wantboost

iTrader: (2)

He will benefit more from cams than he ever would from port work. Porting is really only obvious in terms of power gains at higher power and rpm levels since porting isn't really about power gains but is geared more towards increasing the efficiency of the motor by allowing it to breathe better. Obviously this increase in efficiency translates to more power and torque but the midrange gains are minimal compared to the top end.

If he were to source a P8R cylinder head and toss some decent cams in he would have a much stronger midrange with increased torque production as well as an increase in high rpm power. Porting the P8R would yield better results than porting a standard non vtec head, especially when used with oversized valves, but for 99% of the non vtec setups out there the P8R has more than adequate port flow numbers in stock form.

His intake manifold is also an improvement over the stock one since it's basically a slightly larger version of an OEM Type R intake manifold. They can benefit from some port cleanup but unless he's at the limit of the design it wouldn't serve much purpose and even if he were it would make more sense to find a more appropriate intake manifold. If he's still using a stock throttle body then moving to a 68mm or 60mm TB and porting the manifold to match would help increase efficiency, especially with larger cams.

The key to making power on a non vtec motor is to make it as efficient as possible using the methods I've mentioned along with proper turbocharger sizing which he seems to have. Granted the technology in that turbo is a bit old but it should suffice for the kind of power he wants. The reason VTEC motors make more power is due to their high efficiency. The stock cylinder head, intake manifold, and cams have all been proven to 800hp or more. It takes a lot of work for an LS head to match the performance of even a stock VTEC head which is why most people looking for more power don't even bother upgrading the LS head, unless they are trying to prove something or a VTEC head isn't in the budget) move straight to a VTEC head.

Da1WiTsKiLz

My intake setup is a 3" aluminum 45* pipe with a mesh screen over the end. I can't really fit a filter unless I go full foam (like a UNI filter). I am using the intake pipe as a vacuum source for the PCV system when in boost.



I don't have any experience with the Blox manifold other than my own setup. Since I will be pulling the turbo soon to rebuild it so I am weighing a couple of upgrade options. Is there any room to make more top end power if I swap to an Inlinepro log manifold? A little tweaking on the downpipe and it should drop right in. I have a rebuilt B16 head on the shelf but I am saving up for a forged bottom end before I slap that on. I may cheap out and throw in some Nippon turbo pistons with forged rods.

With the quick spool settings in Hondata I can get the turbo to spool up ~400RPM earlier but its a pain to tune because my wastegate spring is too soft (7psi) which leads to spiking during shifts. Without the quick spool my 7psi wastegate spring starts opening very early. I was also using a completely untouched timing map in the vacuum cells. Since I only use 93 I have room to advance the timing a couple of degrees.

Da1WiTsKiLz

And here is a pic of the downpipe with the ecutout mounted behind the engine. Please disregard my ugly oil pan.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Then get the UNI filter as ugly as it may be... anything other what you have. If you want to keep that turbocharger safe, then use a filter. Even minute grains of sand can reek havoc on the compressor wheel alone. You don't want me to show you the ugly examples of what happens when you don't, so....let's move on.


No. not any more than with what you already have. The turbocharger can only compressor air and excise exhaust gasses in a particular range based upon the amount of boost pressure used and efficiency of the cylinder head.

Now if you want a better quality material and fitment of the manifold in case you change turbochargers later, then yes, an inline Pro manifold will do fine.


then what's the point? Thinking that you have lower "compression" to work better? nah. If you're going to do a "forged bottom end" then get a FORGED BOTTOM END. Simply trying to sub out OEM for decent knock-off OEM isn't going to better your situation.


Now you're just showing you cards showing that you're really not sure of what it is you're doing. 1) the "quick spool" option is mediocre at best compared to other boost controller solutions both old and new on the market. I won't get into that right, NOW, but suffice it to say that simply having a 7psi spring has nothing to do with whether or not that feature will work. You're spiking because you or your "tuner" (which could be one in the same person) aren't tuning the car to higher ignition timing to reach your target boost first. Once you do that, then you can start fiddling with the fun stuff.

2nd, you're only at 7psi, in which you're not even CLOSE to an SC50's effective boost pressure range and efficiency. You can't make something work faster, if the turbocharger isn't even getting to proper rotational speed to allow the turbo to respond faster. That's like using a VTEC controller at 3500rpms, when there's no way the rest of the engine is even tuned with an aftermarket camshaft, and asking why it doesn't work.

Like I said, you're not thinking of this properly. the 7psi wastegate is SUPPOSED TO OPEN EARLY. If you have a 7psi spring, its opening closer to about 6.5 to 6.8psi, as that's the nature of the wastegate; to open early enough to not have an overboost condition.

You don't seem to understand the limits of actual 93octane, which can allow for that particular turbocharger to at least get closer to its threshold, (about 14-15psi) before trying to switch fuels. The issue is the stock block doesn't like the power level based upon what that boost pressure gives within that efficiency range. That's where the engine's pistons & ringlands may go down the tubes.

1. Get the car tuned first to knock threshold of the fuel you're using on either Laptop-based MAP through Hondata or hell, you can even use a manual boost controller to start.

2. Once its all done, only then can you have fun with the "quick spool" Hondata stuff. But for right now, you're putting the cart before the horse.


Time to get some additional help. Stop worrying about making MORE power, and just get the car to make SOME power first.

Dark_Teg

I spent a **** ton of money on a LS head and big cams years ago. Biggest mistake ever!!! VTEC FTW... A good ported head is great for boosted applications cause you can make the same power at a much lower PSI. My brothers Z31 went from making max power @21 psi down to 15 psi after extensive port work.

LightningTeg

Dont look bad honestly.

My first turbo setup ever, was able to fit one of those cheapo autozone filters in there



Then eventually I made a pipe for it







A nicer tubular log with my SC6152E



I think some 403s would help out the most at this point. If you are really trying to a whole lot more, your gonna need a bigger turbo

LightningTeg

Holy hell looking back...what a mess. But it worked haha

Dark_Teg

I thought it but wasn't going to type it.....Lol

Geis

Figured it would fly over someone's head, I was referring to the guy making 375whp
Your graph looks fine for the streets

Da1WiTsKiLz

I read bad reviews on the foam filters getting sucked into the turbo but now that its all together I will take another look.

Good. From looks alone the Blox manifold seems to check the boxes...but other comments in this thread suggest otherwise so I figured I'd ask.

no no no. The Nippon cast turbo pistons have the ringlands moved down so they aren't prone to breaking like the OEM pistons. Since they're cast the P2W clearance on a stock bore is not a concern. People are making 400+ with these. Either way, my point was VTEC head is not going on until I am ready to do something with the bottom end.

You can see what I mean about the ringlands here:



I think you misunderstood what I'm saying. I successfully used the quick spool on 2 older setups and it does its job. On this setup I was using a 7psi spring with Hondata boost control to hold 17psi (dyno graph is at 17psi). This required a high duty cycle and on shifts with a little bit of wheelspin or clutch slip the boost will spike. On a single gear pull it works fine with no spike.

With the boost control set for 17psi, the wastegate was starting to open down at 10 psi or less which is slowing spool between 10-17 PSI. I've logged and confirmed that it makes a 300-400rpm difference in a single gear pull but it would spike on aggressive shifts so I stopped using it. I tried a 15psi spring with less duty cycle with no other changes and it works perfectly but it was too much power for 1st gear so I pulled it back off for now.

Again, maybe I wasn't clear. I was still using the factory timing in the vacuum portion of the map which was intended for crap gas. Since I am strictly using 93 octane I have room to play with the off boost timing to get the boost to come on quicker. But to your second point, I am at 17psi now (dyno graph is at 17psi). I hope you didn't miss that in your previous posts =/

Da1WiTsKiLz

Ah. Coming from an 18G and a T04B with a .48 housing this is laggy.

Haha, Your collection of intake setups is impressive.

LightningTeg

Well there's 3 turbos and about 4 years worth of tinkering and learning things.

TheShodan

iTrader: (14)

Ok. As long as you're satisfied, that's what matters, but that's not what you stated earlier. Try to be a bit more concise if you want us to understand the dilemma for any assistance. You gave two completely different messages here.

I'll just stop saying anything at this point. You seem to have a bead on this, so good luck to you, and I'll simply keep reading.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

Playing around with timing will help some but most of that comes down to turbo sizing really.

Why a 7psi spring? Unless you run boost that low occasionally then moving to a stiffer spring will help with the spikes.

wantboost

iTrader: (2)

I guess I should further add that how the wastegate duty cycle map is tuned also has an effect on boost levels and spikes.

If you're running low duty cycle and as pressure builds suddenly run a large amount of duty cycle (or vice versa depending on setup) that sudden surge of pressure (over base spring pressure) can actually cause the boost to spike slightly since you're trying to get sudden rapid movement from the wastegate which it might not like

Also most of the time the map will be tuned so that the gate stays closed as long as possible for the fastest response, opening at the last second to prevent a boost pressure overrun. Sometimes though the ecu can think it's holding the gate open too long which will result in a pressure loss so the ecu might shut the gate a bit more momentarily which can cause spikes. Sadly the only real way to see this is with datalogging the actual movement of the wastegate valve itself.

Playing around with the duty cycle where you run into spikes the most will help as will running a stiffer spring since it will be less sensitive to slight changes in pressure vs wastegate valve movement.

boosted94gsr

This is how I set up my boost by gear/rpm. This gets me the quickest spool and traction in every year with a 6lb wg spring and I still hit 19psi no problem if I want to.

Da1WiTsKiLz

This is exactly what I've found.

With this turbo/mani/downpipe combo boost comes on quick with the quick spool enabled. By the time the wastegate sees boost pressure its too little too late. Tuning it less aggressively slows spool down. My solution is to swap in a 13psi and use less duty for better control. I tamed the internal wastegate on my old 18g with a fat helper spring so this should be simple.

I had a similar map when I used Neptune 4 or 5 years ago. Hondata has an automated solution for that. Outside of boost by gear and boost by rpm there is a separate table for quick spool which lets you fill in a boost threshold for each gear. Before this threshold, the ebc will dump all boost pressure away from the wastegate (ie. 100% duty cycle or 0% duty cycle) so it sees as little boost as possible. After this threshold the ebc goes back to its normal function (ie. 50% duty cycle).

It essentially does the same thing that you have on your boost/rpm map but it's automated and works at every RPM.

Its the last table at the bottom:

B20VtecVillain

Hondata certainly has some awesome features for boosted setups these days indeed. I'm running the latest version of S300 on my turbo B20V setup and it has worked fantastically. Granted I am not a tuner (yet) and I did not do the full tune on my setup, however I have been playing with a lot of the features and doing a lot of research and it's truly a great system. My setup was a new venture for me (~12.3:1 comp + boost) so I didn't want to do it myself, but the Hondata software has everything i needed to make it run well and actually put the power down. Making ~450whp/320wtq at only 13.5 psi using 93 E10 pump + race gas additive. Best part is with BBG I can actually make it I hook! Stock B20 sleeves and the fear that creates have prevented me from turning up the wick anymore since I'm looking to sell it all and don't want to thrash it, but based on my results I could easily add more timing and boost and make 500+ on the same fuel. Still stock ignition too. Recently crossed over to the K side and the B is just sitting for sale so I won't ever go that far, but this far it seems Kpro is also excellent software as well. Though my K is not boosted, it's NA. For now anyway. (13.5:1 88x99 K24a2 w/4Piston Pro 156 head package)

B and B

iTrader: (3)

Damn...what turbo?

B20VtecVillain

12:1 84.5x89 B20b block
4Piston CNCd B16a2 head w/ Supertech valve train, SK2 Pro1 cams, SK2 Ultra 3.5L manifold with small spacer.
Turbo kit is a Full Race Pro Street kit with GTx3076r. Tial WG & BOV. Full Race 3" down pipe & dump. Made 448/317 @ 13.5-14psi with fairly warm air. (75-80F)
Fuel is Shell 93 E10 with 3oz "Race Gas" per gallon.

Geis

Yeah I'm pretty jealous... fellow b20 (about to be) booster checking in

B20VtecVillain

Cool man. Good luck with the build! This is probably my favorite setup this far. I've had the same base build for almost 4 years and changed a lot of parts along the way, went from NA to boost etc. Recently I put it into an EG hatch with plans to sell. My EM1 is getting a nasty all motor K24. After reading this thread though, I have some new respect for LS builds. Seriously considering throwing together a simple piston/rod B18a/b with a small turbo, and having a quick spooling autoXer. I'm just getting into that realm of racing myself so I'm still a n00b, but my current vehicle just doesn't have any aftermarket support to make power. (2005 Mazda SP23) Thing handles great and is a very stout chassis, but I've spent $1500 so far trying to squeeze some more power out of it and it's still slow lol. I also want to get experience in some other forms of track racing, but on the straights this thing would get eaten alive. Even a stock motor boosted LS would run circles around me power wise.
(2900#s, 156hp/152tq and that's with Injen intake, Vibrant header, TruBenz 2.5" cat back with Magnaflow HF cat and Muffler, Godspeed Intake manifold, BS delete kit, Dynotronics/MazdaEdit tuned. Stock was like 130/128)
Honda power FTW!

Geis

Hey thanks man!
And btw about the mazda 3 awwww really man? I LOVE those cars, all the generations hatchback and sedans...the 2nd gen took a while to grow on me but I've seen some mean looking tuned ones...that's kinda disappointing to hear though, even though I'm assuming you're up from 130bhp to 156 whp.. that should be like 40-50 hp gained but I would expect more from a 2.3 definitely. I'll still probably get my hands on one and tune it anyways, but yeah man I'm so used to the ridiculous things our honda engines can do that it quite frankly makes other car engines look pretty shitty lmao.
P.S
You could always boost the mazda instead lol... and yeah b18s are great and all but if you are talking about small turbo auto Xer I would think that you would want a b20 for even more low end torque, especially seeing how you came from a b20 :D

B20VtecVillain

I do love displacement, that's why I went with the B20V build in the first place but to be honest even at 84.5mm these stock sleeves have always been a fear of mine. That's why I've never pushed the limits of my turbo any farther. Especially now that I'm looking to possibly sell the setup to fund the K. As for the Mazda though, mines a 2005 Sedan, so first generation. It looks decent, is very well optioned and Handles great, even stock. Power however is just not there. The factory 5 speed has very close gears, so it "feels" quick, but it doesn't have any thrust. Even with my bolt ons a stock RSX S will almost pull me in the top end. Midrange and low end is where this thing shines, so it's got enough grunt for the low speed but above 4500-5000 it's pretty dull. I have a full 2.5 block out of a 2010 Ford Fusion in my shop, and the plan is to eventually switch over my 2.3 head/cams/VTC components to the 2.5 shortblock and pick up some power that way. Just hasn't been a priority lately. I have considered turbocharging it as well, but I don't really want to build the block yet and stock I have heard people grenading at under 300whp. Damn Hondas got me spoiled indeed.

Da1WiTsKiLz

The K24 build with the right transmission will be a very quick car. Even with the amount of torque my car is making, my friend's K series DB7 (full RSX-S swap) stays exactly side by side from a roll. Nothing can beat 9k RPM with 6 short gears. The low gear traction on his setup makes up for the better top end power of a turbo b series. If I had a vtec head with another 1000+ RPM to play with it would be a different story.