Well actually drifting is the fastest way around a corner. Its meant to be used when your racing into corners at like 80 mph or even faster not 15mph like in SCCA or AutoX. And people who can drift like this are some of the best racers in the world.

 

The math equation dictating speed given a corner radius, and maximum roadholding capability doesn't agree with a huge slip angle. At a large slip angle you've relinquished a portion of your grip, and are therefore not able to maintain a radius through the corner. That would mean you're either going off the track with an increased corner radius, or you are slowing down to maintain the current radius. What gives?

 

That sounds like that newfangled "overly fast-in, overly slow-out" style of driving to me. I don't know nor have ever seen any of the worlds fastest drivers doing this. And I watch Speedvision, so I would know.

 

Again it totally depends on your definition of drifting. By my and a few other's definition, this is true. Honda318dx put it right. All FWD racecars have an optimal setup if you can do this in every turn ideally. Turn 12 at road atlanta is a good example of this (as is turn 1 if not better). It's also around 105 mph at the apex. It's a little slower than that in the wet, but twice as intense (but not always twice the fun!).

Since to a certain small degree the rear of the car is "drifting" it is rotating better throughout the turn. The same car with more understeering dialed in may not be able to take it flat out like a properly setup car could, simply because you do need a slight degree of "drift" in the rear tires to help out in turning the car. There's just so much that the front tires can do in a fwd car and so the rear tires need to help out and do some of the turning per say. Of the driver I see on a regular basis watching Tom Fowler take turn 1 at road atlanta (in any car) illustrates this perfectly. Randy Pobst who drove in an ITB Accord was another awesome sight to see this in the works, lap after lap after lap at the arrc. I could have stood there all day watching him go though 1!


[Modified by Hracer, 3:40 AM 12/4/2001]

 

I might agree that drifting is the fastest way around a corner as long as you don't consider the straight away that follows it. It might produce the least amount of time actually _in_ the corner, but your exit speeds are going to be lower.

I watch the WRC a lot, but I know little of the race tech involved and how much the cars change from event to event. I always had assumed that the cars were engineered for drifting due to most of their events being low-traction applications. As a result, on the few tarmac sections, it is not feasible to change car setup and driving style sufficiently to go from a drift mode to a grip mode (to use Gran Turismo terms).. Does anyone know with any authority on this issue? The Honda crowd doesn't seem to have much of a performance rally group, so I have low hopes of someone being able to respond on this..
As for Veil_side_'s original question about toe, unless you hit something, I would not blame your drifting episode for causing the problem.. but it probably revealed a problem you already had. As for whether an alignment will fix it, I can't say because I don't know what's wrong. It sure seems an alignment is the place to start to fix the problem.

Anyway, I have to agree with the minority viewpoint by saying I find drifting to be fun, and that I do it from time to time when finishing out an autocross run that I screwed up in the early portions. I think the car control exercise helps me when I need to catch the car if I do too much late braking, or get crossed up in a slalom, and I tell myself it may come in handy in an emergency situation on the street some day.

BUT... I also completely agree with the majority in saying that the street is _NOT_ the place to practice/learn/show off drifting. Public roads are for getting from point A to point B safely.. (but my moral high ground becomes insecure when you start talking about completely deserted large parking lots covered with snow)

 

And when was the last time Schumacher drifted his Ferrari around Monza?
Or Jeff Gordan around the Glen?

 

That's pretty funny. And also not true.

 

Actually, I'm going to have to disagree with you there, Matt...

Drifting IS the fastest way around a corner... in a dingy.

 

Drifting can be benificial in some "fast" corners leading to slower sections of the track where exit speed doesn't have to be maxamized

Turn 4 at summit?? To much exit speed and you won't make turn 5, so what do you do? Take the corner with a very fast entry (grande juavos) and scrub some speed off threw the corner (not really, but your not accellerating as hard while you are drifting), so your fast in, slower out, so you can actually stop for 5... Turn 4 is around 100mph..

[edit] I 'm refering to a 4 wheel drift..


[Modified by Honda318dx, 1:22 PM 12/4/2001]

 

If you are drifting, without purposefully inducing the drift, then you are moving as fast as your tires can carry you, and then some.. therefore, you are moving very fast. In turn 4 at SP, if you can drift, again induced only by smooth speed, then you will not only be going as fast as possible through the turn, but the drift alone will set you up perfectly on-line for turn 5. This is one of the cases where drift is better than maintaining complete traction. I would have to say that every turn or sequence of turns is different, and there are some places where drift is fastest and some where it is not... this is part of learning the fastest way around a track.

 

I think our (road racers, autocrossers, etc.) idea of a drift is very different from the drift in these drifting competitions. The drift that the last few posts describes is a 4 wheel absolutely on-the-ragged-edge of adhesion drift. The drift that I feel the original poster is talking about is general tail out jackassery.


[Modified by MaddMatt, 11:42 AM 12/4/2001]

 

Simple semantics. "Racer drift" and "ricer drift". One's for go, and the other's for... well, you know.

PS- "general tail out jackassery" will get you thrown out of VIR! I've seen it happen...

Jon

 

Well keep your eye on that one...

Will

 

I would agree that drifting means different things to different people, but where I come from when we race in the mountains drifting is the fastest possible way around a corner, considering that your entering the turn and exiting the turn at the same speed, which is the whole point of drifting. Even Evo's have to use drift to keep up with us when they race, and they have unbelievable suspension.

 

I'm still of the belief that not drifting is the faster way. If you pick your lines right, your average speed through the turn will be faster, as will the exit speed.


[Modified by YellowCorn, 4:20 PM 12/4/2001]

 

A good friend who lives in Japan sent me once pictures of these mountain "events" . It's an unbelievable car show if nothing else! Is it always done at night?


A data acquisition system is the answer to what is faster. The minimum speed, avg speed and exit speeds should be measured around the same corner in the same car. One run taking the corner sideways, the other normally. 100 bucks sideways would come out slower. Even the FIA rally guys do not slide the rear out in long sweepers on asphalt. The sliding that they do is usually done right before a turn or even carried a little into the turn just to point the car in the right direction. It takes a different kind of driving, very similar to track driving to drive the asphalt stages. That's why the you see tarmac specialists like Gilles Panitzi (sp?) beat out all the regular (keep it sideways) rally drivers most of the times on the tarmac stages.


[Modified by Hracer, 4:25 PM 12/4/2001]

 

What he said.

If this drifting style as used in the mountains of Japan was really the fastest way to drive, then as someone previously mentioned, why doesn't Shumacher implement this style immediately? Last time I checked, he did not use any form of the previously described tail-out jackassery to win consecutive world championships.

This "drifting" may look fast. It may sound fast. It damn sure is entertaining to watch and I agree that there is some skill required to do it. But if you break out the stop watches, you WILL see that it is in fact a slower way to drive. Period.

 

I don't think FIA (F1) would allow a hairpin turns (< 10M radius) with sort of elevation change (~1-2M) that the mountain roads have, on the tracks the Schumacher drives on.

The mountain carvers usually have turbo cars... turbo lag would not lend itself to powering out of a turn from a slow controlled line thru the turn. Keep the revs up… toss the rear end out… and motor on thru the turn… (at optimum power).

Will
-who thinks getting on the gas sooner = faster

 

I'll give both a try on the closest mountain road tonight... All those hills in S. Florida

~Chris, who hasn't been to any rallies or hillclimbs in this lifetime to comment any further for now


PS- this is the fastest way around a corner for ITRs around an autox course. promise! and you also need the peashooter exhaust off krshultz' MG.



[Modified by WRXRacer111, 2:27 PM 12/4/2001]

 

I know there are some on here that do the Beech Mt. hillclimb every year. That is a seriously twisty road. Perhaps Roadracer would care to comment?


[Modified by MaddMatt, 6:36 PM 12/4/2001]

 

Having the *** of the car hung out is simply NOT NOT NOT faster.
Period.
Dammit.

Having the rear of the car pitched sideways increases the slip angle of the rear tires. This means that not only are you scrubbing off speed (yes... even if you're on the gas), but if you are in a RWD car you are simply accelerating in the WRONG GODDAMED DIRECTION!!!
What is so hard to understand about this?

Yes, there is a certain amount of used slip angles at high speeds as Alex talked about above. It is being out on the hairy assed edge of adhesion. But, if you're driving correctly and youre set-up is right, the car is still pretty much pointed at the exit of the corner. Not all sideways and countersteered.

If you believe this is faster, I REALLY want to race against you. I just never want to be behind you in a turn (come to think of it, this might be useful for blocking... until you get black flagged that is).

Jackassery... I like it.

 

I have more than a few in car vids of AE86's. few are drift, most are actual competions (one is a 10car tuner battle) and through most of their turns they are drifting, but not *** hanging out drifting. if I could host a vid I'd show you all. the one the only time he turned into the turn was to aim for the apex, the rest is spent in counter steering in a 4 wheel drift. it was the fastest way, but he also used grip style in tighter turns.

 

That still would not be enough...

"hiraokadriftfun.avi" 1.7 meg.... have you seen this clip?

Will

 

see username and avatar. 4WD on tarmac, 2WD on dirt.

 

Countersteering is fun and entertaining, but it is not fast. I tend to avoid it on track.