Using higher octane fuel than recommended
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Re: (imzjustplayin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by imzjustplayin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">But even vehicles that do not necessarily knock on lower octane fuel and the manual says "87 recommended", it does not mean they're incapable of benefitting from higher octane fuel. This point was already explained in the thread I linked to. </TD></TR></TABLE>
It was explained by you, and you used your own uncontrolled experiment to "prove" it. I foolishly ran a tank of 93 when I first got my car, and I noticed absolutely no change in performance or mileage. Does that mean I've disproved your explanation?
It was explained by you, and you used your own uncontrolled experiment to "prove" it. I foolishly ran a tank of 93 when I first got my car, and I noticed absolutely no change in performance or mileage. Does that mean I've disproved your explanation?
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B*a*n*n*e*d
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Re: (ddd4114)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ddd4114 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">It was explained by you, and you used your own uncontrolled experiment to "prove" it. I foolishly ran a tank of 93 when I first got my car, and I noticed absolutely no change in performance or mileage. Does that mean I've disproved your explanation?</TD></TR></TABLE>
What do you mean you "noticed no change"? Are you saying you drove around and then said, "hmm seems like the same to me!"? Or did you scientifically evaluate the differences between 93 and 87? Did you do a mileage comparison? A dyno testing? On the FJ Cruiser's engine, running 87 will net a loss in MPG and HP, though the loss in HP is only 3hp so I doubt one could note the difference in HP without using a Dynomometer.
What do you mean you "noticed no change"? Are you saying you drove around and then said, "hmm seems like the same to me!"? Or did you scientifically evaluate the differences between 93 and 87? Did you do a mileage comparison? A dyno testing? On the FJ Cruiser's engine, running 87 will net a loss in MPG and HP, though the loss in HP is only 3hp so I doubt one could note the difference in HP without using a Dynomometer.
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Re: (imzjustplayin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by imzjustplayin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
But even vehicles that do not necessarily knock on lower octane fuel and the manual says "87 recommended", it does not mean they're incapable of benefitting from higher octane fuel. This point was already explained in the thread I linked to. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You're right, but the majority of vehicles won't benefit and especially to those that don't really push their car ever.
But even vehicles that do not necessarily knock on lower octane fuel and the manual says "87 recommended", it does not mean they're incapable of benefitting from higher octane fuel. This point was already explained in the thread I linked to. </TD></TR></TABLE>
You're right, but the majority of vehicles won't benefit and especially to those that don't really push their car ever.
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From: Columbus, OH
Re: (imzjustplayin)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by imzjustplayin »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What do you mean you "noticed no change"? Are you saying you drove around and then said, "hmm seems like the same to me!"? Or did you scientifically evaluate the differences between 93 and 87? Did you do a mileage comparison? A dyno testing? On the FJ Cruiser's engine, running 87 will net a loss in MPG and HP, though the loss in HP is only 3hp so I doubt one could note the difference in HP without using a Dynomometer. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Performance was the *** dyno, which I assumed you used. I track my mileage on every tank. However, that wasn't the point.
How do you know the knock sensor isn't pulling timing?
Modified by ddd4114 at 12:33 PM 8/2/2008
Performance was the *** dyno, which I assumed you used. I track my mileage on every tank. However, that wasn't the point.
How do you know the knock sensor isn't pulling timing?
Modified by ddd4114 at 12:33 PM 8/2/2008
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B*a*n*n*e*d
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Re: (ddd4114)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ddd4114 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Performance was the *** dyno, which I assumed you used. I track my mileage on every tank. However, that wasn't the point.
Does the FJ Cruiser have an octane sensor? How do you know the knock sensor isn't pulling timing?</TD></TR></TABLE>
what?
The numbers I generated from the FJ aren't out of thin air or from my testing, but by the manufacturer. The engine in the FJ is used in lots of toyota vehicles, and in their pickups, they're rated at 236HP 265ft-lbs of torque with 87 recommended and on the FJ 239HP 275ft-lbs of torque with 91 recommended. Same engine but with different fuel suggested and that's because the pickup market is targeted at a different demographic than the SUV market. Anyhow recommended is a poor term and they should instead change it to "required" but they probably don't because if you only have access to 85 octane fuel cause you're at 4000ft, then you're probably going to use that instead.
Does the FJ Cruiser have an octane sensor? How do you know the knock sensor isn't pulling timing?</TD></TR></TABLE>
what?
The numbers I generated from the FJ aren't out of thin air or from my testing, but by the manufacturer. The engine in the FJ is used in lots of toyota vehicles, and in their pickups, they're rated at 236HP 265ft-lbs of torque with 87 recommended and on the FJ 239HP 275ft-lbs of torque with 91 recommended. Same engine but with different fuel suggested and that's because the pickup market is targeted at a different demographic than the SUV market. Anyhow recommended is a poor term and they should instead change it to "required" but they probably don't because if you only have access to 85 octane fuel cause you're at 4000ft, then you're probably going to use that instead.
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From: columbia, sc, usa
Re: (NmaynarD)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by NmaynarD »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">In south carolina we don't have emissions... THANK GOD!!! So it's street legal in SC. </TD></TR></TABLE>
yes sir. thats why i love it here
yes sir. thats why i love it here
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From: Columbus, OH
Re: (imzjustplayin)
Do you know if the timing/fuel maps are different from the beginning?
Do you know if Toyota "lied" about the power figures like GM and some SBC-equipped cars?
Do you know if Toyota used different manifolding (or other components) even though the block and heads were the same?
Modified by ddd4114 at 12:33 PM 8/2/2008
Do you know if Toyota "lied" about the power figures like GM and some SBC-equipped cars?
Do you know if Toyota used different manifolding (or other components) even though the block and heads were the same?
Modified by ddd4114 at 12:33 PM 8/2/2008
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B*a*n*n*e*d
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Re: (ddd4114)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ddd4114 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Do you know if Toyota used an octane sensor to change the timing maps depending on the fuel in the tank?
Do you know if the timing/fuel maps are different from the beginning?
Do you know if Toyota "lied" about the power figures like GM and some SBC-equipped cars?
Do you know if Toyota used different manifolding (or other components) even though the block and heads were the same?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Reviewers have said that the FJ is perfectly capable of running on 87 and that it only results in a 3hp decrease which is exactly the same as that on the Tundra pickup which has the same engine. Also you keep saying octane sensor, can you show me an example of an octane sensor because I'm not familiar with any such device nor can I find information about it.
Do you know if the timing/fuel maps are different from the beginning?
Do you know if Toyota "lied" about the power figures like GM and some SBC-equipped cars?
Do you know if Toyota used different manifolding (or other components) even though the block and heads were the same?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Reviewers have said that the FJ is perfectly capable of running on 87 and that it only results in a 3hp decrease which is exactly the same as that on the Tundra pickup which has the same engine. Also you keep saying octane sensor, can you show me an example of an octane sensor because I'm not familiar with any such device nor can I find information about it.
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Re: (imzjustplayin)
I just tried searching for information on them, and I think I was misinformed when I first read about them. There are octane sensors used by refineries that use mass spectroscopy to determine the oil's chemical make-up. I could have SWORN that GM developed an octane sensing module for their cars, but I can't find anything on it. I'll have to search through the USPTO database later today. It also doesn't help that some people refer to knock sensors as octane sensors. I'll edit that out of my posts, and if I find something, I'll let you know.
Whatever the case, my previous knock sensor question still stands. How do you know that 3hp decrease is not a result of the knock sensor pulling timing?
Whatever the case, my previous knock sensor question still stands. How do you know that 3hp decrease is not a result of the knock sensor pulling timing?
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B*a*n*n*e*d
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Re: (ddd4114)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by ddd4114 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I just tried searching for information on them, and I think I was misinformed when I first read about them. There are octane sensors used by refineries that use mass spectroscopy to determine the oil's chemical make-up. I could have SWORN that GM developed an octane sensing module for their cars, but I can't find anything on it. I'll have to search through the USPTO database later today. It also doesn't help that some people refer to knock sensors as octane sensors. I'll edit that out of my posts, and if I find something, I'll let you know.
Whatever the case, my previous knock sensor question still stands. How do you know that 3hp decrease is not a result of the knock sensor pulling timing?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well if you could find/develop an octane sensor for cars, I'm sure that'd be a huge boon for E85 because that would allow E85 to be more fully utilized in Flex fuel vehicles compared to what it is now.
Whatever the case, my previous knock sensor question still stands. How do you know that 3hp decrease is not a result of the knock sensor pulling timing?</TD></TR></TABLE>
Well if you could find/develop an octane sensor for cars, I'm sure that'd be a huge boon for E85 because that would allow E85 to be more fully utilized in Flex fuel vehicles compared to what it is now.
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Re: (imzjustplayin)
OK .................... placing high octane fuel in a engine that is made to run on low octane fuel has no advantage what so ever.
A engine that has a compression ratio of 8.5 to 9.0:1 will function fine on low octane fuel.
You will not increase power output by using higher octane in the above engine mentioned.
You will not increase millage
The additives and blend process of all fuels varies from country to country and state to state on the pollution laws the government implement for car manufactures meeting "GREEN HOUSE GASES LEVELS " output my the vehicles we buy now and in the future
From the good old days when LEAD <U></U> additives where used in the blending of fuels has gone to the latest tech chemicals used today . Ask yourself if their healthy to inhale. Regardless even if it has passed throw a catalytic convertor once the fuel has been burned in the combustion chamber.
Placing higher octane fuel in a vehicle that doesn't have the right working environment for that fuel to work to it's full potential is a waste of money.
Higher compression engines and bigger boosted turbo and supercharged engines that a finely tuned will benefit from the higher quality of fuel , the " RESISTANCE ' to pre-ignition ( detonation ).
A engine that has a compression ratio of 8.5 to 9.0:1 will function fine on low octane fuel.
You will not increase power output by using higher octane in the above engine mentioned.
You will not increase millage
The additives and blend process of all fuels varies from country to country and state to state on the pollution laws the government implement for car manufactures meeting "GREEN HOUSE GASES LEVELS " output my the vehicles we buy now and in the future
From the good old days when LEAD <U></U> additives where used in the blending of fuels has gone to the latest tech chemicals used today . Ask yourself if their healthy to inhale. Regardless even if it has passed throw a catalytic convertor once the fuel has been burned in the combustion chamber.
Placing higher octane fuel in a vehicle that doesn't have the right working environment for that fuel to work to it's full potential is a waste of money.
Higher compression engines and bigger boosted turbo and supercharged engines that a finely tuned will benefit from the higher quality of fuel , the " RESISTANCE ' to pre-ignition ( detonation ).
Re: (FPV_GTp)
Octane can be measured by viewing the long term knock values.
Leaded fuel mya be good for your engine but as previously stated, not goo for you cat. converters(if you had them). Leaded fuel is also bad for the environment, hence the reasons NASCAR went unleaded and IRL is ethanol.
And my question, who did the dyno to discover this 3hp loss?
A typical run of the mill dyno's accuracy could explain 3hp.
Not to mention environmental factors, human factors, etc.
And I wouldnt be surprised at all that SC has leaded fuel.
It's the NASCAR and NHRA capital of the U.S., LOL
Leaded fuel mya be good for your engine but as previously stated, not goo for you cat. converters(if you had them). Leaded fuel is also bad for the environment, hence the reasons NASCAR went unleaded and IRL is ethanol.
And my question, who did the dyno to discover this 3hp loss?
A typical run of the mill dyno's accuracy could explain 3hp.
Not to mention environmental factors, human factors, etc.
And I wouldnt be surprised at all that SC has leaded fuel.
It's the NASCAR and NHRA capital of the U.S., LOL
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B*a*n*n*e*d
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Re: (FPV_GTp)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FPV_GTp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OK .................... placing high octane fuel in a engine that is made to run on low octane fuel has no advantage what so ever.
A engine that has a compression ratio of 8.5 to 9.0:1 will function fine on low octane fuel.
You will not increase power output by using higher octane in the above engine mentioned.
You will not increase millage
The additives and blend process of all fuels varies from country to country and state to state on the pollution laws the government implement for car manufactures meeting "GREEN HOUSE GASES LEVELS " output my the vehicles we buy now and in the future
From the good old days when LEAD <U></U> additives where used in the blending of fuels has gone to the latest tech chemicals used today . Ask yourself if their healthy to inhale. Regardless even if it has passed throw a catalytic convertor once the fuel has been burned in the combustion chamber.
Placing higher octane fuel in a vehicle that doesn't have the right working environment for that fuel to work to it's full potential is a waste of money.
Higher compression engines and bigger boosted turbo and supercharged engines that a finely tuned will benefit from the higher quality of fuel , the " RESISTANCE ' to pre-ignition ( detonation ).</TD></TR></TABLE>
The engine in the FJ has a compression ratio of 10:1, yet is capable of running on lower octane fuel but it isn't recommended. I wonder what the compression ratio was on the vortec 6000 6L engine or that engine in that I believe C/K pickup from 1995.
A engine that has a compression ratio of 8.5 to 9.0:1 will function fine on low octane fuel.
You will not increase power output by using higher octane in the above engine mentioned.
You will not increase millage
The additives and blend process of all fuels varies from country to country and state to state on the pollution laws the government implement for car manufactures meeting "GREEN HOUSE GASES LEVELS " output my the vehicles we buy now and in the future
From the good old days when LEAD <U></U> additives where used in the blending of fuels has gone to the latest tech chemicals used today . Ask yourself if their healthy to inhale. Regardless even if it has passed throw a catalytic convertor once the fuel has been burned in the combustion chamber.
Placing higher octane fuel in a vehicle that doesn't have the right working environment for that fuel to work to it's full potential is a waste of money.
Higher compression engines and bigger boosted turbo and supercharged engines that a finely tuned will benefit from the higher quality of fuel , the " RESISTANCE ' to pre-ignition ( detonation ).</TD></TR></TABLE>
The engine in the FJ has a compression ratio of 10:1, yet is capable of running on lower octane fuel but it isn't recommended. I wonder what the compression ratio was on the vortec 6000 6L engine or that engine in that I believe C/K pickup from 1995.
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Re: (patriot)
Define run fine on low octane fuel ? on a high compression engine.
To say engine compression ratio is not related to fuel octane mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I would have to strongly disagree , otherwise our leading scientist have got it wrong.
Let me ask a few question and see if we can work this out
Q1. Why do diesel engine run on diesel ? what compression ratio do diesel engines have ?
Q2. Why do alcohol engines run on alcohol ? what compression ratio do alcohol engines have ?
Q3. The F1 cars of the early 1980's running turbo engines , what fuels did they run in the highly boosted engines ? ( in excess of 40lbs boost )
Q4. What is toluene ? and we could also go into the more exotic fuels , that aviation topfuel dragsters and funny cars fuels use and then also rocket fuels. Each fuel is designed for a different purpose of use.
Q5. What are the compression ratios of the different design types of engines ( from 8.0 to 20.0:1 ratio normally aspirated to supercharged and turbo charged engines to run low boost to high boosted application ) to racing application engines )to run the following fuels gasoline , LP-gas , diesel , alcohol , toluene and Nitro-methane etc other fuels also ?
Q6. What are the air/fuel ratios of gasoline , LP-gas , diesel , alcohol , toluene and Nitro-methane etc other fuels also ?
Engine compression ratio is directly relate to the type of octane rating fuel you use.
lower octane fuels will in a high compression engine spontaneously combusted ( i.e. detonation , pinging , knock what ever terminology you want to use ) all means ignite without the sparkplugs aid.
There are also other contributing factors that will make engine detonation occur , inlet air temperatures , poor cooling systems design , under bonnet temperature , cylinder head design , inlet manifold poor design favour other cylinder filling , incorrect ignition timing mapped , air/fuel ratio mixtures and the list goes on. When you spend hours in a engine dynamometer room and chassis dynamometer testing and tuning engines you eyes are amaze at what findings you come across.
I stated in the first post engine design is important in using the correct fuel octane rating for the purpose the fuel was designed to operate.
Whether the detonation is silent or audible under engine load to the human ear. Longer term silent detonation is extremely catastrophic to a engine and very instance audible detonation engine noise is extremely catastrophic within milliseconds in destroy a engine.
There are some great automotive engineering technical books out there one can read , but here are a few website links that you might find of interest in the chemical compositions of the different types of fuels and there relevance to their octane rating and the best suited application they are used in.
Gasoline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol
Fuel For Thought http://www.ozsuperkart.net/TechArticles/Fuels.htm
Here is an article on "Rocket fuel" for our cars. http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
Gasoline FAQ http://www.repairfaq.org/filip....html
MYTH BUSTING: High Octane fuel will make a car faster (June 2008) http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2913793.aspx
Air-fuel ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio
Lambda or Air / Fuel Ratio Scales. Alcohol, diesel, propane or gasoline ... or air/fuel ratio for alcohol, diesel, propane or. gasoline. ... http://www.mrtrally.com.au/per...e.pdf
ALCOHOL FUELS http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel2.html
http://www.powerchipgroup.com/articles/PET0605.pdf have a look at air fuel ratios for different types of fuels
What does octane mean?
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm
Octane rating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
Fuel Octane Rating - Research Octane Number (RON) http://www.madabout-kitcars.co...d=124
Fuel Octane Ratings for Recreational Engines - http://www.powerchipgroup.com/....html
http://education.yahoo.com/ref...luene
Definition of toluene - A colorless flammable liquid, CH3C6H5, obtained from coal tar or petroleum and used in aviation fuel and other high-octane fuels, in dyestuffs, explosives, and as a solvent for gums and lacquers. Also called methylbenzene
The internet is amazing a wealth of information.
cheers
Modified by FPV_GTp at 4:43 PM 8/5/2008
Modified by FPV_GTp at 4:54 PM 8/5/2008
To say engine compression ratio is not related to fuel octane mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I would have to strongly disagree , otherwise our leading scientist have got it wrong.
Let me ask a few question and see if we can work this out
Q1. Why do diesel engine run on diesel ? what compression ratio do diesel engines have ?
Q2. Why do alcohol engines run on alcohol ? what compression ratio do alcohol engines have ?
Q3. The F1 cars of the early 1980's running turbo engines , what fuels did they run in the highly boosted engines ? ( in excess of 40lbs boost )
Q4. What is toluene ? and we could also go into the more exotic fuels , that aviation topfuel dragsters and funny cars fuels use and then also rocket fuels. Each fuel is designed for a different purpose of use.
Q5. What are the compression ratios of the different design types of engines ( from 8.0 to 20.0:1 ratio normally aspirated to supercharged and turbo charged engines to run low boost to high boosted application ) to racing application engines )to run the following fuels gasoline , LP-gas , diesel , alcohol , toluene and Nitro-methane etc other fuels also ?
Q6. What are the air/fuel ratios of gasoline , LP-gas , diesel , alcohol , toluene and Nitro-methane etc other fuels also ?
Engine compression ratio is directly relate to the type of octane rating fuel you use.
lower octane fuels will in a high compression engine spontaneously combusted ( i.e. detonation , pinging , knock what ever terminology you want to use ) all means ignite without the sparkplugs aid.
There are also other contributing factors that will make engine detonation occur , inlet air temperatures , poor cooling systems design , under bonnet temperature , cylinder head design , inlet manifold poor design favour other cylinder filling , incorrect ignition timing mapped , air/fuel ratio mixtures and the list goes on. When you spend hours in a engine dynamometer room and chassis dynamometer testing and tuning engines you eyes are amaze at what findings you come across.
I stated in the first post engine design is important in using the correct fuel octane rating for the purpose the fuel was designed to operate.
Whether the detonation is silent or audible under engine load to the human ear. Longer term silent detonation is extremely catastrophic to a engine and very instance audible detonation engine noise is extremely catastrophic within milliseconds in destroy a engine.
There are some great automotive engineering technical books out there one can read , but here are a few website links that you might find of interest in the chemical compositions of the different types of fuels and there relevance to their octane rating and the best suited application they are used in.
Gasoline http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petrol
Fuel For Thought http://www.ozsuperkart.net/TechArticles/Fuels.htm
Here is an article on "Rocket fuel" for our cars. http://www.elektro.com/~audi/audi/toluene.html
Gasoline FAQ http://www.repairfaq.org/filip....html
MYTH BUSTING: High Octane fuel will make a car faster (June 2008) http://www.carpoint.com.au/car-review/2913793.aspx
Air-fuel ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air-fuel_ratio
Lambda or Air / Fuel Ratio Scales. Alcohol, diesel, propane or gasoline ... or air/fuel ratio for alcohol, diesel, propane or. gasoline. ... http://www.mrtrally.com.au/per...e.pdf
ALCOHOL FUELS http://www.turbofast.com.au/racefuel2.html
http://www.powerchipgroup.com/articles/PET0605.pdf have a look at air fuel ratios for different types of fuels
What does octane mean?
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question90.htm
Octane rating http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octane_rating
Fuel Octane Rating - Research Octane Number (RON) http://www.madabout-kitcars.co...d=124
Fuel Octane Ratings for Recreational Engines - http://www.powerchipgroup.com/....html
http://education.yahoo.com/ref...luene
Definition of toluene - A colorless flammable liquid, CH3C6H5, obtained from coal tar or petroleum and used in aviation fuel and other high-octane fuels, in dyestuffs, explosives, and as a solvent for gums and lacquers. Also called methylbenzene
The internet is amazing a wealth of information.
cheers
Modified by FPV_GTp at 4:43 PM 8/5/2008
Modified by FPV_GTp at 4:54 PM 8/5/2008
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From: Columbus, OH
Re: (FPV_GTp)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FPV_GTp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">To say engine compression ratio is not related to fuel octane mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I would have to strongly disagree , otherwise our leading scientist have got it wrong.</TD></TR></TABLE>
If that's directed at me, I'm not saying it's not a factor. I was stating (like you did) that there are many other factors as well.
Out of curiosity, who is "our"?
If that's directed at me, I'm not saying it's not a factor. I was stating (like you did) that there are many other factors as well.
Out of curiosity, who is "our"?
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 60
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From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: (ddd4114)
Hi DDD ........... it is a question that's all , I'm not directing it at you we are just having a civil conversation the forum. Don't take it too personal. I'm not attacking you.
" OUR scientists " - implies the early pioneers of the internal combustion engine right up to now our scientist and engineers from the everyday family orientated vehicle engine right through to the magnificent men of the Formula one racing teams
here is a little useful information on Air/Fuel ratio for different types of fuel and their intend application.
Lambda to air : fuel ratio chart http://www.mainlineauto.com.au...x.htm
http://www.fefcholden.org.au/techinfo/tech003.html
" OUR scientists " - implies the early pioneers of the internal combustion engine right up to now our scientist and engineers from the everyday family orientated vehicle engine right through to the magnificent men of the Formula one racing teams
here is a little useful information on Air/Fuel ratio for different types of fuel and their intend application.
Lambda to air : fuel ratio chart http://www.mainlineauto.com.au...x.htm
http://www.fefcholden.org.au/techinfo/tech003.html
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,062
Likes: 1
From: Columbus, OH
Re: (FPV_GTp)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FPV_GTp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hi DDD ........... it is a question that's all , I'm not directing it at you we are just having a civil conversation the forum. Don't take it too personal. I'm not attacking you.</TD></TR></TABLE>
Ah, ok. Since my post precedes yours, I thought you misinterpreted it. Not a big deal.
You sure brought a lot of information to the table.
Ah, ok. Since my post precedes yours, I thought you misinterpreted it. Not a big deal.
You sure brought a lot of information to the table.
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Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 60
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From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: (FPV_GTp)
Before one decides to start making his or hers own batch of octane boosters with the uses of toluene , be very careful extremely dangerous to health.
Like most chemicals please find out the correct handling procedures of any highly dangerous chemicals
To bump up the octane rating of you standard gasoline bowser fuels one can make his/her own octane booster additives for a far less price than the ones you purchase from the shops.
Larger batchers will make it more price effective , so decide to mix( blend) octane booster with a few friends and divide the quantity up evenly amongst yourselves.
cheers
Like most chemicals please find out the correct handling procedures of any highly dangerous chemicals
To bump up the octane rating of you standard gasoline bowser fuels one can make his/her own octane booster additives for a far less price than the ones you purchase from the shops.
Larger batchers will make it more price effective , so decide to mix( blend) octane booster with a few friends and divide the quantity up evenly amongst yourselves.
cheers
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 383
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From: columbia, sc, usa
Re: (FPV_GTp)
so this is what i comprehended from reading through the thread. a stock ls(example) is chipped to run 87 octane and will get the FULL power out of the 87 octane, correct? and if that stock ls is still chipped for 87 running 93 is a waste of money and not gaining any HP, correct?
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: (teg_95)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by teg_95 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so this is what i comprehended from reading through the thread. a stock ls(example) is chipped to run 87 octane and will get the FULL power out of the 87 octane, correct? and if that stock ls is still chipped for 87 running 93 is a waste of money and not gaining any HP, correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>
OK teg_95 , For the same engine that we are talking about ,What is the best operating air/fuel ratio for 87 octane rating gasoline fuel? AND what is the best operating air/fuel ratio for 93 octane rating gasoline fuel?
For the same engine that we are talking about , what is the best operating ignition timing settings for 87 octane rating gasoline fuel? AND what is the best operating ignition timing settings for 93 octane rating gasoline fuel? AND
Assuming the engine tune for the a stock(example) is chipped to run 87 octane fuel. The fuel table maps have been corrected to run 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio on light throttle settings, right up to wide open throttle settings of around 12.5:1 air/fuel ratio on a normally aspirated engine where this engine makes maximum horsepower/torque I'm assuming stock(example).
Also all the ignition tables have been mapped out correctly for this stock(example) where this engine makes maximum horsepower/torque I'm assuming stock(example) again.
Considering nothing else has been changed on the engine , this engine will require X amount of time to fill the cylinders with air and fuel for a given engine speed.
We haven't in any way or shape increased air cylinder filling of the engine.
So the air/fuel ratio whether it be 87 octane rating or 97 octane rating fuel the fuel requirement of this engine will be the same.
Also X amount of time is require to ignite the air and fuel in the cylinder to burn say in a ideal world 100% to get maximum cylinder pressure to push down on the piston on the downward stroke (POWER STROKE). To obtain the correct ignition timing for this engine we are talking about, it will be a few degrees of engine ignition timing before spark ignition timing causes detonation. This is not spontaneous combustion ( uncontrolled cylinder burn ). So using a different grade of octane gasoline fuel the timing will be the same for this engine.
So my question to you is , What tuning adjustments can chip makes do to make this engine run on 87 octane rating gasoline fuel as apposed to 97 octane rating gasoline fuel to make the engine run better and make more power ? If Air/fuel ratio and ignition timing tables have been already adjusted.
I will add more to the discussion
cheers
OK teg_95 , For the same engine that we are talking about ,What is the best operating air/fuel ratio for 87 octane rating gasoline fuel? AND what is the best operating air/fuel ratio for 93 octane rating gasoline fuel?
For the same engine that we are talking about , what is the best operating ignition timing settings for 87 octane rating gasoline fuel? AND what is the best operating ignition timing settings for 93 octane rating gasoline fuel? AND
Assuming the engine tune for the a stock(example) is chipped to run 87 octane fuel. The fuel table maps have been corrected to run 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio on light throttle settings, right up to wide open throttle settings of around 12.5:1 air/fuel ratio on a normally aspirated engine where this engine makes maximum horsepower/torque I'm assuming stock(example).
Also all the ignition tables have been mapped out correctly for this stock(example) where this engine makes maximum horsepower/torque I'm assuming stock(example) again.
Considering nothing else has been changed on the engine , this engine will require X amount of time to fill the cylinders with air and fuel for a given engine speed.
We haven't in any way or shape increased air cylinder filling of the engine.
So the air/fuel ratio whether it be 87 octane rating or 97 octane rating fuel the fuel requirement of this engine will be the same.
Also X amount of time is require to ignite the air and fuel in the cylinder to burn say in a ideal world 100% to get maximum cylinder pressure to push down on the piston on the downward stroke (POWER STROKE). To obtain the correct ignition timing for this engine we are talking about, it will be a few degrees of engine ignition timing before spark ignition timing causes detonation. This is not spontaneous combustion ( uncontrolled cylinder burn ). So using a different grade of octane gasoline fuel the timing will be the same for this engine.
So my question to you is , What tuning adjustments can chip makes do to make this engine run on 87 octane rating gasoline fuel as apposed to 97 octane rating gasoline fuel to make the engine run better and make more power ? If Air/fuel ratio and ignition timing tables have been already adjusted.
I will add more to the discussion
cheers
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 60
Likes: 0
From: Melbourne, Victoria, Australia
Re: (teg_95) best operating ignition timing settings
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by teg_95 »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">so this is what i comprehended from reading through the thread. a stock ls(example) is chipped to run 87 octane and will get the FULL power out of the 87 octane, correct? and if that stock ls is still chipped for 87 running 93 is a waste of money and not gaining any HP, correct?</TD></TR></TABLE>
best operating ignition timing settings for a given engine
The maximum ignition timing for a give engine at a given engine speed to achieve maximum horsepower/torque in a safe manner is accomplished by a few degrees before ignition detonation occurs.
Best achieved on a engine dynamometer or a chassis dynamometer where one can apply a engine load and make the necessary ignition timing adjustments.
Some people use a knock sensor and a oscilloscope looking at scope patterns a knock sensor puts out when it detects detonation. Some people use microphone headsets with a sensor on the engine block like a doctors stethoscope. Some people use washer type transducers under head bolts to measure maximum cylinder pressures while adjusting ignition timing. I myself use a visual and hearing aid apparatus to detect engine detonation when making adjustments on the dynamometer at work.
http://www.gill.co.uk/products...e.asp
"Ignition advance and Speed mapping
Ignition advance is the number of degrees before top-dead-centre (TDC) that a spark occurs. The reason for ignition advance is that the spark to combust the fuel/air mixture needs to be timed so that the point of peak combustion pressure is when the piston is just beyond TDC. If the point of peak combustion pressure is too early and before TDC the pressure wave will slow down the speed of the piston travelling up towards it, and may cause detonation (knocking) which is very damaging to the engine. If the point of peak combustion pressure is too late, the pressure wave will ‘chase' the piston as it travels back down the cylinder in the combustion stroke and most of the energy will be lost. "
As the speed of the engine rises, the ignition advance angle needs to increase. This is because the time to combust an unchanging air/fuel mixture is approximately constant. If the ignition advance angle were kept the same, the point of peak combustion pressure would move further and further into the combustion stroke losing more and more power. Therefore the ignition advance needs to be increased to bring the point of peak combustion to just beyond TDC
Ignition timing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing
Knock, Knock - Part 3 Knock testing on the dyno http://autospeed.com/cms/A_0601/article.html
Set the Ignition Timing AND Tuning mixture
http://www.hondata.com/techtuning.html
Setting Ignition Timing Curves -Tick-Tock Timing The Right Way
http://www.chevyhiperformance.....html
Modified by FPV_GTp at 4:11 AM 8/6/2008
best operating ignition timing settings for a given engine
The maximum ignition timing for a give engine at a given engine speed to achieve maximum horsepower/torque in a safe manner is accomplished by a few degrees before ignition detonation occurs.
Best achieved on a engine dynamometer or a chassis dynamometer where one can apply a engine load and make the necessary ignition timing adjustments.
Some people use a knock sensor and a oscilloscope looking at scope patterns a knock sensor puts out when it detects detonation. Some people use microphone headsets with a sensor on the engine block like a doctors stethoscope. Some people use washer type transducers under head bolts to measure maximum cylinder pressures while adjusting ignition timing. I myself use a visual and hearing aid apparatus to detect engine detonation when making adjustments on the dynamometer at work.
http://www.gill.co.uk/products...e.asp
"Ignition advance and Speed mapping
Ignition advance is the number of degrees before top-dead-centre (TDC) that a spark occurs. The reason for ignition advance is that the spark to combust the fuel/air mixture needs to be timed so that the point of peak combustion pressure is when the piston is just beyond TDC. If the point of peak combustion pressure is too early and before TDC the pressure wave will slow down the speed of the piston travelling up towards it, and may cause detonation (knocking) which is very damaging to the engine. If the point of peak combustion pressure is too late, the pressure wave will ‘chase' the piston as it travels back down the cylinder in the combustion stroke and most of the energy will be lost. "
As the speed of the engine rises, the ignition advance angle needs to increase. This is because the time to combust an unchanging air/fuel mixture is approximately constant. If the ignition advance angle were kept the same, the point of peak combustion pressure would move further and further into the combustion stroke losing more and more power. Therefore the ignition advance needs to be increased to bring the point of peak combustion to just beyond TDC
Ignition timing http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignition_timing
Knock, Knock - Part 3 Knock testing on the dyno http://autospeed.com/cms/A_0601/article.html
Set the Ignition Timing AND Tuning mixture
http://www.hondata.com/techtuning.html
Setting Ignition Timing Curves -Tick-Tock Timing The Right Way
http://www.chevyhiperformance.....html
Modified by FPV_GTp at 4:11 AM 8/6/2008
Honda-Tech Member
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
From: columbia, sc, usa
Re: (FPV_GTp)
<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FPV_GTp »</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">waste of money and not gaining any HP, correct </TD></TR></TABLE>
ok good
ok good