BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
03-27-2019, 04:46 PM
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BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
Ok, hopefully gonna be getting back in the game and back out in the garage for the first time in a good long while, almost 9 years. I have a '98 ITR, and I want to freshen up/build my stock B18C5. It has been out of the car and in the corner of the garage since early '11. The car currently has my built 2L w/o a turbo set up (sold it 3.5 years ago so my wife and I could go on vacation), and has been sitting since late '15. I want to pull my built 2L and set it aside, and want to do a nice sturdy NA build with the B18C5. My power goal is 220whp, and depending on what I can source or what is available, go with ITB's.
My questions are what kind of compression ratios and cams will this build/goal require? I have a set of Skunk2 Pro1's cams in my built engine that I can use, and Ive read that their sweet spot is 11.5-12.0 comp ratio. Can you get to that ratio with some JDM ITR or CTR pistons, or would it be better to just get an aftermarket set for exactly what I want? Also, are Pro1's good for the 220whp goal I have? I would like to keep the stock rods, and just replace/upgrade bearings and hardware, is that doable? There is also a good chance ITB's will break the bank, so would the build require an aftermarket IM like an Edelbrock PerformerX or an over sized TB? I have an Edelbrock VictorX and BDL 70mm on my 2L, but they are more forced induction oriented. Also, fuel wise, I have 1000cc Bosch's in the car already, which are overkill, but they will be fine with a proper tune.
Any advice and info would be greatly appreciated. I've been outta the game a long time, and my only major build Ive done was a turbo build. I want to go with the true ITR spirit with this build, a screamer of a NA build for driving back roads and twisties!
EDIT: More info, haha! AEM EMS will be used for tuning. And it occured to me I could just but my built head (B16) off my 2L and use it on my C5 block. The head already has the cams and valves, springs, retainers, and a killer PnP job on it.
My questions are what kind of compression ratios and cams will this build/goal require? I have a set of Skunk2 Pro1's cams in my built engine that I can use, and Ive read that their sweet spot is 11.5-12.0 comp ratio. Can you get to that ratio with some JDM ITR or CTR pistons, or would it be better to just get an aftermarket set for exactly what I want? Also, are Pro1's good for the 220whp goal I have? I would like to keep the stock rods, and just replace/upgrade bearings and hardware, is that doable? There is also a good chance ITB's will break the bank, so would the build require an aftermarket IM like an Edelbrock PerformerX or an over sized TB? I have an Edelbrock VictorX and BDL 70mm on my 2L, but they are more forced induction oriented. Also, fuel wise, I have 1000cc Bosch's in the car already, which are overkill, but they will be fine with a proper tune.
Any advice and info would be greatly appreciated. I've been outta the game a long time, and my only major build Ive done was a turbo build. I want to go with the true ITR spirit with this build, a screamer of a NA build for driving back roads and twisties!
EDIT: More info, haha! AEM EMS will be used for tuning. And it occured to me I could just but my built head (B16) off my 2L and use it on my C5 block. The head already has the cams and valves, springs, retainers, and a killer PnP job on it.
Last edited by BFDTypeR; 03-27-2019 at 04:53 PM. Reason: More info
03-27-2019, 05:52 PM
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re: BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
For 220 hp ITB's might be a bit over kill I think you can do that with the Pro 1 cams you have and port the crap out the stock ITR manifold with a 74mm TB or go with the ported SK2 Ultra street manifold and a 74mm TB. As far as compression it will dep. on what type of fuel used E85 is a good fuel 93 ect. 12;1 would be fine or even JDM ITR pistons. I made 215 hp on a very basic setup using pro 1 JDM ITR pistons and a pro series manifold so its very doable if you venture into ITB's your looking at making around 250 to 300 hp depending on comp. fuel and cams I hear ITB's are bit more tricky to tune but as long as your tuner is good its no problem, 4 piston sells a good street engine setup good for 300 HP all motor which is very common for there engine setups they would give you some good advise and point you in the right direction if you ever speak to there customer service.
03-28-2019, 06:35 AM
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re: BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
I'll more than likely go with 93 for fuel. I would like to go with E85, but it's still somewhat scarce in my area, with only a couple stations selling it within 5 miles or so.
Another question about the IM and TB though. When my 2L was built, we broke it in without the turbo, and I drove it for 500ish mi. We put a good tune on it and it made 182whp. It was built for boost, so the CR is about 9.8-10.0. With the big 70mm TB and VictorX, when you would go from partial throttle to full, it would fall flat until the air intake caught up and then would pull nicely pretty much how my I/H/E B18C5 would (it was also about 180whp). Ok to the actual question, would bumping the CR to the 12.0 range help get rid of that falling flat if I still used the VictorX, or would I need to bump the CR and get a IM more suited towards mid to high range powerband?
Another thought just occurred to me last night as well. It would probably be just as easy to just swap to a higher CR piston in my built engine, rather than doing so much to my stock B18C5. It would be better on my bank account too time sure.
I tend to get long winded at times, I apologize. Thanks for the info!
Another question about the IM and TB though. When my 2L was built, we broke it in without the turbo, and I drove it for 500ish mi. We put a good tune on it and it made 182whp. It was built for boost, so the CR is about 9.8-10.0. With the big 70mm TB and VictorX, when you would go from partial throttle to full, it would fall flat until the air intake caught up and then would pull nicely pretty much how my I/H/E B18C5 would (it was also about 180whp). Ok to the actual question, would bumping the CR to the 12.0 range help get rid of that falling flat if I still used the VictorX, or would I need to bump the CR and get a IM more suited towards mid to high range powerband?
Another thought just occurred to me last night as well. It would probably be just as easy to just swap to a higher CR piston in my built engine, rather than doing so much to my stock B18C5. It would be better on my bank account too time sure.
I tend to get long winded at times, I apologize. Thanks for the info!
03-28-2019, 01:48 PM
#4
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re: BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
I'll more than likely go with 93 for fuel. I would like to go with E85, but it's still somewhat scarce in my area, with only a couple stations selling it within 5 miles or so.
Another question about the IM and TB though. When my 2L was built, we broke it in without the turbo, and I drove it for 500ish mi. We put a good tune on it and it made 182whp. It was built for boost, so the CR is about 9.8-10.0. With the big 70mm TB and VictorX, when you would go from partial throttle to full, it would fall flat until the air intake caught up and then would pull nicely pretty much how my I/H/E B18C5 would (it was also about 180whp). Ok to the actual question, would bumping the CR to the 12.0 range help get rid of that falling flat if I still used the VictorX, or would I need to bump the CR and get a IM more suited towards mid to high range powerband?
Another thought just occurred to me last night as well. It would probably be just as easy to just swap to a higher CR piston in my built engine, rather than doing so much to my stock B18C5. It would be better on my bank account too time sure.
I tend to get long winded at times, I apologize. Thanks for the info!
Another question about the IM and TB though. When my 2L was built, we broke it in without the turbo, and I drove it for 500ish mi. We put a good tune on it and it made 182whp. It was built for boost, so the CR is about 9.8-10.0. With the big 70mm TB and VictorX, when you would go from partial throttle to full, it would fall flat until the air intake caught up and then would pull nicely pretty much how my I/H/E B18C5 would (it was also about 180whp). Ok to the actual question, would bumping the CR to the 12.0 range help get rid of that falling flat if I still used the VictorX, or would I need to bump the CR and get a IM more suited towards mid to high range powerband?
Another thought just occurred to me last night as well. It would probably be just as easy to just swap to a higher CR piston in my built engine, rather than doing so much to my stock B18C5. It would be better on my bank account too time sure.
I tend to get long winded at times, I apologize. Thanks for the info!
That flat spot is more than likely a tuning issue/ that huge manifold your using that's meant for FI on a N.A tune could be the culprit. Not to say a very good tuner could clean up the fuel tables but with out a data log or the fuel tables shown its hard to say what's causing the delay. Could be vtec could be anything. I don't think its because you have a lower compression but if why would you want to bump the compression on the engine that you built for turbo?, you should finish that setup and tune it on the turbo before jumping into tearing the motor up for no reason after all you did build it for a turbo kit right? If your thinking of building the built engine that was for your turbo setup to be used for the N.A setup you want its all a waist of time! your stock B18C5 with bolts on's will deff make 220 Hp with no need to tear open the block or head! these days people are boosting stock B series from B16's to B20's and making 400 to 600 HP! its like a conversation I was having with a buddy of mine, I never really understand why people spend so much money and time and collecting parts to build a setup for years that makes the same power as you could on a healthy stock engine. You might get more longevity but you can still make a good amount of HP on stock engines. To each there own but if I was you leave your built setup alone and finish the turbo kit and tune it have fun with it and put a good amount of bolt ons on the B18C5 engine and make your 220 HP. If you want a simple break down ill suggest this,
Stock B18C5
Skunk2 Pro 1 cams
Skunk2 Ultra street manifold ported with 74mm TB add a plenium .5L spacer if you like
3" cold air intake
Tri Y header 2.5' collector, Toda replica is another budget header that will be fine for the HP goal. Skunk2 Mega R Tri Y ect.
2.5" exhaust
Hondata EMS
OEM RDX injectors or ID 550 to even 1000cc injectors will be fine.
Walbro fuel pump
This will deff make 220 HP tuned right its a very simple setup that has been done over and over.
03-28-2019, 06:09 PM
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re: BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
For a N.A application E85 is not really needed you can make 220 hp on 91 pump.
That flat spot is more than likely a tuning issue/ that huge manifold your using that's meant for FI on a N.A tune could be the culprit. Not to say a very good tuner could clean up the fuel tables but with out a data log or the fuel tables shown its hard to say what's causing the delay. Could be vtec could be anything. I don't think its because you have a lower compression but if why would you want to bump the compression on the engine that you built for turbo?, you should finish that setup and tune it on the turbo before jumping into tearing the motor up for no reason after all you did build it for a turbo kit right? If your thinking of building the built engine that was for your turbo setup to be used for the N.A setup you want its all a waist of time! your stock B18C5 with bolts on's will deff make 220 Hp with no need to tear open the block or head! these days people are boosting stock B series from B16's to B20's and making 400 to 600 HP! its like a conversation I was having with a buddy of mine, I never really understand why people spend so much money and time and collecting parts to build a setup for years that makes the same power as you could on a healthy stock engine. You might get more longevity but you can still make a good amount of HP on stock engines. To each there own but if I was you leave your built setup alone and finish the turbo kit and tune it have fun with it and put a good amount of bolt ons on the B18C5 engine and make your 220 HP. If you want a simple break down ill suggest this,
Stock B18C5
Skunk2 Pro 1 cams
Skunk2 Ultra street manifold ported with 74mm TB add a plenium .5L spacer if you like
3" cold air intake
Tri Y header 2.5' collector, Toda replica is another budget header that will be fine for the HP goal. Skunk2 Mega R Tri Y ect.
2.5" exhaust
Hondata EMS
OEM RDX injectors or ID 550 to even 1000cc injectors will be fine.
Walbro fuel pump
This will deff make 220 HP tuned right its a very simple setup that has been done over and over.
That flat spot is more than likely a tuning issue/ that huge manifold your using that's meant for FI on a N.A tune could be the culprit. Not to say a very good tuner could clean up the fuel tables but with out a data log or the fuel tables shown its hard to say what's causing the delay. Could be vtec could be anything. I don't think its because you have a lower compression but if why would you want to bump the compression on the engine that you built for turbo?, you should finish that setup and tune it on the turbo before jumping into tearing the motor up for no reason after all you did build it for a turbo kit right? If your thinking of building the built engine that was for your turbo setup to be used for the N.A setup you want its all a waist of time! your stock B18C5 with bolts on's will deff make 220 Hp with no need to tear open the block or head! these days people are boosting stock B series from B16's to B20's and making 400 to 600 HP! its like a conversation I was having with a buddy of mine, I never really understand why people spend so much money and time and collecting parts to build a setup for years that makes the same power as you could on a healthy stock engine. You might get more longevity but you can still make a good amount of HP on stock engines. To each there own but if I was you leave your built setup alone and finish the turbo kit and tune it have fun with it and put a good amount of bolt ons on the B18C5 engine and make your 220 HP. If you want a simple break down ill suggest this,
Stock B18C5
Skunk2 Pro 1 cams
Skunk2 Ultra street manifold ported with 74mm TB add a plenium .5L spacer if you like
3" cold air intake
Tri Y header 2.5' collector, Toda replica is another budget header that will be fine for the HP goal. Skunk2 Mega R Tri Y ect.
2.5" exhaust
Hondata EMS
OEM RDX injectors or ID 550 to even 1000cc injectors will be fine.
Walbro fuel pump
This will deff make 220 HP tuned right its a very simple setup that has been done over and over.
I am a peace of mind kinda of guy. With that and the info you have given me, I will probably end up opening up my B18C5 and having it gone through/freshened up, and while in there go with some JDM ITR pistons. Ive owned it since '04, its been stock, been on nitrous, and been boosted. It ran like a champ in all phases and never let me down. But it has been siting in the corner for 8+ years now, and I owe it to it to make sure that if I'm gonna push him again, he will be up to the test.
I briefly checked out 4Piston, and there IM porting package seems like a winner. I'll have to give them a call when I start this whole process. wunfstgsr, thanks for the info, it is really appreciated. If i have anything other questions, I know who to ask! THANKS AGAIN!
03-28-2019, 09:47 PM
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re: BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
Well dang, I didn't realize that to get 220+ from an NA build, a stock B18C5 with basically cams and better flowing IM + TB is all I would need. All the info I had stored away in my head is from the mid '00s reading Super Street and Honda Tuning and watching OG Best Motoring vids! I built my turbo setup in '09. We overkilled it for sure, built the bottom end to handle 1000+, knowing full well I would only use half that. The last time it was tuned (early '11) was when I switched to a COP setup, it was making about 525whp on about 19psi on 93.
I am a peace of mind kinda of guy. With that and the info you have given me, I will probably end up opening up my B18C5 and having it gone through/freshened up, and while in there go with some JDM ITR pistons. Ive owned it since '04, its been stock, been on nitrous, and been boosted. It ran like a champ in all phases and never let me down. But it has been siting in the corner for 8+ years now, and I owe it to it to make sure that if I'm gonna push him again, he will be up to the test.
I briefly checked out 4Piston, and there IM porting package seems like a winner. I'll have to give them a call when I start this whole process. wunfstgsr, thanks for the info, it is really appreciated. If i have anything other questions, I know who to ask! THANKS AGAIN!
I am a peace of mind kinda of guy. With that and the info you have given me, I will probably end up opening up my B18C5 and having it gone through/freshened up, and while in there go with some JDM ITR pistons. Ive owned it since '04, its been stock, been on nitrous, and been boosted. It ran like a champ in all phases and never let me down. But it has been siting in the corner for 8+ years now, and I owe it to it to make sure that if I'm gonna push him again, he will be up to the test.
I briefly checked out 4Piston, and there IM porting package seems like a winner. I'll have to give them a call when I start this whole process. wunfstgsr, thanks for the info, it is really appreciated. If i have anything other questions, I know who to ask! THANKS AGAIN!
As a practical example, I can tell you that wunfstgsr's parts list would NEVER make 220 whp on my local tuner's DynoJet... not even close.
03-29-2019, 07:58 AM
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Re: BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
The 800 lb. Gorilla in this discussion is the dyno itself... specifically, if what you want is a dyno sheet, focus on the right dyno to give you the numbers. Now, here is the reality: If you roll 220 whp on dyno brand A, and the next day you only make 198 whp on dyno brand B... did the engine lose 22 whp overnight ??? Of course not.
As a practical example, I can tell you that wunfstgsr's parts list would NEVER make 220 whp on my local tuner's DynoJet... not even close.
As a practical example, I can tell you that wunfstgsr's parts list would NEVER make 220 whp on my local tuner's DynoJet... not even close.
I started this thread to see if I was going down the right path with my own thought process, to get some info/suggestions. I just want to drive my car again after it's been sitting for so long, haha! Again, thanks for the info/in sight. If anyone has setups that they would suggest, please let me know!
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03-29-2019, 06:08 PM
#8
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Re: BFDTypeR's Potential build info needed for an NA ITR
Well dang, I didn't realize that to get 220+ from an NA build, a stock B18C5 with basically cams and better flowing IM + TB is all I would need. All the info I had stored away in my head is from the mid '00s reading Super Street and Honda Tuning and watching OG Best Motoring vids! I built my turbo setup in '09. We overkilled it for sure, built the bottom end to handle 1000+, knowing full well I would only use half that. The last time it was tuned (early '11) was when I switched to a COP setup, it was making about 525whp on about 19psi on 93.
I am a peace of mind kinda of guy. With that and the info you have given me, I will probably end up opening up my B18C5 and having it gone through/freshened up, and while in there go with some JDM ITR pistons. Ive owned it since '04, its been stock, been on nitrous, and been boosted. It ran like a champ in all phases and never let me down. But it has been siting in the corner for 8+ years now, and I owe it to it to make sure that if I'm gonna push him again, he will be up to the test.
I briefly checked out 4Piston, and there IM porting package seems like a winner. I'll have to give them a call when I start this whole process. wunfstgsr, thanks for the info, it is really appreciated. If i have anything other questions, I know who to ask! THANKS AGAIN!
I am a peace of mind kinda of guy. With that and the info you have given me, I will probably end up opening up my B18C5 and having it gone through/freshened up, and while in there go with some JDM ITR pistons. Ive owned it since '04, its been stock, been on nitrous, and been boosted. It ran like a champ in all phases and never let me down. But it has been siting in the corner for 8+ years now, and I owe it to it to make sure that if I'm gonna push him again, he will be up to the test.
I briefly checked out 4Piston, and there IM porting package seems like a winner. I'll have to give them a call when I start this whole process. wunfstgsr, thanks for the info, it is really appreciated. If i have anything other questions, I know who to ask! THANKS AGAIN!
https://cylindersupportsystem.com/
https://honda-tech.com/forums/drag-r...unite-3141064/
I agree different dyno will show different numbers but I still think the setup mentioned is good for 220 hp maybe not a mustang dyno but a dyna pack for sure, and HP is just a number or figure its all about the tune and function of the car in the end.
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