Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution...
01-15-2007, 10:58 PM
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Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution...
Though most people these days are taking the turbo route, there are still a few of us that prefer nitrous. I've done my fair share of turbo builds, but for my next project I was interested in "the juice". After a lot of research into the topic I found what seems to be the most major deterrent of nitrous use- a lack of timing control options. Even amongst all of the amazing tuning programs we've come to know and love, there are very few "timing under nitrous" solutions, and the few options we do have are rather costly.... The only legitimate nitrous timing control devices I have found in my research are the Jacobs Mastermind, Hondata, and MSD, all of which will cost you hundreds of dollars. One of the major benefits of nitrous is its relative affordability, which these expensive timing control units detract from heavily. However, a simple, cheap, and extremely effective solution has been right under our noses... 
I must say, it's hard for me to believe that I am the first person who has thought of this... However, after quite a bit of searching on this site, as well as others, I've found absolutely no info on it. As it turns out, the affordable timing solution that many have searched for is inherent in a common tuning program called TurboEdit, through the simple feature, "One Wire VTEC".
If you are unfamiliar with One Wire VTEC, or the TurboEdit program itself, you can read up on it here > (http://www.xenocron.com/te.php?page=TEvtec). At this point you've either had the same epiphany I had, or you're wondering what the hell VTEC has to do with nitrous control... Simply put, "One Wire VTEC" is just a script that outputs a 12V signal at any user specified RPM. The 12V signal is hooked up to the VTEC solenoid so that when you're engine reaches the specified RPM, the solenoid is activated, and, voila, VTEC!
Still lost? Allow me to explain further.... The 12V signal that activates the VTEC solenoid can be used for many other things as well. A 12V source powers most automotive devices, and the signal that One Wire VTEC outputs could be used for a majority of things, like the VTEC solenoid (duh), a shift light, or even, ding! ding! ding!, a nitrous solenoid. Now, throw in the fuel and timing controls that TurboEdit offers, and you've got yourself one hell of a nitrous set up!
Rather than having the "low cam" and "high cam" maps that you would use in a VTEC setup, you will have "off nitrous" and "on nitrous" maps. You will be able to fine tune fuel and timing under nitrous.
Here is an example-
Lets say we want to activate our nitrous at 3,700 RPMS while adding 15% fuel and pulling 7* of timing. (These numbers are arbitrary and should not be used for your setup....
)
First, we will set up our One Wire VTEC-
Your ECU is now set up to output a 12V signal at 3,700 RPMs. Follow this link > (http://www.xenocron.com/te.php?page=TEvtec) for different output methods.
Next we will add our fuel-
Notice the change in values in the selected field.
Finally, we will pull our timing-
Again, notice the change in values in the selected field.
You are now ready to burn your chip and put your nitrous timing problems to rest! The only thing left to do is hook up the 12V wire (the output method you chose will dictate which wire you use) to your nitrous solenoid.
It should be noted that you do not necessarily have to edit the fuel portion of your map. I just did so as an example. If you are using a wet nitrous kit, or a dry kit that adds fuel via the injectors, fuel map changes will not be necessary.
Well, there you have it! You can now pull timing during nitrous without the expense of a Hondata or MSD unit!
If you have any questions, post up, and I'll do my best to help.
And I aplogize for the long winded post... I think I got a little too excited. Oh well. If this helps just one nitrous junkie, I'm happy!
I must say, it's hard for me to believe that I am the first person who has thought of this... However, after quite a bit of searching on this site, as well as others, I've found absolutely no info on it. As it turns out, the affordable timing solution that many have searched for is inherent in a common tuning program called TurboEdit, through the simple feature, "One Wire VTEC".
If you are unfamiliar with One Wire VTEC, or the TurboEdit program itself, you can read up on it here > (http://www.xenocron.com/te.php?page=TEvtec). At this point you've either had the same epiphany I had, or you're wondering what the hell VTEC has to do with nitrous control... Simply put, "One Wire VTEC" is just a script that outputs a 12V signal at any user specified RPM. The 12V signal is hooked up to the VTEC solenoid so that when you're engine reaches the specified RPM, the solenoid is activated, and, voila, VTEC!
Still lost? Allow me to explain further.... The 12V signal that activates the VTEC solenoid can be used for many other things as well. A 12V source powers most automotive devices, and the signal that One Wire VTEC outputs could be used for a majority of things, like the VTEC solenoid (duh), a shift light, or even, ding! ding! ding!, a nitrous solenoid. Now, throw in the fuel and timing controls that TurboEdit offers, and you've got yourself one hell of a nitrous set up!
Rather than having the "low cam" and "high cam" maps that you would use in a VTEC setup, you will have "off nitrous" and "on nitrous" maps. You will be able to fine tune fuel and timing under nitrous.
Here is an example-
Lets say we want to activate our nitrous at 3,700 RPMS while adding 15% fuel and pulling 7* of timing. (These numbers are arbitrary and should not be used for your setup....
)First, we will set up our One Wire VTEC-
Your ECU is now set up to output a 12V signal at 3,700 RPMs. Follow this link > (http://www.xenocron.com/te.php?page=TEvtec) for different output methods.
Next we will add our fuel-
Notice the change in values in the selected field.
Finally, we will pull our timing-
Again, notice the change in values in the selected field.
You are now ready to burn your chip and put your nitrous timing problems to rest! The only thing left to do is hook up the 12V wire (the output method you chose will dictate which wire you use) to your nitrous solenoid.
It should be noted that you do not necessarily have to edit the fuel portion of your map. I just did so as an example. If you are using a wet nitrous kit, or a dry kit that adds fuel via the injectors, fuel map changes will not be necessary.
Well, there you have it! You can now pull timing during nitrous without the expense of a Hondata or MSD unit!
If you have any questions, post up, and I'll do my best to help.
And I aplogize for the long winded post... I think I got a little too excited.
Oh well. If this helps just one nitrous junkie, I'm happy! 
01-16-2007, 05:56 AM
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Re: Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution... (I am Jack's Username)
Two questions you need to ask.
What happens if you have VTEC?
What happens if you nitrous bottle is off?
What happens if you have VTEC?
What happens if you nitrous bottle is off?
01-16-2007, 06:12 AM
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Re: Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution... (I am Jack's Username)
nice little write up..
have you dont this yet?
have you looked into dual-map (different chip, on a switch) setups? my buddy is talking about doing this, we'll be doing a race gas/pump gas tune on my car this way most likely.
Modified by redzcstandardhatch at 3:24 PM 1/16/2007
have you dont this yet?
have you looked into dual-map (different chip, on a switch) setups? my buddy is talking about doing this, we'll be doing a race gas/pump gas tune on my car this way most likely.
Modified by redzcstandardhatch at 3:24 PM 1/16/2007
01-16-2007, 06:31 AM
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Re: Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution... (redzcstandardhatch)
Run a moates 2timer... allows you to run 2 maps on a 27sf512 chip (sst chips). Run the one ground wire through a switch and to ground... (http://www.moates.net/product_info.p...products_id=80)
You can rig this by hand... the grounding/map switching process.... but its more work
Then you can have a nitrous map and a non-nitrous map.
If you have vtec... you'll either have to activate nitrous at the same time... or run it on its own switch.
Not new btw... it was discussed when the 1wire vtec stuff was setup. If you are not using it for vtec... it can trigger and run anything you want.
You can rig this by hand... the grounding/map switching process.... but its more work
Then you can have a nitrous map and a non-nitrous map.
If you have vtec... you'll either have to activate nitrous at the same time... or run it on its own switch.
Not new btw... it was discussed when the 1wire vtec stuff was setup. If you are not using it for vtec... it can trigger and run anything you want.
01-16-2007, 06:37 AM
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Re: Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution... (splitime)
i think the simplicity and simple explanation of this is what will help people, even turbo people/vtec needing people. people are scared by the DIY engine managment all-together too much
also, splitime...where is the newest version of TE located at PGMFI.org? i couldnt find it the other night.
also, splitime...where is the newest version of TE located at PGMFI.org? i couldnt find it the other night.
01-16-2007, 06:43 AM
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Re: Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution... (redzcstandardhatch)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by redzcstandardhatch »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
also, splitime...where is the newest version of TE located at PGMFI.org? i couldnt find it the other night.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Lol, good Q. TE.org hasn't been updated in forever.
I think I'm running the latest which is like 2.6.x and the roms are ng60 now... not ng55. Heh.. i'll root around for them... haven't updated my TE since i finished testing the datalogging stuff.
Latest TE: http://www.moates.net/product_...id=80
http://www.turboedit.org and download the 2.5.2 Turboedit... then use the above link for the newest exe files. Just unzip them over the 2.5.2 install.
For NG60 stuff... goto the obd0- non-vtec forum on pgmfi.org and also http://www.xenocron.com/bins for maps some of use DIYr's have posted.
also, splitime...where is the newest version of TE located at PGMFI.org? i couldnt find it the other night.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Lol, good Q. TE.org hasn't been updated in forever.
I think I'm running the latest which is like 2.6.x and the roms are ng60 now... not ng55. Heh.. i'll root around for them... haven't updated my TE since i finished testing the datalogging stuff.
Latest TE: http://www.moates.net/product_...id=80
http://www.turboedit.org and download the 2.5.2 Turboedit... then use the above link for the newest exe files. Just unzip them over the 2.5.2 install.
For NG60 stuff... goto the obd0- non-vtec forum on pgmfi.org and also http://www.xenocron.com/bins for maps some of use DIYr's have posted.
01-16-2007, 06:45 AM
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Re: Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution... (splitime)
yeah, i believe when i downloaded it, it was from a post on PGMFI , but that was about 1 year ago (when we did lukes turbo kit i believe, hehe)
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01-16-2007, 09:37 AM
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Re: Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution... (redzcstandardhatch)
Well, it looks like Splitime pretty much answered all of the questions.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Run a moates 2timer... allows you to run 2 maps on a 27sf512 chip (sst chips).</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't know why I forgot to mention that in the writeup... Kind of important.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not new btw... it was discussed when the 1wire vtec stuff was setup. If you are not using it for vtec... it can trigger and run anything you want.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I figured....
Oh well. I think the writeup will be nice in helping to persuade some of the less tech/computer oriented people. Pgmfi.org is an awesome resource, but it can be very intimidating for newcomers. Maybe the simplicity of this will alleviate some of thier fears...
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Run a moates 2timer... allows you to run 2 maps on a 27sf512 chip (sst chips).</TD></TR></TABLE>
I don't know why I forgot to mention that in the writeup... Kind of important.
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by splitime »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Not new btw... it was discussed when the 1wire vtec stuff was setup. If you are not using it for vtec... it can trigger and run anything you want.</TD></TR></TABLE>
I figured....
Oh well. I think the writeup will be nice in helping to persuade some of the less tech/computer oriented people. Pgmfi.org is an awesome resource, but it can be very intimidating for newcomers. Maybe the simplicity of this will alleviate some of thier fears...
01-25-2007, 10:51 AM
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Re: Write Up: Simple, Cheap, and EFFECTIVE Nitrous Timing Retard Solution... (I am Jack's Username)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by I am Jack’s Username »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
I figured.... Oh well. I think the writeup will be nice in helping to persuade some of the less tech/computer oriented people. Pgmfi.org is an awesome resource, but it can be very intimidating for newcomers. Maybe the simplicity of this will alleviate some of thier fears...</TD></TR></TABLE>
Absolutely helpful. pgmfi threads dissappear into the shadows after awhile and the TE forum has been super quiet.
Never hurts to get info out
I figured....
Oh well. I think the writeup will be nice in helping to persuade some of the less tech/computer oriented people. Pgmfi.org is an awesome resource, but it can be very intimidating for newcomers. Maybe the simplicity of this will alleviate some of thier fears...</TD></TR></TABLE>Absolutely helpful. pgmfi threads dissappear into the shadows after awhile and the TE forum has been super quiet.
Never hurts to get info out
01-25-2007, 03:45 PM
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Re: (vtecmissle)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by vtecmissle »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i was always wondering if i could run the vtec wire to a relay to engage a water meth injection kit under vtec.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Can't, unless it engages only when vtec is on. The one wire can run 1 thing... or multiple things at exactly the same time. Its a single switch. Mine runs vtec... can't run anything independently after that.
Can't, unless it engages only when vtec is on. The one wire can run 1 thing... or multiple things at exactly the same time. Its a single switch. Mine runs vtec... can't run anything independently after that.
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