Peak power output usually only lasts for 2-3 thousand RPM, but the usable power band can be as wide as you can make it. My torque curve was thick enough at 1,800 RPM to allow me to pass people, in 5th gear at 40mph, without bogging or hesitation. I would refrain from using a higher idle as a bandaid for a loping idle, Instead, I would suggest using cam gears to set the LSA wider.

Check G2ic.com for more people with 404's and tuning. Most are running high CR and a hondata as well. None are in the 190's with anything resembling a reasonable powerband. Can you get 190 out of the cams? Maybe. But you cant do it with a powerband suited for daily driving.

As for the people with VTEC killer cams, those guys are usually very wealthy, and have more than just that car to drive everyday. Its not like they hop in thier drag car and go to work, but they may take it out on the street every once ina while.

 

Check out Len on this board, I beleive he daily drives his vtec killer ITR.

When refering to a powerband, you typically are talking about the peak area of power you want to be in for acceleration purposes. A flat torque curve is always nice, but that doesn't mean you have a 6,000rpm powerband, you are always going to have some area where you are making the most power. I am sure you know all of this, just trying to make sure everyone is clear.

I don't know if I would personally set the LSA wider just to fix the idle. Setting the idle rpm higher might decrease gas milage a little, and may wear the engine a tiny more, but changing the LSA alters the whole powerband. While in most cases on a non-vtec B18/B20 you are going to want a beefy midrange (which a wider LSA hypothetically results in), I tend to see the best gains in the powerband area with a tighter LSA.

I will hit 190 on a daily driven 404 car, just because no one has done it before doesn't mean it can't be done.

 

Im sure that if you are determined enough, 190whp on a 404 LS is possible, but with a huge sacrifice to driveability. WIth the narrow LSA, you will be effectivly making your engine "peaky" and high strung. Its basically the same setup as a lesser flowing GSR motor with (hopefully) higher compression. A 70whp jump from stock is a HUGE jump when considering most LS's dyno in at upper 120's low 130WHP. I just cant imagine how drastically the motor is going to change with all these modifications. I had 404's without high CR (motor spun a bearing before I got a chance) and it was a totally different animal. My power really didnt come on untill around 4,500. The torque was there at 1,800-2,000RPM but the LS really came into its own between 4,500 to 7,500.

EDIT- styleteg, I didn't mean to say that you were implying 404's idle like stock. I just wanted to reiterate the fact that they are not comparable to the idle of 403's.


Modified by notstock93 at 10:59 PM 1/29/2004

 

well i am not after a hugh peak power i am after a smooth torque and hp curve
i dont really care what i get out of peak hp because i am just after the build for fun and for the occasional future track days

 

well, If you're going to actually use the power that these cams are going to give you, I say go for it. The main reason I went to a VTEC motor is becuase I didnt ever use the upper RPM power of my LS, but I still had bad gas mileage and a hot-rod idle. It makes more sense, in my application, to use a VTEC motor, so I can have the big cam on the very rare occasion I do use it, and a livable idle for the other 95% of the time.

My cams and tricked out valvetrain are going to my friend dylan, and I know he will definantly use it (hes a big autocross guy). He may approach 190WHP, but he is using a different (94+ LS) head,high compression, hondata and possibly (not for sure) a skunk manifold and/or 2.0L block He is planning on fully exploiting the high end power of these cams, idle be damned. Crazy bastard.

 

well look at it this way i am 19 and i always use my full rpm range
hell i was known at one point for riding the rev limiter
and i LOVE to have power at hand, especially when all of my family members have
americam muscle (they just hate it when my car hands the their *** like when i had my awd lazer turbo, yes a dsm, no i did not like it)
i want the fun factor and the ability to hang when it comes race time

 

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Im sure that if you are determined enough, 190whp on a 404 LS is possible, but with a huge sacrifice to driveability. WIth the narrow LSA, you will be effectivly making your engine "peaky" and high strung. Its basically the same setup as a lesser flowing GSR motor with (hopefully) higher compression. A 70whp jump from stock is a HUGE jump when considering most LS's dyno in at upper 120's low 130WHP. I just cant imagine how drastically the motor is going to change with all these modifications. I had 404's without high CR (motor spun a bearing before I got a chance) and it was a totally different animal. My power really didnt come on untill around 4,500. The torque was there at 1,800-2,000RPM but the LS really came into its own between 4,500 to 7,500.
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While I greatly respect your experiance in this matter, I don't see it being that much of an issue. Since the cylinder filling of a B18B/B20 is not great by any means in the high rpms, the LSA will not have to be as narrow as one might think. No need to send the powerband extremely high if you are not going to make power there anyways. Not to mention the use of a 2 liter engine, I doubt it will really ever be high strung compaired to other honda motors *cough* b16 *cough*.

The 404s are very simmilar to ITR cams spec wise. Is not uncommon to see ITR's hitting 190whp on stock cams. Given that I will be running more displacement, and higher compression, I don't see it being a far fetched goal. The only real obstical I see is the crappy head, but that can be improved.

 

Yes, ITR's can make 190WHP with some great parts on stock cams, but remember, the cam specs are slightly larger on ITR's, and they make that power at 8k+. See where this is going? You need revs to make power from huge cams. I see what you mean by saying the LSA doesnt have to be TOO narrow for the powerband to shift for the better but I just hate narrowing it for any reason. My next motor will be a 2.0L non-vtec (stock B18A head) with a widened LSA, and its going into a CRX HF. Imagine the torque:weight.

Whats that B16 comment supposed to mean?

My B16 SHOULD have almost all of its torque available from 2k on, thanks to the GSR head, cams, manifold and 10.44:1C.R. Booya.

You're lucky, StyleTeg, you're starting out with a head that flows better than the previous generations (DA).

Personaly, with my B16/gsr combo I have going, im only looking to hit about 160whp. but I want it to have great under-the-curve power. I know its all relative when talking about the no-torque B16.

 

I can't completely agree. For most hondas that is true, its simple math. If you can get the engine to breath high, you can make more HP higher.

HP = torque * rpm / 5252

Higher you can make your torque in the rpm range, the more hp you will make.

However, you don't NEED to rev high if you have another element. Displacement. Which is how of cource muscle cars use huge cams, and they don't rev high thats for sure.

With only reving 400rpm less than an ITR, and having .2 more displacement should make up for the piston dwell difference, and the slight redline difference. I am looking up the cam specs on 404s vs ITR now.

I didn't know you were using a b16, but all I have to say is good luck with getting all of its torque available from 2k on

Again going back to displacement, and piston dwell. The low displacement, and high rod/stroke, are going to make your engine a very peaky engine. Hmm, only 160whp, sounds like a very different method than most people build a B16. I am very curious as to what you have planned and up your sleeve

 

ITR Cams

Advertised Duration
Int-278 mid
Exh-280 mid

Duration @ .050"
Int-233 mid
Exh-224 mid

Gross Lift w/1.55
Int-.449 mid
Exh-.417 mid

404s

Advertised Duration
249 / 251

Duration @ .050"
216 / 218

Gross Lift w/1.55
.446 / .432

They have more duration, but the lift is about the same (with the exhaust cam on the 404s being more aggressive)

I still think I can hit 190 or very close to it with a very usable powerband thanks to two liters of displacement.

 

i also think it is possible to hit 190 with a 1.8l
i am also thinking of using a different
crank but that means aftermarket rods.
maybe a gsr crank

i will have to think really hard about the choices and
part selection to make shure everything is compatible

 

I dont have any special or secret plans for my B16 Build. I balanced the bottom, built it with ARP rod bolts and Im running around 10.5:1 with bigger cams and a manifold specifically designed for low RPM power. No secrets here.

My HP goal is low, but it should be more usable and ulitmatly faster than the average B16 swap.

 

the strongest b16 i have ever seen that is stock is the one that my friend has in his hatch now

it is a sir 1 and that thing pulls like no tomorrow
i would go as far to say that it pulls harder than my stock ls

i think it is the red Hype R valve cover