes the place of some of this, hence allowing you to tune for a leaner mixture.
However, WI will also change the A/F ratio is measured with a wideband O2, due to different vapor pressures of the water and the normal combustion ingredients, and also due to a change in the by-products of combustion.
Thus, tuning WI strictly using A/F ratio is difficult. Knock and timing advance are also very important, possibly moreso than A/F ratio.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, does a WB become completely useless when using WI, or can you still use it to some extent? I.E., is there a way to tell how far off hte reading is, and therefore still use the WB to tune? I do all my own street WB tuning, seeing as dyno time is a long drive an quite expensive from where I'm at (not to mention finding a tuner that is competent enough in the systems I'm using)
If you are injecting a lot of alcohol, it'll probably end up costing more than just buying better gas anyway.
WATER HAS A HIGHER SPECIFIC HEAT. THAT IS WHY IT IS BETTER. I am sorry, but I have already said this exact same thing 3 times. This is getting absurd.
There is no calculation you can make, because the efect is not simply lower intake temperatures. You could easily calculate the temperature drop and the associated density gain, but that is only a part of the story. The water also plays a big part in controlling the combustion after the piston reaches TDC, and this effect is a lot harder to measure.
It can effect the target A/F ratio, but this is a complex subject. Oftentimes, we are forced to run rich in order to cool the intake charge and control the combustion, especially on race gas. The WI takes the place of some of this, hence allowing you to tune for a leaner mixture.
However, WI will also change the A/F ratio is measured with a wideband O2, due to different vapor pressures of the water and the normal combustion ingredients, and also due to a change in the by-products of combustion.
Thus, tuning WI strictly using A/F ratio is difficult. Knock and timing advance are also very important, possibly moreso than A/F ratio.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, does a WB become completely useless when using WI, or can you still use it to some extent? I.E., is there a way to tell how far off hte reading is, and therefore still use the WB to tune? I do all my own street WB tuning, seeing as dyno time is a long drive an quite expensive from where I'm at (not to mention finding a tuner that is competent enough in the systems I'm using)
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,822
Likes: 1
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Re: (servion)
Doing research, I found this:
from: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi....html
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Please don't misconstrue what I've said above; your FJO interface box &
NTK sensor you have are fully capable of measuring actual real AFRs even
with your fueling changes; you just need to know how to correct the
numbers from 'indicated' to 'actual'. Now that's real whirled, idnit?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, anyone know where to get/hjow to calculate these new voltage->afr mappings? I.E., old AFR reading -> new AFR reading (with water/alch injection)?
from: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi....html
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Please don't misconstrue what I've said above; your FJO interface box &
NTK sensor you have are fully capable of measuring actual real AFRs even
with your fueling changes; you just need to know how to correct the
numbers from 'indicated' to 'actual'. Now that's real whirled, idnit?
</TD></TR></TABLE>
So, anyone know where to get/hjow to calculate these new voltage->afr mappings? I.E., old AFR reading -> new AFR reading (with water/alch injection)?
Junior Member
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 296
Likes: 0
From: Bay Area, Ca
Re: (MiraiZ)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MiraiZ »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
exactly my point...someone mention that luucas can flow water regularly without corrosion...</TD></TR></TABLE>
quoted from J. Davis
"Yep. They are Lucas units, I believe, which have stainless internals and won't rust shut after a period of time like most injectors."
http://www.carolinahondas.com/...er=3
exactly my point...someone mention that luucas can flow water regularly without corrosion...</TD></TR></TABLE>
quoted from J. Davis
"Yep. They are Lucas units, I believe, which have stainless internals and won't rust shut after a period of time like most injectors."
http://www.carolinahondas.com/...er=3
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,822
Likes: 1
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
Re: (servion)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by servion »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Doing research, I found this:
from: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi....html
Please don't misconstrue what I've said above; your FJO interface box &
NTK sensor you have are fully capable of measuring actual real AFRs even
with your fueling changes; you just need to know how to correct the
numbers from 'indicated' to 'actual'. Now that's real whirled, idnit?
So, anyone know where to get/hjow to calculate these new voltage->afr mappings? I.E., old AFR reading -> new AFR reading (with water/alch injection)?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Any thoughts?
from: http://www.diy-efi.org/diy_efi....html
Please don't misconstrue what I've said above; your FJO interface box &
NTK sensor you have are fully capable of measuring actual real AFRs even
with your fueling changes; you just need to know how to correct the
numbers from 'indicated' to 'actual'. Now that's real whirled, idnit?
So, anyone know where to get/hjow to calculate these new voltage->afr mappings? I.E., old AFR reading -> new AFR reading (with water/alch injection)?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Any thoughts?
Joined: Mar 2003
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
From: minneapolis, MN, murka
i have some thoughts.
kpt4321: water does not have 4x the specific heat of alky. the specific heat of water is 1cal/g*C. the specific heat of alky is between 0.75 and 0.8cal/g*c. it only has 20-25% more thermal mass. a lot of people like to mix alky in because water is not a fuel, and takes up volume in the combustion chamber. they would rather have a fuel doing the intercooling (and raising octane a bit) than just water. and the change in octane is actually significant. [WHY IT WORKS]
93 octane gas + 110 octane alcohol.
say we're injecting 1000cc fuel. we would add roughly 250cc alcohol as our intercooler. this results in a gross volume of 1250cc fuel.
[PROOF]
we use the R+M/2 method to figure the increase in octane, and we get (1000*93)+(250*110)/1250= 96.4 net octane. this IS significant. i also apologise about my first post. i in no way intended to suggest that toluene/xylene were meant to be a form of intercooling.. only knock supression.
you can, however use windshield washer pumps. [HERE'S WHY IT WILL WORK]as long as the differential pressure is still above the operating pressure of the nozzle (mcmaster has 20psi nozzles in quite a few flow rates), it will properly atomize the water prior to injection. it has been done with a fair amount of success by ed key on his merkur ([HERE'S PROOF] http://home.ccci.org/Key_Infor...n.htm). his system defeated the necessity of the pumps having to build huge amounts of pressure to overcome boost by pressurizing the reservoir with boost pressure. the inlet water pressure on the pumps is already equal to boost pressure. the pumps are providing gage pressure over boost pressure. ed is a mechanical engineer by trade, perhaps you would like to take the discussion up with him? the point is, people are looking for a means to build an inexpensive WI system, and it can be done. a little resourcefulness goes a long way.
muskrat: WI on an NA motor wouldn't really help performance wise, but it would help as far as fuel mileage. not only would the water allow leaner mixtures without knock, but more timing.
Giblet Plus!: the reason RC engines last without being rebuilt despite the harshness of methanol is because the lubrication for those engines is part of the fuel. the oil in the fuel stays on engine internals and shields it from the fuel's corrosive properties.
graphite accord: no, methanol motors don't have to be rebuilt all the time, but they do have to be pickled (run through with gasoline or some sort of lubrication) if they're going to sit for a while to prevent corrosion. ever been to a CART race? when they run the engines in the pits after a session, they're running gas through them.
edited for those who can't see the blatently obvious. the whole point of going off other peoples' experience is so you don't have to make the same mistakes they did...
Modified by filthy scarecrow at 6:52 AM 8/18/2003
kpt4321: water does not have 4x the specific heat of alky. the specific heat of water is 1cal/g*C. the specific heat of alky is between 0.75 and 0.8cal/g*c. it only has 20-25% more thermal mass. a lot of people like to mix alky in because water is not a fuel, and takes up volume in the combustion chamber. they would rather have a fuel doing the intercooling (and raising octane a bit) than just water. and the change in octane is actually significant. [WHY IT WORKS]
93 octane gas + 110 octane alcohol.
say we're injecting 1000cc fuel. we would add roughly 250cc alcohol as our intercooler. this results in a gross volume of 1250cc fuel.
[PROOF]
we use the R+M/2 method to figure the increase in octane, and we get (1000*93)+(250*110)/1250= 96.4 net octane. this IS significant. i also apologise about my first post. i in no way intended to suggest that toluene/xylene were meant to be a form of intercooling.. only knock supression.
you can, however use windshield washer pumps. [HERE'S WHY IT WILL WORK]as long as the differential pressure is still above the operating pressure of the nozzle (mcmaster has 20psi nozzles in quite a few flow rates), it will properly atomize the water prior to injection. it has been done with a fair amount of success by ed key on his merkur ([HERE'S PROOF] http://home.ccci.org/Key_Infor...n.htm). his system defeated the necessity of the pumps having to build huge amounts of pressure to overcome boost by pressurizing the reservoir with boost pressure. the inlet water pressure on the pumps is already equal to boost pressure. the pumps are providing gage pressure over boost pressure. ed is a mechanical engineer by trade, perhaps you would like to take the discussion up with him? the point is, people are looking for a means to build an inexpensive WI system, and it can be done. a little resourcefulness goes a long way.
muskrat: WI on an NA motor wouldn't really help performance wise, but it would help as far as fuel mileage. not only would the water allow leaner mixtures without knock, but more timing.
Giblet Plus!: the reason RC engines last without being rebuilt despite the harshness of methanol is because the lubrication for those engines is part of the fuel. the oil in the fuel stays on engine internals and shields it from the fuel's corrosive properties.
graphite accord: no, methanol motors don't have to be rebuilt all the time, but they do have to be pickled (run through with gasoline or some sort of lubrication) if they're going to sit for a while to prevent corrosion. ever been to a CART race? when they run the engines in the pits after a session, they're running gas through them.
edited for those who can't see the blatently obvious. the whole point of going off other peoples' experience is so you don't have to make the same mistakes they did...
Modified by filthy scarecrow at 6:52 AM 8/18/2003
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 2,178
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From: Portland, OR
Re: (filthy scarecrow)
I dunno, maybe I'm just an *******, but everyone on here is full of **** (or if they aren't, they could be), including myself. We are all talking about what will and will not work when only a few people on here have even tried A set-up, let alone a number of the variations that are being discussed.
Where are the facts? I haven't seen someone say "this won't work, here's exactly why and here's proof". I think that if you are going to draw a line in the sand and say; "this is what will and will not work" you should have some pretty graphs to prove it
In the near future, I'm going to fart around with this and try a washer pump PRIOR to the turbo, washer pump AFTER the turbo, in the charge pipe. And possibly use my stock pump and injector(s) for water and/or alcohol. I will then datalog my IAT, EGT and maybe knock (if I have my ecu actually looking at that...). OR, since I have alot on my plate right now and am only mildly interested in this, since I'm running only 10psi, someone else could do it and be really cool and scientific about it?!
It just really bothers me when someone who supposedly knows (not pointing fingers, not even really talking about this thread) shares some hazy or flat-out wrong information that is taken at gospel. I mean, how many people come on here and ask "will NAWZZZ or turbo blow my motor" because their jerk-face friend told them it would? Too many.
Where are the facts? I haven't seen someone say "this won't work, here's exactly why and here's proof". I think that if you are going to draw a line in the sand and say; "this is what will and will not work" you should have some pretty graphs to prove it
In the near future, I'm going to fart around with this and try a washer pump PRIOR to the turbo, washer pump AFTER the turbo, in the charge pipe. And possibly use my stock pump and injector(s) for water and/or alcohol. I will then datalog my IAT, EGT and maybe knock (if I have my ecu actually looking at that...). OR, since I have alot on my plate right now and am only mildly interested in this, since I'm running only 10psi, someone else could do it and be really cool and scientific about it?!
It just really bothers me when someone who supposedly knows (not pointing fingers, not even really talking about this thread) shares some hazy or flat-out wrong information that is taken at gospel. I mean, how many people come on here and ask "will NAWZZZ or turbo blow my motor" because their jerk-face friend told them it would? Too many.
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