<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if that is the case, alcohol burns slower, why does it need "2 times" the amount of gas for the same power output ?
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The Stoich a/f for gas is 14.7 and for Meth it's 6.4 So that means you will have to pass more then double the weight of fuel (meth) to heat the same amount of air to the same temperature as we need for gasoline.

It's chemistry... Gas/Meth/Eth all have different calorific values...

The avg btu rating of typical gasoline you find at the pumps it usually comes in around 112,000 btu's per gallon. (10% eth)..

Ethanol comes in at 84,400 btu's per gallon.

Meth comes in at 62,800 btu's per gallon.

Meth has the best combustion stoicheometry that's why most use it.
Ethanol has better combustion stoicheometry then gas.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">id imagine its from trying to ignite all that extra fuel is when you need that "extra" spark.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah...

There's so much of it you'll need strong spark. Especially starting up on a cold day.
if you don't ignite it, the plugs will be dripping with fuel very quick.

 

i still dont understand how it will be a "slower " burn with alcohol.

 

do you understand that pump fuel will burn faster then race fuel?

 

Different fuels have different burn rates. This is where all the chemistry comes in and i'm a bit rusty here since my last chem class was in 93. (feeling old now)
But anyway different octanes, hydrocarbons, and distillation of fuel all have an effect on the burn rate of the fuel.

This is why you'll need more timing with race fuel or methanol then you would with regular pump gas.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FMUNK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Carey, When was the last time those injectors were flowed?? Flow and clean could not hurt. I think Precision does it for like $15.
We never had trouble with the filter, but we had to clean the injectors twice last season. It would always be black stuff, so I believe it was rubber out of the fuel lines. They have been on there since I built the car.........so it has been a while.
Just a thought! I feel pretty confident that is one of your issues


Modified by FMUNK at 4:44 PM 12/28/2006


Modified by FMUNK at 4:45 PM 12/28/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>

I forgot to mention that I also had Stewart Racing Engines here in Indy flow and clean the injectors (Before E-town). There was one that was about 15% lower on flow than the rest, however, we came to the conclusion that still wasn't the problem. I do agree though, we got the same "black stuff" out of the injectors that you speak of. Acutually in E-town, I took the injectors out, and tapped them onto a piece of paper towel and got a ton of black looking particles out of them, as well as the fuel filter?? The injectors definately need to be flowed and cleaned a few times a season, but I still don't feel that this was the problem (at least this time). It was either the flow of the pump, or.......I'm really not sure since it seems that I covered all other angles. To bad the MoTec I have can't stage injection (M400). If this was a race car, I would have no problem running 2 injectors per hole, but I do drive this car on the street, so it's not a real great option with the EMS that I have. I have thought about selling the MoTec and running the Big Stuff3 system so I could run 8 injectors in a staged format, but I thought I would give the 16v battery/alternator a try since it wasn't all that expensive.

 

Cary,

Wouldn't 1600cc Injectors on 100% Ethanol be more like 600whp, not 800whp?

Cus I know 1600cc Injectors on Gas is ~ 800-850whp.

So let's say we add ~50% more fuel for Ethanol that would be ~2400cc of Injector to make 800whp-850whp on Ethanol.

What turbo are you running?

A 61mm Turbo is going to be in the 580-630whp Range @ 30psi, depending on your efficiency. Maybe there isn't a problem at all? I mean, I'm sure 16v to the Fuel Pump and a couple more Injectors wouldn't hurt if you are ready to make some serious horsepower.

I know for a fact that 1000cc Injectors @ 55psi base Pressure max out at 640whp Actual Horsepower on a Dynojet...Gasoline. Now, people can argue with me till the cows come home about how much power their buddy made or how fast he went in his blah blah blah...640whp Actual, No Bullshit Horsepower on 1000cc Injectors.

That being said, I would probably come close to maxing 1600cc Injectors @ the same horsepower on E85, and Definately Max them out on E98. Therefore, It could be deduced that you are at the low 600whp Range. Obviously you are runnng a Flat-4 Subaru which has a different BSFC than a 2L Honda Engine...but not really...especially when they are both turbo'd.

What's your Trap Speed\Weight? We can come decently close to your horsepower level using that...If you end up being in the High 500\Low 600 Range...I don't think you have a problem at all...

On a Sidenote: Doesn't a Company make 2200cc Injectors? I remember Ben Strader telling me about them a couple years ago when the Laskey's first went to Methanol. That might be a problem solver for 700-800whp on Ethanol, keeping 4 Injectors.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Suprdave &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
On a Sidenote: Doesn't a Company make 2200cc Injectors? </TD></TR></TABLE>

i heard they are a bitch to control(but i was told this by the same person that told me alcohol burns faster, so we cant advance the timing too much...)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Enzo-Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">do you understand that pump fuel will burn faster then race fuel?</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Enzo-Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Different fuels have different burn rates. This is where all the chemistry comes in and i'm a bit rusty here since my last chem class was in 93. (feeling old now)
But anyway different octanes, hydrocarbons, and distillation of fuel all have an effect on the burn rate of the fuel.

This is why you'll need more timing with race fuel or methanol then you would with regular pump gas.


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i appriciate you guys trying to help me understand how this works but, honestly im still not grasping the concept.

 

I know for a fact that 1000cc Injectors @ 55psi base Pressure max out at 640whp Actual Horsepower on a Dynojet...Gasoline. Now, people can argue with me till the cows come home about how much power their buddy made or how fast he went in his blah blah blah...640whp Actual, No Bullshit Horsepower on 1000cc Injectors.

I don't know about your car or maybe it's just hondas in general but I have built or helped to build several dsm's that have made from 680 to 720 whp on 1000 cc injectors.
E-85 should need approx. 35% more flow than gas-most people I do believe can get at least 900 awhp (or approx.990-1000 whp) from 1600 cc injectors on race gas.
Running on e-85 with 1600 cc injectors you should be able to make apporx. 650-700 whp(theoretically).

 

RPM has a lot to do with it, a 650+hp honda is likely to see 10k+, i don't think most DSM's are reving that high. I have a lot of experience with hondas in that hp range, and i've found the same thing as dave at 40-50psi base fuel pressure. If you double that base pressure, you can get a lot more out of the injectors, as long as the pumps can keep up.

And from my experience with both E85 and methanol, it takes more fuel that it says it will on paper. Even Ben Strader thought 4 1600cc injectors would be enough fuel for Laskey's car on methanol. Doing it on paper, it should work. I think what you don't factor in is that the bsfc goes to **** on alcohol, possibly because of all the additional fuel that's being stuffed in the motor. It takes considerably more than twice the amount of fuel for methanol, and from what i'm seeing with E85, you pretty much better plan on having double the fuel system you though you would need if you don't want to max it out.

As for the 280lb injectors, they're out there, but they don't work well with liquid fuel. They were designed for propane. With liquid fuel they pretty much pour it in and it won't atomize properly.

More injectors and/or more fuel pressure is the way to go. Just make sure your pump is capable of keeping up.

Carey, if you're at 30psi base fuel pressure, i don't think there's anything "wrong" with your car at all. Find out if that pump can keep up with 100psi at the flow you'll need and crank your base pressure up to 75psi or so. Should help the fuel atomize better too.

 

Tony it's crazy how much fuel it takes...
Not only does the brake spec go to **** but motors on alky love fuel.
mixture's you would think are way to rich actually respond very well...
that's also another reason why you shouldn't design a fuel system for just enough fuel.

I have also found elec fuel pumps and alky are not a good combo for high hp.
Unless you plan to spend big money for multiple pumps...

Mechnical is the only way to go in my opinion.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">More injectors and/or more fuel pressure is the way to go. Just make sure your pump is capable of keeping up.
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Absolutely!!!

mech fuel pump with high fuel pressure and bosch 160lb injectors work the best for me. And if 8 isn't enough use 10.

Those 2200cc injectors i believe are modified 160lb. They don't spray they pour!!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Carey, if you're at 30psi base fuel pressure, i don't think there's anything "wrong" with your car at all. Find out if that pump can keep up with 100psi at the flow you'll need and crank your base pressure up to 75psi or so. Should help the fuel atomize better too.

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I am also going to try this as well. I got this email from Simon at MoTec and he suggested the same thing. Im at about 45psi base fuel pressure

The M400 can not stage injectors as you would need additional injector
outputs to do this. An M800 could certainly accomplish this task with
ease. You will have to double up the injectors on each output and suffer
the minimum fuel pulse of about 1.5msec to both injectors at idle. Those
injectors can handle up to 110psi static rail pressure with 1:1 boost
regulation on top of that. I'm not so sure the Weldon will.

It is very important you understand that the ECU stops fueling at ~91%
duty cycle and that any additonal reported duty is just a pointer toward
how far away you are from your goal. This means that the engine is
leaning out above 91% duty regardless of the fuel table numbers!

Based on your report of 110% duty and a desired goal of 85% maximum duty
you need a 110-85=25% increase in fuel flow. You could accomplish this
with fuel pressure, taking it from 45psi to 75psi and then lowering your
IJPU (and answering NO to the interpolation question) 25% (multiply your
current IJPU by 0.75 and round up to the nearest whole number).

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by boostedh22a &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
It is very important you understand that the ECU stops fueling at ~91%
duty cycle and that any additonal reported duty is just a pointer toward
how far away you are from your goal. This means that the engine is
leaning out above 91% duty regardless of the fuel table numbers!

Based on your report of 110% duty and a desired goal of 85% maximum duty
you need a 110-85=25% increase in fuel flow. You could accomplish this
with fuel pressure, taking it from 45psi to 75psi and then lowering your
IJPU (and answering NO to the interpolation question) 25% (multiply your
current IJPU by 0.75 and round up to the nearest whole number).
</TD></TR></TABLE>

You know, i've been told that before, that past 91% duty, no more fuel is injected, but i don't believe it. My only reason for saying so is that if that was the case, at anything above 91% duty cycle the engine would start going lean. We've had chucks car at 110-120% duty most of last year and only above 115-120% duty would it actually start running leaner. Then we put 3 injectors per hole and got it down to 75% duty. And that was at 100psi base fuel pressure.

 

I dont really agree with the DC issue that he said either

I just got off the phone with Kinsler and they told me that my weldon pump at 100psi flows 1285lb/hr of fuel (at 16v). I have a 16v alternator on the car now which puts out over 18v to charge the battery, so that could only help the situation I would think. They seem to think it would be fine running a base fuel pressure of 75psi and go from there.

Too bad all the tracks are closed around here, I might have to go out and do some country road pulls...haha

 

I posted some rough E85 information on my site. BTU ratings and specific output.

Its not finalized, so if any of you guys see anything grossly incorrect, let me know!

http://www.mixedmotorsports.com/page6.html

-s

 

Carey,

Maybe your fuel pump just doesn't flow what it's supposed to..
I lost all faith in elec pumps.

I had a mazda with 2 - 2025 pumps at 60 psi base with ~40 psi boost and
it was at 105% duty cycle(10 -160lb inj). Weldon told me that for my power level he would run 2-2345's. At $1100 each. Yeah right..

We put on a mech pump and now at 40psi base fuel pressure were at 75% duty cycle.

 

Carey, you've got more than enough inputs, are you logging fuel pressure? How big are your lines and rails? Put a sensor in the fuel rail and log it at the fastest sampling rate you can.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Enzo-Racing &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Carey,

Maybe your fuel pump just doesn't flow what it's supposed to..
I lost all faith in elec pumps.

I had a mazda with 2 - 2025 pumps at 60 psi base with ~40 psi boost and
it was at 105% duty cycle(10 -160lb inj). Weldon told me that for my power level he would run 2-2345's. At $1100 each. Yeah right..

We put on a mech pump and now at 40psi base fuel pressure were at 75% duty cycle.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

Im starting to wonder about the electric pump, Im going to give the increased base FP, and the 18v of juice a try, and then I just might have to switch over to a mechanical pump.


<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tony1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Carey, you've got more than enough inputs, are you logging fuel pressure? How big are your lines and rails? Put a sensor in the fuel rail and log it at the fastest sampling rate you can.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am running -10 from the cell to the pump, -10 from the pump to a fuel "Y", -6 to each of the rails (each rail feeding 2 injectors) -6 from the rails to the FPR, -8 back to the cell. I haven't been logging fuel pressure, however after all of this I am definately going to for next season. Is there a particular sensor you would recommend??

 

Carey use any linear 0~5v pressure transducer.
I use calico, ssi, Ti, all with success.

Get it with 1/8npt and screw it right into your regulator.

 

Screw it into the rail itself and you'll be able to get a better idea of what's going on. You might need bigger diameter fuel rails. Those big injectors open and they can empty a fuel rail pretty quick. I'd possibly look into going to -8 into the rails and make sure the rails are very big i.d. TWM has some nice -10 fuel rail stock if you need to make something.

 

Cool, thanks for all the info guys. I have yet to get the car back out with the current changes I have made, hopefully this will make a difference.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by dturbocivic &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

i appriciate you guys trying to help me understand how this works but, honestly im still not grasping the concept. </TD></TR></TABLE> SCIENCE PROJECT!!! Try this ( I know it is crude but give it a try) Get a gallon of Pumpgas, racegas, Methanol, Ethanol, Diesel just for fun. Pour it on the ground and throw a match in it. You will notice that they will ignite easier than the otherand even burn longer or shorter than the other. The diesel will almost be hard to ignite!!

That is why at a truck stop they do not shut trucks off, hell you are walking around in puddles of fuel on the ground.

Very Crude, but maybe it may help a little.

BTW, BE CAREFUL!! Do not set yourself on fire.

 

waiting for people to try that and come back with burned hands

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FMUNK &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> SCIENCE PROJECT!!! Try this ( I know it is crude but give it a try) Get a gallon of Pumpgas, racegas, Methanol, Ethanol, Diesel just for fun. Pour it on the ground and throw a match in it. You will notice that they will ignite easier than the otherand even burn longer or shorter than the other. The diesel will almost be hard to ignite!!

That is why at a truck stop they do not shut trucks off, hell you are walking around in puddles of fuel on the ground.

Very Crude, but maybe it may help a little.

BTW, BE CAREFUL!! Do not set yourself on fire. </TD></TR></TABLE>

You can always try that in a bucket with a A-bomb in it, and shoot roman candles at it....haha. Too bad the a-bomb was just a crapper tank for an old RV