vladd

i got the stock tires on my civic rotated today, one of the tires has a chunk that's peeled back on the sidewall from curbing and they didn't rotate that tire. is there no way to remount that tire or something? i want to double check before calling the tire place.

TunerN00b

If it were my tire (and I'm cheap), I'd cut off the flap to prevent anything from catching it, and continue using the tire (assuming it could be balanced and holds air). But thats me...

And you don't need to remount tires to rotate. You rotate the wheels with the tires on them.

vladd

i've been using the tire; i actually bought the car with this already on it and i've put about 6k on it since buying it.

i went to rotate the tires today, and yes they do dismount the tires to rotate them. that way you don't get the tire wear where the inside is all worn out with the outside looking like new. it looked like the other 3 were dismounted as there are grooves in the dust on the sidewalls. this is the only wheel where it's obvious the tire hasn't been taken off the wheel.

nsxtasy

TunerN00b is correct; tires are normally rotated from one corner to another on the car by moving them from corner to corner with the wheels, so they don't have to be re-mounted and re-balanced.

If your tires are not wearing evenly from outer edge to inner edge, you can "flip" them on the rim halfway through their lifespan; this is commonly done with track tires, since racetrack use, with its heavy cornering forces, results in extra wear along the outer edge of the tire.

However, street tires used on the street should wear evenly from the outer edge to the inner edge. If they are not wearing evenly, instead of (or in addition to) flipping them, I recommend trying to fix the problem that is causing the uneven wear. Uneven wear can result from improper alignment (usually toe) and/or from a suspension problem (blown shocks, worn or shot bushings, bent tie rod or control arm, shot ball joint, etc). So I recommend aligning your car and also having a close inspection of the suspension.

nsxtasy

See above. Normally, tires are rotated without dismounting/remounting them on the rims. However, it's clear from his description that he was referring to dismounting and remounting them. Dismounting and remounting the tires on the rims is commonly called "flipping" rather than "rotating", although if you also change which corner the tires are on when you put the wheel back on the car, that would be considered rotating.

nsxtasy

I know, we were both thinking and saying the same thing at the same time. Must be telepathy.

vladd

since somebody was kind enough to delete my post, i'll put it up again:

i haven't seen any unusual wear on the tires, i just wanted to rotate them to extend the tire life. car drives normal and all that. so you're telling me that 'rotating tires' consists of moving the wheels around on the car? i always thought that 'rotating tires' meant taking the tires off the wheels and moving in an X pattern across the car. most hondas i've seen get camber wear, even with stock suspension, so it seems like it'd make sense to actually dismount the tires so the tire will wear evenly.

vladd

i know. this has already been mentioned in this thread. that doesn't solve the problem of camber wear.

nsxtasy

"Camber wear" is a misnomer, because it is usually caused by your alignment's toe being screwed up, not the camber. The best way to deal with it is to get an alignment. Also check for other suspension problems.

Fix the problem, don't treat the symptom (which is what you're doing when you flip the tires).

vladd

there are no problems with my car. it's 100% fine. call it what you want, but if the car is set up with negative camber from the factory then the inside of the tire will wear faster than the outside. in order to get the max life out of my tires i want to wear them evenly. i always thought that rotating tires involved actually taking them off the wheels. it doesn't seem like simply moving the wheels around on the car will do any good.

again, my alignment is just fine. it really is. if it makes you feel better, i did get the alignment checked when i got the car, just to be sure.

nsxtasy

Absolutely NOT true.

It evens out the wear as long as the car is in good working condition.

If the outside edge of your tires is wearing faster than the inside edge of your tires, then there is something wrong with your car. Period. But if you don't want to try to track down the cause of the problem, and you want to move the tires around instead, go right ahead - it's your car, you can do whatever you want with it.

vladd

ok, learn me. how does having negative camber not wear out the inside faster? i never said that the outside is wearing out faster, i said the inside.

nsxtasy

It doesn't. I know, people think that it does, because they have a mental picture of a partially sideways tire rolling down the road. But the fact is, even with slight negative camber, the entire width of the tire tread is coming into contact with the road, with relatively even forces. Toe, OTOH, is much more likely to cause uneven tire wear like you describe, because it means that instead of the tire rolling exactly straight ahead, it's rolling at an angle (racers and tire experts call this the "slip angle") so there is more friction with the road, and it results in uneven wear.

I have a car which eats rear tires, but they wear perfectly evenly, even though I keep it aligned to the factory spec, which has negative camber. I can even reduce the amount of tire wear by reducing the amount of toe, although that also makes the handling less precise, which is why I stick with the factory spec.

How much negative camber does the factory alignment for your Civic specify? And how much toe does it specify? What were the actual readings when you had it aligned? And how long ago was that? Alignments can change over time - most commonly as a result of hitting potholes, road debris, etc - so if it was done a while ago, it's possible you need it again. And it's still a good idea to have the entire suspension checked out when it's up on the lift.

Another possible problem is who did the alignment. A lot of tire shops do alignments, and many of them don't have experienced mechanics who know what to look for in the alignment and the suspension. You need a mechanic who's really experienced with suspensions. Sometimes you'll find one in a tire shop, but more often you'll have better luck asking around and finding a really good independent mechanic.

Alignments are not usually all that expensive - an hour of labor is usually more than enough. If you haven't had the alignment in the past six months, I'd get another one. And if you don't have the utmost confidence in the place that did your previous one, you might choose another shop, just to get a second opinion. If you have the printout from your previous alignment, you might want to bring it with you to show them.

vladd

there aren't any problems with my car, i've said it before and i'll say it as many times as necessary. i had an alignment done 4 months ago and everything was within spec after. the only reason i wanted to rotate my tires was to extend their life as much as possible, not because there's something wrong.

so i'm having a hard time believing that with negative camber the tire still sits flat on the road. that just doesn't make any sense, as the wheel itself is at an angle. if the tire IS "squashed" flat by the weight of the car, wouldn't the inside of the tire have more downward pressure on it than the outside? with more downward pressure on the inside there will be more friction between the tire and road, leading to greater wear on the inside. am i missing something here?

i'm still not seeing how simply moving the wheels around on the car helps with tire wear. any explanations?

nsxtasy

NO. If the tires are inflated to 33 pounds per square inch, that is the downward pressure across the entire area of the tire that comes into contact with the road.

True. In fact, on most front-wheel-drive cars, the front tires wear faster than the rear tires. However, they normally wear evenly across the width of the tread.

vladd

so should i "flip" the tires once i lower my car and increase the negative camber, or will it not make a difference?

nsxtasy

My previous point was not to oppose the idea of "flipping" the tires, only that it doesn't really address the cause of the uneven tire wear, it only deals with the symptom by distributing it evenly. By all means, I would leave the three tires alone - i.e. the three that have already been flipped, because the uneven tire wear will indeed even out. The fourth tire, I don't know; I can understand the shop not wanting to flip the tire so you can keep an eye on the chunk of sidewall, but I'd probably ask them to flip the fourth one too.