<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by teg_95 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">ok good</TD></TR></TABLE>You can assume it won't benefit from it but it's difficult to know unless you try it out for yourself. Generally if your car is running fine as it is on the fuel you've got, you'll probably not notice or see a difference. Does that vehicle have a knock sensor? If not and it's running fine on the fuel you've got, then it's far more unlikely to improve much of anything unless you've got a turbo in which case it would fix the detonation you'd be getting. If it has a knock sensor then I'd don't see the issue in trying but if your car is already running fine and is relatively stock then I wouldn't expect miracles if anything at all.

 

Toluene - Octane Booster FAQ common ingredient in Octane Boosters in a can. ... Here is an article on "Rocket fuel" for our cars.

Rocket fuel" for our cars http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html

DIY Octane Booster http://members.***.net/gmareng...r.htm

Toluene paint thinner is one major component of octane boosters due to its high octane http://www.mazdarotaryclub.com...=4865

Q: Why bother to boost octane at all since my engine can run just fine on lower octane fuel? ......A: For a high compression engine to run on low octane fuel.....http://www.gnttype.org/techarea/misc...explained.html and http://home.san.rr.com/noclownz/racegas.htm


F1-Rocket Fuel and DIY Octane Boosters http://members.rennlist.com/95....html Also the toxicity of xylene and toluene is actually lower than gasoline (due to their stable ring-structures):
Toxicity Profile: Toluene - http://rais.ornl.gov/tox/profi...shtml
Toxicity Profile: Xylene - http://rais.ornl.gov/tox/profi...shtml

Just be very careful using these chemicals , have fun blending " cocktail mixers " your own fuel additives for race application.

cheers

 

so how much cheaper is it actually to make your own?

 

Teg_95 , You will have to do your homework and find out the prices for the chemicals needed. Dilution and the range of octane booster required will govern the cost also. Depending on the batch size you mix up.

price of toluene ?
price of transmission fluid ?
price of mineral spirits ?


http://members.***.net/gmareng...r.htm
MAKE YOUR OWN OCTANE BOOST
How to make your own octane booster (this is the basic formula of
one of the popular octane booster products). To make eight 16 ounce
bottles (128 oz = 1 gal):
100 oz of toulene for octane boost
25 oz of mineral spirits (cleaning agent)
3 oz of transmission fluid (lubricating agent)

This product is advertised as "octane booster with cleaning agent
*and* lubricating agent!". Diesel fuel or kerosene can be substituted
for mineral spirits and light turbine oil can be substituted for
transmission fluid. Color can be added with petroleum dyes.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FPV_GTp &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Teg_95 , You will have to do your homework and find out the prices for the chemicals needed. Dilution and the range of octane booster required will govern the cost also. Depending on the batch size you mix up.

price of toluene ?
price of transmission fluid ?
price of mineral spirits ?


http://members.***.net/gmareng...r.htm
MAKE YOUR OWN OCTANE BOOST
How to make your own octane booster (this is the basic formula of
one of the popular octane booster products). To make eight 16 ounce
bottles (128 oz = 1 gal):
100 oz of toulene for octane boost
25 oz of mineral spirits (cleaning agent)
3 oz of transmission fluid (lubricating agent)

This product is advertised as "octane booster with cleaning agent
*and* lubricating agent!". Diesel fuel or kerosene can be substituted
for mineral spirits and light turbine oil can be substituted for
transmission fluid. Color can be added with petroleum dyes.

</TD></TR></TABLE>
thanks very helpful

 

Also lets not forget that one of the benefits of using higher octane fuels is you can increase your ignition timing. Stock honda timing is 16* +/- 2*

This timing I believe is accpetable with 87 octane fuel, increase timing to 18-20* and you will gain slightly more power/torque and better MPG but you will now need to run 93 octane to prevent detonation. Only true way to find the "sweet spot" of timing for any given car is on a chassis dyno. Keep raising the timing until you see power/torque fall off.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turbodcxbro &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Also lets not forget that one of the benefits of using higher octane fuels is you can increase your ignition timing. Stock honda timing is 16* +/- 2*

This timing I believe is accpetable with 87 octane fuel, increase timing to 18-20* and you will gain slightly more power/torque and better MPG but you will now need to run 93 octane to prevent detonation. Only true way to find the "sweet spot" of timing for any given car is on a chassis dyno. Keep raising the timing until you see power/torque fall off. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Hi turbodcxbro , this will yield more power and torque , but bear in mind the car manufactures build in these timing curves and air/fuel maps for a purpose to make sure 100% detonation doesn't occur. Not all detonation is audible , the silent detonation can cause engine damage over a long period of time of the engines running cycle.

<U>So Vehicle manufactures are very conservative in the amount of ignition through the RPM range of the engine to wide open throttle.</U>

The same applies with the air/fuel ratio , ideally the air/fuel ratio burns at stoichiometric ratio , 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio at light throttle cruise and as you press the throttle further down the mixture strength is made richer up to on some passenger vehicles as far as 10:1 air/fuel ratio again this is the manufacture of that engine putting in a safety margin in to prevent detonation.

Nearly all motor vehicles that I have put on a chassis dyno and just check where the fuel settings are they, are the engine is extremely on the rich side as low as 10:1 air/fuel ratio on a normally aspiarted engine.

One can actually make a statement and say our everyday passenger vehicle engines are not tune 100% for maximum horse power and torque.

That is when fine tuning a engine the air/fuel ratio and ignition timing maps are adjusted for that purpose high performance use ( Maximum horse power and torque ).

Different engines have different characteristics and demands on what is the correct ignition timing and air/fuel ratio for maximum horse power and torque.

Some reading material on theory a stoichiometric mixture has just enough air to completely burn the available fuel. ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio

http://home.netcom.com/~cmathe....html

Modified by FPV_GTp at 4:30 PM 8/15/2008


Modified by FPV_GTp at 4:32 PM 8/15/2008

 

Poor fuel quality at the bowser

Also here in Australia the bigger company owned sites gasoline filling stations all sell different rating octane fuels at the bowser.

The smaller independent gasoline filling stations all sell different rating octane fuels at the bowser.

It is amazing you test a vehicle with a well known reputable companies fuel and no detonation occurs on the vehicle and then run the same test with someone else's fuel and detraction occurs .

So it is not unreasonable to assume the someone is selling poor fuel quality and saying it has a advertised octane rating lets say X but in actual fact it is X-5.

There is a lot of poor fuel quality out there in the market place. The fuel market is a extremely competitive market place and everyone is competing for you dollar , so if you chase the cheapest fuel filling station just think for a second. So buyer beware one may think he/she is actually pay for high octane fuel at the boswer and not actually getting what they have paid for.

Some more reading material

between the refinery and fuel bowser. Oil Industry manufacturing ... have been developed under the Fuel Quality Standards .............. http://www.environment.gov.au/...4.pdf


PULP? Diesel? LPG? The choices can be confusing. NRMA's senior environmental advisor, Jack Haley, surveys the options and explores recent developments in car and fuel technology ........ http://www.openroad.com.au/mot...e.asp

cheers

 

if you are tuned on a 91 oct, 89 or 87.. and you go with a higher octane you run a bitch richer. so basically if your vehicle calls for regular unleaded gas and you go premium you are basically running richer and have slow small amounts of pre-ignition, detonation , wrong explosion times.. whatever

which will make carbon build up and raising your compression. which basically down the road you will eventually need that higher octane

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohsnapzafingcu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you are tuned on a 91 oct, 89 or 87.. and you go with a higher octane you run a bitch richer. so basically if your vehicle calls for regular unleaded gas and you go premium you are basically running richer and have slow small amounts of pre-ignition, detonation , wrong explosion times.. whatever

which will make carbon build up and raising your compression. which basically down the road you will eventually need that higher octane</TD></TR></TABLE>
so if i ran 93 oct when it called for 87 for about 2 months would it be ok to go back to 87 with out bumping the timing or whatever?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by inspyral &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">The article is essentially correct. You don't gain any direct performance benefit with higher octane fuel, it just has a higher resistance to pre-ignition or detonation than lower octane ratings(octane rates resistance to burning, not energy potential). Any increase in fuel mileage associated with running higher octane fuel than recommended can usually be attributed to changes in driving style, which alone can affect fuel economy by up to 20-30%, rather than the fuel itself. Actually, running a higher octane rating than needed results in a less complete burn, and therefore higher emissions since the combustion process isn't burning all the fuel in the cylinder. As such, your last assumption is also inaccurate, since most people will run lower octane fuel prior to emissions/SMOG testing.</TD></TR></TABLE>
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by imzjustplayin &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

You are absolutely wrong. Just read this thread and my replies: http://genmay.com/showthread.php?t=793451

</TD></TR></TABLE>

im afraid he is totally correct. and you are wrong.

 

hi

Carbon build-up on the top of the crown of the piston is a indication of several things , i.e. oil burning in combustion chamber , extremely rich fuel mixture and so on.

As far a oil burner the air/fuel ratio is being dilute in the combustion chamber poor performance

As far as a extremely rich air fuel ratio in the combustion chamber again poor performance and it a waste of fuel ( burn a hole in the hip pocket )

As far as raising the compression ratio mmmmmmmmmmmmmm very minimal and if the engine was tuned correctly and in good mechanical condition there should be very little or no carbon build-up on the piston crown.

I must once again explain there are many forms of detonation , some examples lean air/fuel ratio mixture , incorrect ignition timing settings , cylinder fill favouring poor inlet manifold design , over heating coolant passages and hot spots , carbon build-up on piston crown and localized hot spots , poor fuel quality , incorrect fuel octane for a specific compression ratio , in coming air temperature charge , incorrect final drive gear ratios causing the engine to labour along and the list goes on.....


Again putting higher octane fuel in a low compression engine will not make more power.

The everyday bowser fuels that have a octane rating from lows 80 to high 90's ROM will not influence the air/fuel ratio in a engine. The same air/fuel ratio will be required for the same engine whether you use 87 or 93 octane rating fuel.

The same ignition timing maps if set correctly for the same engine will be the same for both fuels octane ratings 87 to 93.

If there is detonation I would be checking other items on the engine design that maybe causing detonation.



OK methanol has a extremely high octane rating try running this as a fuel in you low compression engine and lets see what would happen ?????



Masking a problem fix by adding higher octane fuel maybe a fix for some people but not all people.

Ignition Timing Theory & Background............ http://www.giant.net.au/users/...d.htm
http://www.giant.net.au/users/...g.htm

http://www.circletrack.com/how....html

Ignition timing in an internal combustion engine is the process of setting the time that a spark will occur in the combustion chamber (during the power stroke) relative to piston position and crankshaft angular velocity...... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing

needs to be ignited earlier to achieve maximum pressure at the same ... Cylinder http://www.boosttown.com/engin...g.php

Bristol Dyno technical article - ignition timing ..... http://www.bristoldyno.com/tech/ignitiontiming.htm

http://www.tvu.com/PSCylTEngweb.htm

ignited at the correct time, maximum pressure in the cylinder will occur ... timing advance for a given engine speed will allow for maximum cylinder pressure .... http://en.wikivisual.com/index.php/Ignition_timing

AutoSpeed - Getting the Ignition Timing Right .... http://autospeed.com/cms/A_109132/article.html

a maximum cylinder pressure (and work output) ... ignition 20 degrees after tdc will result in an even smaller maximum cylinder http://www.princeton.edu/~humc...0.htm

Effects of Ignition Timing, Equivalence Ratio and Compression ...Ignition Timing (°BTDC) Exhaust Temperature (K) 1000. 2000. 3000. 4000. In ... It is interesting to note that the maximum in-cylinder peak pressure occurs at a ...
http://rescomp.stanford.edu/~e...e.pdf

Today internal combustion engines in cars, trucks, motorcycles, construction machinery .....Four-stroke engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four-stroke_cycle

cheers

 

http://kitkat.wvu.edu:8080/files/259/thesis.pdf ............. develop a plot of cylinder pressure verses volume. By integrating this curve, ... driven by the crankshaft so that it is known at exactly what crank ...

http://somender-singh.com/content/view/14/27/ Limitations & Thresholds of Combustion in
Internal Combustion Engines ......... The basic ingredients needed to achieve “Combustion” in any I C engine are, Oxygenated air along with a blend of Fuel which needs to be compressed appropriately within the cylinder and ignited. The next fastest thing ever happening inside http://www.somender-singh.com/limitations.htm

Combustion Data Acquisition and Analysis .... http://www.xarin.com/files/FinalProjectReport.pdf

http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110204/article.html Different Variable Compression Approaches
There are a number of different mechanical approaches that are being explored to vary engine CR. These can be grouped in the following categories


Data Acquisition & Analysis Software .... http://www.landinst.com/combus...s.htm


http://www.eng-tips.com/viewth...age=1

REVelation Software - High Performance Acquisition and Engine Combustion Analysis...... http://www.hi-techniques.com/revelation.htm

Fuels & Info
Ignition timing Humidity. Combustion chamber shape Barometric pressure ... which helps speed up the burning and limits the amount of time available for pre ... http://www.ozsuperkart.net/TechArticles/Fuels.htm


AutoSpeed - Changing the Squeeze
This means the CR and ignition timing detonation limits that apply at wide open ... This alters the volume of the combustion chamber, and so the compression ratio. ... http://autospeed.com/cms/A_110204/article.html http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_2264/article.html


Quasiturbine Problematic - HCCI Homogeneous Charge Compression ...
... threshold mode was not reliable and knocking (photo-detonation) came ... of HCCI (which focus on ignition and not the combustion), photo-detonation ... http://quasiturbine.promci.qc.....html

Detonation... Under normal conditions, the combusting air and fuel mixture inside the combustion chamber ignites in a controlled manner. The mixture is ignited by the spark, normally in the centre of the cylinder, and a flame front moves from ....http://www.progl.com/General/detonation.htm

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by teg_95 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
so if i ran 93 oct when it called for 87 for about 2 months would it be ok to go back to 87 with out bumping the timing or whatever?</TD></TR></TABLE>

usually it should be alright.. i mean stock motors usually will last through this kind of stuff..


also, if you are running rich, you are pretty much wasting money on the higher octane, and you are slowly 'washing' your piston rings away. ( the fuel cleans out the oil on the cylinder walls to lube the rings) but you usually wouldn't see a REAL noticeable difference in a few tanks. but it will affect long term life down the road..

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohsnapzafingcu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

usually it should be alright.. i mean stock motors usually will last through this kind of stuff..


also, if you are running rich, you are pretty much wasting money on the higher octane, and you are slowly 'washing' your piston rings away. ( the fuel cleans out the oil on the cylinder walls to lube the rings) but you usually wouldn't see a REAL noticeable difference in a few tanks. but it will affect long term life down the road..</TD></TR></TABLE>
ok, because ive been keeping up with this thread and i got the hint that it wasnt doing anything besides hurting my wallet, so i just wanted to make sure that i didnt get to deep in to turn around.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by teg_95 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
ok, because ive been keeping up with this thread and i got the hint that it wasnt doing anything besides hurting my wallet, so i just wanted to make sure that i didnt get to deep in to turn around.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yup! it runs better and you save gas

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ohsnapzafingcu &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yup! it runs better and you save gas </TD></TR></TABLE>
thanks