Hybrid96EK

Or am I the only one having problems with this new fuel?

turbociviccoupe

new fuel?

is it every gas station or one in particular?

BoOsTiN Dc2

new fuel?? i havent heard of anything about that.

Hybrid96EK

Yeah. It says on the pumps they have added more ethenol (I think is what it said) to the gas. I've had some "pinging" issues since last week when I noticed it. Mechanic friend of mine also reports increase at his shop in cars with "mis fires" this past week as well... just wondering if anyone else has had issues with it.

dude_123

It's not new fuel, it's winter-grade fuel. More ethanol is added to help aid in a more complete combustion. Dense air does not burn well so with ethanol added to the fuel it will produce more oxygen to aid in combustion.
Winter-grade fuel will also give you lower gas milage and since it contains more ethanol using it during the warm weather season will cause stalling and hard start. California and other pollution control state is stuck with the super clean, shitty performance, high priced Reformulated Gasoline (RFG) and this term fits well "You get what you pay for."

0xenocron

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Yeah. It says on the pumps they have added more ethenol (I think is what it said) to the gas. I've had some "pinging" issues since last week when I noticed it. Mechanic friend of mine also reports increase at his shop in cars with "mis fires" this past week as well... just wondering if anyone else has had issues with it. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Added ethanol actually increases your detonation threshold. Maybe you are misfiring and not detonating...

In a lot of area that are typical polution spots, they will run 10% ethanol year round, generally most gas is about 3% ethanol during the summer months.

Hybrid96EK

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xenocron &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

Added ethanol actually increases your detonation threshold. Maybe you are misfiring and not detonating...

In a lot of area that are typical polution spots, they will run 10% ethanol year round, generally most gas is about 3% ethanol during the summer months.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Its possible that its a misfire. The strange thing is this car has been running perfectly for about 5 months under boost. I haven't had to touch or do anything. The other day I rotated the tires and then cleaned the dist cap contacts. Since then, this problem has been giving me hell. I changed the cap even to one that I had that was less worn, same thing. Nothing seems to help. I pulled 4 degrees of timing off the map last night as a last resort, STILL had problems. Very pronouced, very loud, mainly noticeable in 3rd gear in the upper rpms. Sounds like someone is hitting the block with a hammer very quickly.

I put in the wideband just to confirm I wasn't starving for fuel... A/F ratios are still spot on.. 11.8-12.0 like they should be.


Modified by Hybrid93Eg at 7:21 AM 1/6/2007

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hybrid93Eg &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Its possible that its a misfire. The strange thing is this car has been running perfectly for about 5 months under boost. I haven't had to touch or do anything. The other day I rotated the tires and then cleaned the dist cap contacts. Since then, this problem has been giving me hell. I changed the cap even to one that I had that was less worn, same thing. Nothing seems to help. I pulled 4 degrees of timing off the map last night as a last resort, STILL had problems. Very pronouced, very loud, mainly noticeable in 3rd gear in the upper rpms. Sounds like someone is hitting the block with a hammer very quickly.

I put in the wideband just to confirm I wasn't starving for fuel... A/F ratios are still spot on.. 11.8-12.0 like they should be.


Modified by Hybrid93Eg at 7:21 AM 1/6/2007</TD></TR></TABLE>
is it a popping sound or kind of a bb's in a can sound. Detonation and misfires sound very different. I'm leaning more towards it being a misfire.

turbociviccoupe

i put new gas in my car last night and it ran fine. i always pump chevron. someone said they were only dispensing more ethanol at 76.

RedEj8

Dont you have to add a ton more fuel if you are using ethanol/gas over just straight gas? (having to do with the tune)

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RedEj8 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Dont you have to add a ton more fuel if you are using ethanol/gas over just straight gas? (having to do with the tune)</TD></TR></TABLE>
Yes you do, but with these low mixes of ethanol and gas it hasn't shown me hardly any afr swings where i'm at. They recently switched to 10% ethanol here at all pumps. I'm guessing the previous mixture wasn't far from that so afr's didn't change much.

Hybrid96EK

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
is it a popping sound or kind of a bb's in a can sound. Detonation and misfires sound very different. I'm leaning more towards it being a misfire.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Sounds more like BB's in a can... like someone is taping something on my block. I'm pretty sure its detonation... however, removing 3 degrees from the top map did nothing for it. Never had a problem until I cleaned the dist cap and replaced the coil spring.

SOHC_MShue

hmm weird

blinx9900

im getting nervous here, shitty gas getting shittier, im boosting with 10.8 cr (car hits the road as soon as everying gets back from gettin coated)

0xenocron

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Yes you do, but with these low mixes of ethanol and gas it hasn't shown me hardly any afr swings where i'm at. They recently switched to 10% ethanol here at all pumps. I'm guessing the previous mixture wasn't far from that so afr's didn't change much. </TD></TR></TABLE>

you have to remember too that unmodified cars have closed loop control and most modified honda turbo cars do not. Factory vehicles have enough short and long term fuel trim tolerances to make up for that difference and only loose a mpg or 2 during the winter blend season

wait it was friggen 70 here yesterday! what winter?

0Synapse Motorsport

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by xenocron &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

you have to remember too that unmodified cars have closed loop control and most modified honda turbo cars do not. Factory vehicles have enough short and long term fuel trim tolerances to make up for that difference and only loose a mpg or 2 during the winter blend season

wait it was friggen 70 here yesterday! what winter?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Seriously I might need to open up a surf shop in Albany, Ny soon

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">im getting nervous here, shitty gas getting shittier, im boosting with 10.8 cr (car hits the road as soon as everying gets back from gettin coated)</TD></TR></TABLE>
have you read what people said? The increase in ethanol percentage decreases your chances of detonation.

blinx9900

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by SOHC_MShue &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
have you read what people said? The increase in ethanol percentage decreases your chances of detonation.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah read it, but then when summer time comes if got it tuned in winter... see where im going with this?

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by blinx9900 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">yeah read it, but then when summer time comes if got it tuned in winter... see where im going with this?</TD></TR></TABLE>
it really depends on how much % they put in during the summer. Like i said i didn't see any real af changes when they switched over here.

havok hybrid

Change your spark plugs. Set the gap smaller then you normaly would.. See if that clears your miss fire up.*.

Hybrid96EK

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by havok hybrid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Change your spark plugs. Set the gap smaller then you normaly would.. See if that clears your miss fire up.*. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Gap is already at .32. I don't think thats it. Gap hasn't changed and it was working fine like that for 4 months... If the plugs were bad, the issue would be apparent 24.7... not only getting worse as it warms. Current plugs have less then 4k on them.

poop II

You say that you are seeing 11.8-12.0 afr. Yes, but keep in mind that the stoich for ethanol is 9:1 and 14.7 for that of petrol. So, with a 10% blend, you are essentially(but not literally) running a few points leaner compared to a 3% blend. Yes, the afr is the same, but the stoich has changed from 14.53(3%) to 14.13. There are those that will say that the higher octane level of ethanol will offset the requirement for more fuel, but this seems not to be the case.
If you search various forums, you will find a tread like this, regarding issues with the 10% blend in open loop systems, in just about every one. Most cars are okay, some are not. A local mechanic has run a stockish 1679 in a street buggy(I'm an aircooled vw guy) for years with no issue. He said that the first time he ever filled with the 10% blend, he was detonating all over the place. He pulled the plugs to find them snow white. A switch back to the regular gas and a spark plug replacement returned the car to normal with brown plugs . I have not noticed similar results with my cars, though of course they are quite conservative- stock 6.6:1 comp. bug and a 7.5:1 turbo bug on 8psi and a high 10 afr(will have more boost with meth inj. and more aggressive fueling for '07).

SOHC_MShue

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by poop II &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">You say that you are seeing 11.8-12.0 afr. Yes, but keep in mind that the stoich for ethanol is 9:1 and 14.7 for that of petrol. So, with a 10% blend, you are essentially(but not literally) running a few points leaner compared to a 3% blend. Yes, the afr is the same, but the stoich has changed from 14.53(3%) to 14.13. There are those that will say that the higher octane level of ethanol will offset the requirement for more fuel, but this seems not to be the case.
If you search various forums, you will find a tread like this, regarding issues with the 10% blend in open loop systems, in just about every one. Most cars are okay, some are not. A local mechanic has run a stockish 1679 in a street buggy(I'm an aircooled vw guy) for years with no issue. He said that the first time he ever filled with the 10% blend, he was detonating all over the place. He pulled the plugs to find them snow white. A switch back to the regular gas and a spark plug replacement returned the car to normal with brown plugs . I have not noticed similar results with my cars, though of course they are quite conservative- stock 6.6:1 comp. bug and a 7.5:1 turbo bug on 8psi and a high 10 afr(will have more boost with meth inj. and more aggressive fueling for '07). </TD></TR></TABLE>
If he didn't change the settings on his wideband then it is still set to read gas afr's. O2 sensors read out in lambda and then convert that number to afr. So because his wideband is setup to interpret 1.0 lambda as 14.7 afr then this shouldn't matter. If you were running straight ethanol with these settings on the wideband the afr's could be 9:1 which would read out as 1.0 lambda and the wideband would still show 14.7

poop II

Correct. Funny thing is, the wideband measuring lambda thing is something that I have realized for quite some time. I have'nt had a brain fart of this calibre for.... a few hours. However, fact is, this fuel does strange things to some cars. Hir problem may be totally unrelated, yet the different fuel could definatly be the culprit. A change back to a blend with less eth would determine if the issue is fuel related or no.

Hybrid96EK

Got it fixed guys. Problem turned out to be a loose ground wire on the tranny side causing low voltage to the dist. Once I got that corrected, I opened the gap back up to .35 and it runs like a champ. MUCH smoother I might add also.