e85
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Joined: Jan 2002
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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA
On all the cars I have tuned back to back with a gasoline versus e85, I have seen between 4-8% increases in power. Its perfrect for a decently high hp streetcar. The winter blend thing is something to keep an eye on.
I did 515whp uncorrected on one car with a walbro255 and 1000cc's (they were DONE). I got 520whp on mine with the bosch 044 and 1000cc's.
I did 515whp uncorrected on one car with a walbro255 and 1000cc's (they were DONE). I got 520whp on mine with the bosch 044 and 1000cc's.
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Elkinspark, pa, usa
Re: (servion)
A few questions...
E85 is rated at 105 octane, what is E98 rated at?
How will NHRA determine what your percentage is?
How bad does this stuff smell when it burns?
Is E85 corrosive?
Any special needs as far as seals or other materials in the fuel system or engine?
DO I need to change my oil every couple of pass's like Meth?
DO I need to worry about water getting absorbed by this fuel?
E85 is rated at 105 octane, what is E98 rated at?
How will NHRA determine what your percentage is?
How bad does this stuff smell when it burns?
Is E85 corrosive?
Any special needs as far as seals or other materials in the fuel system or engine?
DO I need to change my oil every couple of pass's like Meth?
DO I need to worry about water getting absorbed by this fuel?
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Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Zionsville, IN, U.S.A.
Re: (RacerStev)
This is all info I have found in the past, by researching
-What about oil contamination?
Modern lubricants, especially the synthetic oils are much much different than the oils used during those studies, and modern engines run at higher temperatures today which will quickly boil any traces of alcohol out of the oil.
In cold weather I run an 180 deg thermostat to assist quick warmup I have left it in during this past summer and so far the engine has no heating issues with the 180 thermostat on the E85 fuel.
-Is Ethanol less corrosive than Methanol?
Methanol is much more corrosive than ethanol. It attacks certain soft metals that are not much used in modern fuel systems. Years ago, the carburators were made of un-anodized aluminum and if methanol fuel was used, you had major problems with electrolytic corrosion between the aluminum and copper components used in the fuel system, since they were in continous contact.
That sort of corrosion only occurs when you have a current path between the dissimilar metals AND, a conductive path through the fluid in the system.
In Brazil where they have run high ethanol fuels since 1939, they found that to convert older cars designed for gasoline, long before ethanol blends were common, needed several changes to convert the cars over. This led to changes in valve materials, piston rings choices, nickle plating of the fuel tanks etc.
Modern cars in the U.S. are designed for use with ethanol up to 10% concentration in the fuel. That has led to several changes in component materials over the last 30 years that the U.S. has used ethanol enhanced fuels. All modern fuel lines and such are designed with the expectation that some ethanol will be in the fuel.
My experiment is an intentional effort to push the envelope and see what happens. Over the last 2 years I have run high ethanol fuels ( normal pump fuel here in Colorado contains up to 10% ethanol anyway) for months at a time.
At mixtures below 33% by volume of alcohol ( about 39% E-85 by volume) I had absolutely no problems of any kind. At higher mixtures > 33% alcohol, I got a nuisance CEL for too lean which could be eliminated by added gasoline to the mix or as I have recently increased the injector size. (Increasing fuel pressure would also increase the effective size of the injectors).
At mixtures near 65% in my current setup I got a nuisance CEL for the evaporative emissions system, but the car runs very well on the high alcohol blend. The only issue with near 100% E-85, is the car starts a little harder in cold weather. When it gets very cold I drop the mixture to about 80% or so to solve that by adding about 2 gallons of gasoline to the tank of E-85.
I have done no oil analysis at this point, walbro 255l/h fuel pump and 550 injectors show no signs of problems to date.
-It smells like ethanol
-Im sure its not a hard test to figure out the percentage of ethanol in gas?? But Im not sure
-What about oil contamination?
Modern lubricants, especially the synthetic oils are much much different than the oils used during those studies, and modern engines run at higher temperatures today which will quickly boil any traces of alcohol out of the oil.
In cold weather I run an 180 deg thermostat to assist quick warmup I have left it in during this past summer and so far the engine has no heating issues with the 180 thermostat on the E85 fuel.
-Is Ethanol less corrosive than Methanol?
Methanol is much more corrosive than ethanol. It attacks certain soft metals that are not much used in modern fuel systems. Years ago, the carburators were made of un-anodized aluminum and if methanol fuel was used, you had major problems with electrolytic corrosion between the aluminum and copper components used in the fuel system, since they were in continous contact.
That sort of corrosion only occurs when you have a current path between the dissimilar metals AND, a conductive path through the fluid in the system.
In Brazil where they have run high ethanol fuels since 1939, they found that to convert older cars designed for gasoline, long before ethanol blends were common, needed several changes to convert the cars over. This led to changes in valve materials, piston rings choices, nickle plating of the fuel tanks etc.
Modern cars in the U.S. are designed for use with ethanol up to 10% concentration in the fuel. That has led to several changes in component materials over the last 30 years that the U.S. has used ethanol enhanced fuels. All modern fuel lines and such are designed with the expectation that some ethanol will be in the fuel.
My experiment is an intentional effort to push the envelope and see what happens. Over the last 2 years I have run high ethanol fuels ( normal pump fuel here in Colorado contains up to 10% ethanol anyway) for months at a time.
At mixtures below 33% by volume of alcohol ( about 39% E-85 by volume) I had absolutely no problems of any kind. At higher mixtures > 33% alcohol, I got a nuisance CEL for too lean which could be eliminated by added gasoline to the mix or as I have recently increased the injector size. (Increasing fuel pressure would also increase the effective size of the injectors).
At mixtures near 65% in my current setup I got a nuisance CEL for the evaporative emissions system, but the car runs very well on the high alcohol blend. The only issue with near 100% E-85, is the car starts a little harder in cold weather. When it gets very cold I drop the mixture to about 80% or so to solve that by adding about 2 gallons of gasoline to the tank of E-85.
I have done no oil analysis at this point, walbro 255l/h fuel pump and 550 injectors show no signs of problems to date.
-It smells like ethanol
-Im sure its not a hard test to figure out the percentage of ethanol in gas?? But Im not sure
Code:
Fuel AFRst FARst Equivalence Lambda ---- ----- ----- Ratio ----- =======================--==================================== Gasoline stoich 14.7 0.068 1 1 Gasoline Max power rich 12.5 0.08 1.176 0.8503 Gasoline Max power lean 13.23 0.0755 1.111 0.900 =======================--==================================== E85 stoich 9.765 0.10235 1 1 E85 Max power rich 6.975 0.1434 1.40 0.7143 E85 Max power lean 8.4687 0.118 1.153 0.8673 =======================--==================================== E100 stoich 9.0 0.111 1 1 E100 Max power rich 6.429 0.155 1.4 0.714 E100 Max power lean 7.8 0.128 1.15 0.870 =======================--====================================
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From: Zionsville, IN, U.S.A.
Re: (boostedh22a)
what would be needed for a complete conversion kit to run 100% ethanol fuel
For full conversion to alcohol fuels the change list typically looks something like:
1. Go to an compatable fuel pump (non-sparking if intank design).
2. Replace fuel lines with alcohol compatable lines.
3. Possibly replace filter (???).
4. Replace injectors with large enough ones to feed proper fueling.
5. Replace injector/FPR o-rings with compatible o-rings... viton maybe?
6. Add a spark/flash suppressor to the fuel tank inlet tube.
7. Ensure the fuel tank material is completely compatable with alcohol.
8. Stop the stock ECU from freaking out due to changes in various emissions sensor readings.
With ethanol on the WRX, you only need (according to my current experience base) is numbers 4, and 8.
I would love to see if one of the ECU reflash vendors can get into the part of the ECU code to solve the evaporative emissions issue. I'm pretty sure the Evap emissions problem can be spoofed mechanically but just have not had time to look at it. If not the simple solution is to drop to a 60% blend. That would reduce consumption of oil by nearly 2/3's give you probably 1/2 the emissions you get with gasoline, and some where between 5% - 10% more power.
For full conversion to alcohol fuels the change list typically looks something like:
1. Go to an compatable fuel pump (non-sparking if intank design).
2. Replace fuel lines with alcohol compatable lines.
3. Possibly replace filter (???).
4. Replace injectors with large enough ones to feed proper fueling.
5. Replace injector/FPR o-rings with compatible o-rings... viton maybe?
6. Add a spark/flash suppressor to the fuel tank inlet tube.
7. Ensure the fuel tank material is completely compatable with alcohol.
8. Stop the stock ECU from freaking out due to changes in various emissions sensor readings.
With ethanol on the WRX, you only need (according to my current experience base) is numbers 4, and 8.
I would love to see if one of the ECU reflash vendors can get into the part of the ECU code to solve the evaporative emissions issue. I'm pretty sure the Evap emissions problem can be spoofed mechanically but just have not had time to look at it. If not the simple solution is to drop to a 60% blend. That would reduce consumption of oil by nearly 2/3's give you probably 1/2 the emissions you get with gasoline, and some where between 5% - 10% more power.
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From: Zionsville, IN, U.S.A.
What about fuel system corrosion?
Corrosion does not appear to be an issue with modern OBDII cars. They are all certified by the manufactures to be safe to use on 10% ethanol fuel blends, and industry insiders say they are safe for much higher percentages. You don't install components that are "sorta safe" with a chemical, you put in a fuel hose etc. that is ethanol safe for concentrations well above what you expect to use. Not to mention that folks have been talking for years about raising the ethanol level to 20% or more.
Occasional use would be no problem at all based on my experience. I have never cut open the fuel filter (still have the OEM filter in place) I'll open it when I replace it. I want to put enough time on it to have conclusive evidence if there are problems.
The engine is not an issue with either, WI using a water alcohol mix or straight alcohol injection. In those systems alcohol and water are not used in significant quantity or for long duration. The Buick GN folks and lots of folks in the DSM crowd have done it for literally decades with no problems for the engine.
Many years ago there were studies that indicated engines that ran on alcohol ALONE as a fuel, had issues with lubrication and valve seat wear. Keep in mind, those studies were done a long time ago, when engine oils were much less sophisticated than they are now, and some engine manufactures in the 1940's,1950' and 1960's made stupid engineering decisions and did not use hard valve seat inserts like stellite in the cylinder heads. This resulted in valve seat recession problems if you did not have lead additives in the fuel to protect the valve seats.
Corrosion does not appear to be an issue with modern OBDII cars. They are all certified by the manufactures to be safe to use on 10% ethanol fuel blends, and industry insiders say they are safe for much higher percentages. You don't install components that are "sorta safe" with a chemical, you put in a fuel hose etc. that is ethanol safe for concentrations well above what you expect to use. Not to mention that folks have been talking for years about raising the ethanol level to 20% or more.
Occasional use would be no problem at all based on my experience. I have never cut open the fuel filter (still have the OEM filter in place) I'll open it when I replace it. I want to put enough time on it to have conclusive evidence if there are problems.
The engine is not an issue with either, WI using a water alcohol mix or straight alcohol injection. In those systems alcohol and water are not used in significant quantity or for long duration. The Buick GN folks and lots of folks in the DSM crowd have done it for literally decades with no problems for the engine.
Many years ago there were studies that indicated engines that ran on alcohol ALONE as a fuel, had issues with lubrication and valve seat wear. Keep in mind, those studies were done a long time ago, when engine oils were much less sophisticated than they are now, and some engine manufactures in the 1940's,1950' and 1960's made stupid engineering decisions and did not use hard valve seat inserts like stellite in the cylinder heads. This resulted in valve seat recession problems if you did not have lead additives in the fuel to protect the valve seats.
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From: Zionsville, IN, U.S.A.
How does ignition timing change on E85 ?
Timing on ethanol blends will not change very much. MBT timing for both gasoline and E85 are very nearly the same at light to moderate engine loads. At high engine load the E85 will want just slightly more advance. The big difference will be fuel/air mixture. The E85 will give improved torque with much richer mixtures than gasoline. Both gasoline and E85 will give best thermal effeciency at about 15% rich of stoich, so the equivalent of 12.78:1 on gasoline would be about 8.5:1 on E85, but E85 will continue to give better torque numbers up to about +40% rich of stoich or 7:1 mixtures, so on a utec you would want to richen up your WOT high load cells and add a tweak of timing to get the most out of E85 from what I've read.
Quote:
Are you sure you don't mean that E85 will allow more advance?
Just passing on what I've found in the various sources. Logically you are correct, but one source says simply that MBT timing is the same for E85 and gasoline, and another report says at low loads the E85 and gasoline like the same MBT timing but at high loads MBT timing for the E85 is slightly more advance.
I suspect this is due to them not running ideal max power mixtures but cannot confirm it. Burn speed for E85 changes quite a bit with mixture, so if they were just a little bit lean or rich of ideal the burn rate would be lower.
Lots and lots of variables not well covered in some of the sources and in general they are focusing on emissions issues not max power torque so that would incline them to use less than best power timing advance. In a couple of the reports they also had limited control authority over timing and may not have explored the extremes very thoroughly.
Timing on ethanol blends will not change very much. MBT timing for both gasoline and E85 are very nearly the same at light to moderate engine loads. At high engine load the E85 will want just slightly more advance. The big difference will be fuel/air mixture. The E85 will give improved torque with much richer mixtures than gasoline. Both gasoline and E85 will give best thermal effeciency at about 15% rich of stoich, so the equivalent of 12.78:1 on gasoline would be about 8.5:1 on E85, but E85 will continue to give better torque numbers up to about +40% rich of stoich or 7:1 mixtures, so on a utec you would want to richen up your WOT high load cells and add a tweak of timing to get the most out of E85 from what I've read.
Quote:
Are you sure you don't mean that E85 will allow more advance?
Just passing on what I've found in the various sources. Logically you are correct, but one source says simply that MBT timing is the same for E85 and gasoline, and another report says at low loads the E85 and gasoline like the same MBT timing but at high loads MBT timing for the E85 is slightly more advance.
I suspect this is due to them not running ideal max power mixtures but cannot confirm it. Burn speed for E85 changes quite a bit with mixture, so if they were just a little bit lean or rich of ideal the burn rate would be lower.
Lots and lots of variables not well covered in some of the sources and in general they are focusing on emissions issues not max power torque so that would incline them to use less than best power timing advance. In a couple of the reports they also had limited control authority over timing and may not have explored the extremes very thoroughly.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 526
Likes: 1
From: Las Vegas, NV
Re: (RacerStev)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerStev »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">LOL, If this stuff works as well as I've been told, VP is gonna be hateing it!
Geez, $2 a gallon AND 5-10% more power vs $10 a gallon for C16</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't you mean less power? e85=105oct and c16=117oct
Geez, $2 a gallon AND 5-10% more power vs $10 a gallon for C16</TD></TR></TABLE>
Don't you mean less power? e85=105oct and c16=117oct
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From: Zionsville, IN, U.S.A.
Re: (RacerStev)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RacerStev »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">LOL, If this stuff works as well as I've been told, VP is gonna be hateing it!
Geez, $2 a gallon AND 5-10% more power vs $10 a gallon for C16</TD></TR></TABLE>
The only problem I see is I wouldn't push more than about 23-25psi on E85, where I would push 40psi on C16. Now it's kind of a moot point with me cause I run E98 or higher, but in comparing C16-E85, at lower boost levels it does make more power, but how much boost are people willing to push on it???
Geez, $2 a gallon AND 5-10% more power vs $10 a gallon for C16</TD></TR></TABLE>
The only problem I see is I wouldn't push more than about 23-25psi on E85, where I would push 40psi on C16. Now it's kind of a moot point with me cause I run E98 or higher, but in comparing C16-E85, at lower boost levels it does make more power, but how much boost are people willing to push on it???
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Joined: Jan 2003
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From: Los Angeles, Ca., USA
Re: (boostedh22a)
Some hope for us Cali peeps.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blog.tmcnet.com »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Gov. Schwarzenegger offered some positive commentary on a grant to the state of California for 15 public E85 stations furnished by the DoE.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gov. Schwarzenegger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"This half million dollar grant is great news for the state and will help build 15 additional ethanol fueling stations to give Californians another option that will help diversify our energy supply. It will help clean our air, encourage more people to purchase flex fuel vehicles and allow Californians to continue leading the nation in environmental protection.
"The choice to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and the move to a cleaner economy is a choice we make for the future. Since I became Governor, I have worked hard to bring Californians an alternative to oil. I signed an executive order to create the Hydrogen Highway and build a network of hydrogen fueling stations along these roadways and in the urban centers that they connect to by 2010."
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I sure hope so, our 91octane poop gas sucks!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedh22a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The only problem I see is I wouldn't push more than about 23-25psi on E85, where I would push 40psi on C16. Now it's kind of a moot point with me cause I run E98 or higher, but in comparing C16-E85, at lower boost levels it does make more power, but how much boost are people willing to push on it??? </TD></TR></TABLE>
What if you make your own blend of 85% E100 and 15% C16?
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blog.tmcnet.com »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Gov. Schwarzenegger offered some positive commentary on a grant to the state of California for 15 public E85 stations furnished by the DoE.
</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Gov. Schwarzenegger »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">"This half million dollar grant is great news for the state and will help build 15 additional ethanol fueling stations to give Californians another option that will help diversify our energy supply. It will help clean our air, encourage more people to purchase flex fuel vehicles and allow Californians to continue leading the nation in environmental protection.
"The choice to reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and the move to a cleaner economy is a choice we make for the future. Since I became Governor, I have worked hard to bring Californians an alternative to oil. I signed an executive order to create the Hydrogen Highway and build a network of hydrogen fueling stations along these roadways and in the urban centers that they connect to by 2010."
</TD></TR></TABLE>
I sure hope so, our 91octane poop gas sucks!
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedh22a »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
The only problem I see is I wouldn't push more than about 23-25psi on E85, where I would push 40psi on C16. Now it's kind of a moot point with me cause I run E98 or higher, but in comparing C16-E85, at lower boost levels it does make more power, but how much boost are people willing to push on it??? </TD></TR></TABLE>
What if you make your own blend of 85% E100 and 15% C16?
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From: Zionsville, IN, U.S.A.
Re: (TrueNorthStar)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by TrueNorthStar »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What if you make your own blend of 85% E100 and 15% C16? </TD></TR></TABLE>
I've wondered about that, I've never tried, but it would be interesting to see the results.
</TD></TR></TABLE>I've wondered about that, I've never tried, but it would be interesting to see the results.
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Joined: May 2004
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From: Sumpter Twp, MI
Re: (boostedh22a)
boostedh22a, why wouldn't you run more than 25psi on it?
I was playing with a talon earlier this week at 30psi with what seemed like a conservative tune (~700hp car at this boost) and had no issues. I've seen dyno graphs from a couple dsm guys on E85 at 660-690whp.
Did you run into problems at a certain boost level or timing/tuning? I'm just curious because I haven't found many people at all with bad experiences on this stuff. I'm also still looking for info on how to read plugs with it too and if detonation speckles the plugs up like how gas does.
Kevin
I was playing with a talon earlier this week at 30psi with what seemed like a conservative tune (~700hp car at this boost) and had no issues. I've seen dyno graphs from a couple dsm guys on E85 at 660-690whp.
Did you run into problems at a certain boost level or timing/tuning? I'm just curious because I haven't found many people at all with bad experiences on this stuff. I'm also still looking for info on how to read plugs with it too and if detonation speckles the plugs up like how gas does.
Kevin
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From: Elkinspark, pa, usa
Re: (kiggly)
I'm also wondering about EGT's, I know it must be alot lower then gas. What should I shoot for?
Will the lower EGT delay turbo spool? SO so important with a auto trans...
A point concerning octane, I wonder how they test octane with this moonshine?
You can dunp a bunch of this stuff in and still make alot of power...
I went to my local speed shop today and asked about E85, this is also were I buy
my C16. First I was told you couldn't get it around here, I pushed on. Then I was
told "you will lose a bunch of power" I pressed some more. Then I was given the address for 2 places that carry it LOL.
Steve
Will the lower EGT delay turbo spool? SO so important with a auto trans...
A point concerning octane, I wonder how they test octane with this moonshine?
You can dunp a bunch of this stuff in and still make alot of power...
I went to my local speed shop today and asked about E85, this is also were I buy
my C16. First I was told you couldn't get it around here, I pushed on. Then I was
told "you will lose a bunch of power" I pressed some more. Then I was given the address for 2 places that carry it LOL.
Steve
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From: Sumpter Twp, MI
Re: (RacerStev)
I hear EGT's are about 200deg lower, but have no proof of that. The engine bay after a WOT pull was definitely much, much cooler than it was running gas. The car I was playing with is a consistent high 9-second car and an automatic. Spoolup was a little better with E85 than it was with C16. It used to take about 4 seconds to build up the 2-step and stabilize at boost, it was maybe 3.5 seconds on E85. Remember, you're also tossing more mass at the turbine wheel with this stuff, which helps spool.
Kevin
Kevin
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 488
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From: Wichita Falls, Texas
Re: (kiggly)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by kiggly »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> I'm also still looking for info on how to read plugs with it too and if detonation speckles the plugs up like how gas does.
Kevin</TD></TR></TABLE>
It will look the same as Gas, Methanol, Ethanol. Because those tiny Speckles are TINY pieces of your rings and or Cylinder walls.
Kevin</TD></TR></TABLE>
It will look the same as Gas, Methanol, Ethanol. Because those tiny Speckles are TINY pieces of your rings and or Cylinder walls.
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Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Tuscaloosa, Al, usa
Re: (tony1)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I think that's the same pump the one i did had, around 620-650whp.</TD></TR></TABLE>
did had?
did had?
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From: city of angels
Re: (SpeedDreamz.com)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SpeedDreamz.com »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
did had? </TD></TR></TABLE>
dam you beat me to it
did had?
</TD></TR></TABLE>dam you beat me to it
