i will be building a ls engine here soon and i was wondering how hard it is to tune 404's for street. Idont really care about a rough idle but i dont want my car stalling on me. Are these cams too terribly hard to tune
also i was wondering how hard are the 405's to tune and has anybody ever used them on the street

i have a hp goal of around 185-190whp with my ls
i am wanting to use the largest cam possible

 

i will be using pct's and i will have the head decked. I will be running around 12.3:1 compression and I will have my head ported and polished with a 3 angle valve job

 

I had 404's in my LS

you will need
-fuel pressure regulator
-Hondata - A MUST with that kind of CR. I hope you're not expecting it to run on pump gas. You could probably get away with running P30's (11:1)
-Adj. Cam gears.

With the above mentioned, you should be able to get it to idle at around 950 plus or minus 100 RPM. I made due with just the first two, and only a hondata for a while. It was lumpy.

What are you doing to the bottom end. Dont say "nothing". It needs at least a freshening up and some ARP rod bolts. These cams are comparible to type-r VTEC lobes, and they usually dont stop making power untill around 8k.

 

welli will be using arp throught and i have seen and helped build 12:1 and up compression engines that ran off of pump gas
i will be using a tuning system probably a chip re burn system and a wide band system and a dyno for tuning

and yes i will have cam gears

 

Yes, but with all due respect, 12:1 is not 12.3:1. I've seen numerous, well built LS's with 12xx:1 running VERY strongly, and not one of them is around today. Everyone of those motors ran on 94 octane as well.

Also, you are going to entering a point of diminishing returns with that high of CR. Those cams wont really need anything over 11.5:1. Over that, you're simply undercamming your engine and giving it a higher risk of detonation for minimal results.

Good luck with the cams.

 

well my choice of pistons was going to be PCT's do you think i should drop down on the compression to like PR3's. i was also told that i should do the same today by a local and i am seriously considering it especially since i already have a set of PR3's liying around

 

Yes, I think that there is no reason to overcam your engine and risk detonation for those cams. PR3's will yeild a CR of 10.8:1, and with those cams, it will be fine. You can adjust your LSA via cam gears to smooth out your idle. Doing so will slightly sacrifice peak numbers while giving you a more usable powerband.

Be sure to
1. sand and polish the tops of the pistons to rid any potential hotspots (light grit, buffing wheel)-it takes maybe half an hour.
2. think about getting the rods balanced if your planning on running anything over 7,500RPM. This is in addition to ARP rod bolts at least.
3. sell those PCT's and buy a tunable ECU programmer of some sort (I reccomend hondata)

 

well i want to run at least 11.5:1 or something close to it

i already have PR3's and i will be using a chipped ecu with a reburn program
and i will have it professionally dyno tuned by Chad at R and D motorsports
i might be running a safc or something of the sort possibly hondata(depending on funds)

then my setup will be
LS block,crank and rods
ARP studs throught
balanced EVERYTHING and polished pistons
also i will probably mill the head like 15 thousandths to bump compression up
(like i said i want to run at least 11.5:1 compression to reach my hp goal)
ported and polished head stainless valves with a multiangle valve job
and valve springs titanium retainers and 404 cams

i will also be running a gsr block girdle and MAYBE some oil squirters

EDIT: i will also be using Total Seal gapless piston rings

 

Oil squirtiers- a good idea

If you run a GSR girdle, you'll also need to run a GSR windage tray and pick up.

It sounds to me like you're after a high HP number. Peak HP numbers are meaningless. Period. The best thing you can possibly do is tune for a well rounded torque curve and thick powerband.

Milling the head would be a last resort for me, it messes with your timing characteristics.

As for fuel managment, you mention S-AFC or Hondata, well, a S100 Hondata is cheaper than a new or slightly used SAFC. And its WAAAYYY more adjustable. Just some food for thought. 11.5:1 would be a good number to run, but unless you're milling the head alot, its just not going to happen with stock pistons. Maybe ITR slugs, but I dont know what kind of CR those give. It may be closer to 11.5:1, ill check for you. Those, however, are not a direct bolt-in affair. The small end of the rod (or the piston) has to be narrowed 2mm, I beleive. You may be able to run some P30's with flat faced valves to raise the compression to around 11.4-ish.

Edit- just saw that your running total seal. Dont buy them for the name, just get some OEM honda rings. Just trust me on this one. Ive never heard of anyone with an all motor street setup that is happy with total seal rings.

Im sorry, I was wrong on my CR specs. PR3's will give a CR of 11.1:1, P30's will give 11.3:1. A SLIGHT milling of the head/decking of the block to make sure the head gasket mates up will bump you into 11.5:1 range with a set of P30's.

 

if i am not mistaken the PCT's have the highest compression ratio out of the stock honda pistons followed by the PR3's then the JDM ITR pistons

if i mill the head it will not be too drastic of a change because i will not be going off the wall with a 30 thousandths mill i just want to do it enough to bump the compression up to where i want

i will be tuning this engine for peak torque (because it makes for a more fun engine )

to be honest this will be my first build but i will be kinda guided by some good builders, every engine i have built in the past was a chevy or a nissan engine.

i will probably end up going with hondata of some extent because of the tunability

 

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Oil squirtiers- a good idea
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Honestly I don't think the trouble/cost of oil squirters is worth the gain. Better off to get some forged pistons instead of using honda's.

The piston dwell with the B18B/B20 rod/stroke doesn't allow for much power to be made in the very high rpms anyways. A forged piston is more than capable of dealing with the heat of a relatively low reving motor (7,000 -&gt; 8,000 rpm).

 

also remember that this build will be one on a budget so forged pistons are a little out of my grasp

 

Then so are oil squirters

 

You arent going to need forged psitons. PCT's will yeild 11.7:1, which is still streetable with good tuning. DONT mill the head anymore than you absolutly have to. If you are going to clean the head/block, then do it VERY slightly. You are already on the verge of undercamming your engine with that CR anyway.

 

Just to be clear, I wasn't saying he should ditch his hondas for forged.

I was saying if heat was a concern enough, that you were considering trying to mount oil squirters in an B18B block, you would be better off just buying forged pistons. It would be cheaper, and deal with the heat as well.

 

Yea, I know you weren't saying to ditch the honda's. I gotcha. I just want to make sure this guy has a reliable motor with a usable powerband and street driveabillity. I say if you are dead set on using the PCT's, polish the hell out of them, deck the block for a good seal from the head gasket and tune untill you cant tune anymore. Dont run higher than 11.5:1 if you can help it, though. Your peak power difference between the two pistons will be nominal, so just go with safety first.

As stated before, the cylinder filling properties from a low RS ratio motor is not condusive to making power higher than 7,800 or so.

as for 405's, ive never heard of anyone crazy enough to run them on the street. They are HUGE cams. 12.5:1 is the minimum CR for those cams.

 

i have seen oil squirter's installed on a b20z block and they look flawless and they cost, i think, a total of 200 dollars to get done

also i want to be able to run reliably because this is my daily driver/college car
i am thinking of just using some PR3's and maybe milling the head a slight amount to get my compression as close to 11.5:1 as i can.

i will NEVER spray and i highly doubt i will ever turbo it but if i do it wont be with PR3's anyways, i will most likely use the stock LS pistons for that

i don't think i will really need the oil squirter's or the block girdle
but i want it for a more "reliable" engine

 

whoa, if this is for an everyday driver, you may want to think twice about the 404's. I had them in my everyday driver and it soon became my not-so-eceryday driver. The gas mileage will go down the drain as will low speed driveability. My advice to you. Get the 403's and stay with your compression goal. It will be undercamming the engine, but it will idle fairly smooth, get considerably better gas mileage and have great power. Ive seen dynos of a car with 403's and stock compression with 155WHP. Your goal of 190 WHP will NOT happen with 404's, and will not be streetable with whatever it takes to get there. Making a perfectly usable car into an unstreetable mess is the worst thing you can do to yourself. Stay with smaller cams, keep the higher CR and deal with being undercammed.

 

ok that is what i was after since the first post
are 404's streetable and has anybody ever done it with them or the 405's
i figured that i would step up to 404's because they were the same price as the 403's and 402's
i will be running a fully ported head and good springs and stainless valves

 

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Your goal of 190 WHP will NOT happen with 404's, and will not be streetable with whatever it takes to get there.
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I hope to prove you wrong

I have seen 404's on a 2 liter B18B making 170whp with a stock head, shitty exhaust system (2" collector, 2.25" exhaust), and stock compression.

How streetable 404s are, is largely dependant on the driver. The rougher idle will matter more to some than others. Personally I drove a mild build 403 LS and the idle felt like stock.

 

i kindof want the 404's
there havebeen a quite a fewpeople that have used toda spec c's and d's on the street. i think anything that a 404 can throw me i can handle
i just wanted to get a few constructive opinions about my build and cams

 

The idle of a 404 is in no way stock like. It sounds and feels like a go kart idle or maybe an old harley. People can run toda c and d's becuase its a VTEC cam and doesnt idle like crap. As for making 190 WHP, I too have seen upper 160's and a few 170's from 404's but the 170's were NOT on stock compression (usually about 10.5:1) and its still a big difference between 170 and 190. But like Ive been saying, aiming for a peak HP number is useless. Its better to say "i hope to have this kind of powerband" instead of "i hope to make 200WHP" or something like that.

404's are great cams, I should know, Ive had them, but they arent mild. Whatever you choose, I hope it works out for you. Remember, to get the most out of these cams, its going to require extra revs and extra compression, neither of which come cheap. and dont forget, with LS cams TUNING IS CRITICAL.

Oh, and my powerband with my 404's started at 1,800RPM. No joke.

 

well i kinda beg to differ on the spec d's they idle like a raped ape

anyhow
my main goal is not to make some outrageous peak hp number
it would be a plus to produce 180-190whp but not necessary
considering that i probably only put down about 130hp it will be a huge jump
especially with my gsr ys1 tranny soon to have lsd maybe even 4.785fd
but i am mainly looking for an extremely fun car that will handle excellent
and will pull really hard. basically i am looking for the fun factor and
a torkey sweetness that makes the LS fun.
mainly i am looking at this as a challenge

i will be redoing the valve components and upgrading the bottom end to withstand
maybe 8000 rpm (i will either set a rev limit via ecu cut or external ignition system)
considering that i have such a close ratio transmission it would be great advantage
to have i higher revving engine

 

But people do daily drive Vtec killer cams

The rough idle can be improved with idle rpm and fuel pressure. But yeah it's definetly not stock (I said the 403's were stock).

I will have to recheck the 170whp, but even if it did have higher compression it still had the other hits against them.

There was a member on here with 200whp with 405's, on a crappy tune and much room for improvement. Honestly I see 190whp happening with 404s done correctly. But of cource that is a speculation, but I will prove otherwise.

While I agree, peak HP shuoldn't be the main focus. It should be considered. A lot of the engine package revolves around how much power you want to make. Exhaust, head porting, etc.

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Oh, and my powerband with my 404's started at 1,800RPM. No joke.
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A powerband is usually no longer than 2,000rpm (ie: 6 - 8k rpm). Do you mean the car didn't start moving until 1,800rpm, or the torque was quite flat from 1,800+?

 

well who knows what i will put out
i guess we will have to wait until i get done
i have a good tuner especially with hondata
and all or at least most of my tuning will be done
on the dyno by Chad at RandD Motorsports