Motor is a 96 JDM ITR. All of a sudden one day the car would not fire.. cranks all day lng and at some points it wants to turn over. you can hear air getting sucked in but before it starts, it dies. I can pop the clutch and it runs fine. No issue. And if i turn the car off after running it, i can turn it back on and it will start. So the coil is still charged, but if the coil gets fully discharged (not starting it for awhile) then im fubar, and in the situation i explained earlier.

I did a search and didnt see anyone that could push start it and it be fine... Main relay? Ignitor? Coil? i dont know exactly and each of these items arnt cheap, so i want to make sure. I am going to run a different ECU when i get home to exclude that,, but other than that im at a loss... i feel the starter after i crank it awhile and it is hot. I checked the starter ground and grounds in general and it was all fine. I replaced the cap and rotor to elimate that as well...

Any ideas? is this an obvious isuue that im just not aware of?

 

Add the ignition switch to your list of suspects. Since you can start it by pushing & popping the clutch, maybe the switch doesn't always close the 'on' circuit when it's pushed over in the 'start' position. Try pushing & holding the key different ways when you try starting. Or take the ignition switch out & check with a DMM.

 

If the car is cranking over that would rule out the ignition switch and starter but quit cranking it all day long or you will burn out your starter coil. I would try jump starting it and see if your alternator is charging or take it to some place you trust and see if the battery is any good.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Redlineracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If the car is cranking over that would rule out the ignition switch...</TD></TR></TABLE>No. There's 3 circuits in that switch. ACC is on at the first click. IGN is on at the 2nd click. When you turn it to the 'start' position, it's supposed to MAINTAIN continuity to the IGN circuit while it also closes the starter signal. The switch can get flaky & let the IGN circuit go open sometimes.

The IGN circuit provides +12v power to the main relay, so if it goes open your fuel pump, distributor, injectors, & ECM think you've just turned the car OFF. They don't know that the starter is spinning...

 

yeah but there is a big difference in cranking and hearing a starter click and whine. I don't think it is flakey because he can get it started by other and it will stay running.

Now, if the car can start by "popping the clutch" that tells me a load needs to be taken off the battery in order to start the car. If there aren't enough "cold cranking" amps then maybe the battery isn't holding charge or the alt. isn't charging the battery. The car doesn't cut off of him so I'm thinking the alt is charging AND he can turn the car off and back on if he only lets it sit for a few minutes. hmmm...battery is taking a charge but not holding it. Bad ground? It could be a million things. The ignition, I am 99% sure it isn't. You always leave the 1% off because a customer can ALWAYS prove you wrong

This is the way I would start troubleshooting the problem. Start with the simple, cheapest **** first, move on from there and check to make sure that there is nothing else. Honda dealers and a lot of other auto-electricians seem to want to go the other way. A $65 battery is a lot cheaper than a $300 ignition switch. If the guy wants to check it out anyway, take your meter and find out which wire gets 12v in "ign". turn the key to "start" and find out which wire shows resistance in the "start" position. Thats your starter wire. Now, in the "ign" position, find out which wires now have 12v besides your original power source. Jump those wires together and with another wire tap your starter wire just long enough to start your car and thats it(this info is for educational purposes only)

Sorry for the long post. I hope I helped.

 

thanks you guys... ok.. i will borrow my girlfriends car and jump start it with jumper cables... ill see if that works. I know i can also bring it to Kragen and they can check my battery and alternator... i have been under the impression that if you start the car and while it is running take off the negative terminal, and the car stops, it is the alternator... That sound right?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black 2K &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... i have been under the impression that if you start the car and while it is running take off the negative terminal, and the car stops, it is the alternator... That sound right?

</TD></TR></TABLE>Yeah, unless your car is newer than about 1978...

Anything with an ECU isn't gonna like the voltage spikes that you'll get if you do that. Maybe 9 times out of 10 its OK, but what's a new ECU cost?

 

if you can crank over the car all day long then it isn't the battery.and if it was the alternator then the battery would be dead and the car would not jump start.old cars can jump start and run off the battery if the alternator but fuel injected cars can not cause fuel injectors and other things are ran off the battery just to keep the car running.

i think that you need to check to see if your are geting spark first.

always run checks on everything that makes a motor run befor you start buying things that you think it may be.thats if the car will turn over and not start.

make sure you are getting spark and fuel then go from there.

 

whats an easy way to see if i gt spark... im 99.9% sure that is the case. if it was the fuel then the idle would be horrible or it wouldnt push start right??? So i have been under the thought of that it has to be me n ot getting an initial spark... Im not sure what the mechanism is exactly to get the spark and why it would not get spark initially, but once you bypass ,(popping the clutch) it will get a continuous spark. so what is a simple way to confirm this... i have heard a couple things.. buying something at pepboys that mimicks the spark plug... Taking the spark plug and putting it next to a ground, anything else? anything to stay away from?

And lets say that im not getting spark... what is the process from the tumbler to the spark plug that gives me spark? As far as i know the igition switch goes to the main relay, goes to the starter, goes to the ICM, charges the coil, and motor fires... Am i way off? so is it a break from one of those?

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black 2K &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">whats an easy way to see if i gt spark... im 99.9% sure that is the case. if it was the fuel then the idle would be horrible or it wouldnt push start right??? So i have been under the thought of that it has to be me n ot getting an initial spark... Im not sure what the mechanism is exactly to get the spark and why it would not get spark initially, but once you bypass ,(popping the clutch) it will get a continuous spark. so what is a simple way to confirm this... i have heard a couple things.. buying something at pepboys that mimicks the spark plug... Taking the spark plug and putting it next to a ground, anything else? anything to stay away from?</TD></TR></TABLE>The easy way to see if you have spark is pull a plug wire, put it on a spare spark plug, rest the plug against a good engine-ground, & watch the gap. You could stick a screwdriver or something into the wire & hold that 1/8" away from ground, but you might get a shock . They make spark checkers which just plug between the plug & the wire.


If you didn't have spark it wouldn't push-start. So you must have fuel AND spark under the conditions of push-starting. I don't understand what you're saying about bypassing spark, or continuous spark afterwards??? There has to be spark, at the proper time, in order for it to run. No exceptions. Even push starting.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black 2K &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">And lets say that im not getting spark... what is the process from the tumbler to the spark plug that gives me spark? As far as i know the igition switch goes to the main relay, goes to the starter, goes to the ICM, charges the coil, and motor fires... Am i way off? so is it a break from one of those?</TD></TR></TABLE>The ignition switch closes a circuit to the main relay. Then the main relay closes a couple circuits. These provide power to the ECM, the injectors, the fuel pump, and the distributor. Then when you turn the key to 'start' the switch is supposed to maintain that circuit while also closing another circuit to the starter solenoid.

 

This is from another forum... i think this might explain what i was trying to say when i meant bypassing spark...
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Yes the fuel pumps prims... i mean... i dont know how it cannot be if i can pop the clutch to start it. Know what im saying? I am 99.9% sure fuel isnt the problem. Idle is fine once i pop it, and it runs like it has every other day. The problem i am feeling is getting spark to the spark plugs at startup.. As soon as i am done with my friggin physics midterm today i am going to pull a plug and see if i get spark. I am positive that i will not however, casue that could be the only thing that is prohibiting me from turning the car over...


I dont know the exact mehanism for what happens when you turn the key and how that gets charge to the plugs... And once that happens, what maintains that charge... My problem is not maintaing the charge.. i can run the car. The prob lies in starting the car itself... So if i can figure out that sequence then im golden and will have a easy time diagnosing the problem.

Clear as mud? As of right now i am totally lost however.. you need spark, compression and fuel to make the car go... once i pop the clutch i have all three... but im missing spark at the start up... its finding out exactly what is wrong with athat initial thats the problem. BTW.. i changed out my ECU and still same problem, also jumped the battery just to make sure and that wasnt it either... did the same exact thing..

As for right now, im making sure to park my car on an incline so i can start it
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I just cant understand if i am not getting spark initailly, then what is allowing me to get spark after i pop the clutch... Why is it when i pop it the coil does not get charged.. however when i pop the clutch and go the coil gets charged and i can start it up right after i turn the car off??? The coil can be charged... and that is giving spark to the plugs right? So it seems that whatever initially charged the coil is not working... but when the car starts.. it charges and maintains that charge, or else my car would stop dead on the freeway...

Its just a whole bunch of things going on at one time, and i dont know, becasue of lack of experience, what connects to what...

 

I hope that guy studies for his physics test. Sounds like there's some confusion between 'charge' & 'current'.

The coil 'recharges' in a matter of milliseconds. It has to 'recharge' each time it fires a spark plug. In order to keep doing this, the distributor needs a good supply of 12v power.

When you push-start it you obviously have both fuel & spark. Otherwise it wouldn't start & run. But have you checked yet to see which one is missing when you use the starter? You've tried with jumper cables, right? I take it that didn't work...

I'm gonna hound you again about the ignition switch. -IF- the switch is maintaining the circuit to power the main relay, there's no fundamental difference between push-starting & using the starter. The engine can't tell the difference. The ONLY difference is the position of the ignition switch.

 

i think you might be going somewhere wit hthe ignitio switch... yesterday the car started.. i turned the key and it cranked and cranked... when i turned it almost back it fired right up... And there are times when i have tried to crank it over and it tries to get air when i wiggle the key in the III position... Sound like the switch? Where is it located undr the dash? i looked in the helms and coundnt find it.. maybe im in the wrong section?

 

just pulled the plugs.... plugs look a little white but nothing to whine about... and i get spark...

Now im kinda leaning towards fuel... Ill pull the igition switch, but i do get spark, and the fuel pump primes... i have no idea.. im going to replace the plugs and fuel filter and see where that takes me.. im also leaning a little towards the fuel pump.. i think the fuel pump that i in there is the sock on (95 civic cx) with 110k miles... the ECU is pushing it way more than intended and that might have something to do with it.... Any suggestions?

Also.. i have noticed that when the car is running when there is a load on the car sometimes it will hesitate for a millisecond or two... that is also a problem im sure that has to do with the current situation...

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black 2K &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">i think you might be going somewhere wit hthe ignitio switch... yesterday the car started.. i turned the key and it cranked and cranked... when i turned it almost back it fired right up... And there are times when i have tried to crank it over and it tries to get air when i wiggle the key in the III position... Sound like the switch?</TD></TR></TABLE>That sound a lot like a flaky switch. Sometimes it'll work if you push or pull on the key as you try to find that magic position which closes the right circuits.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Black 2K &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> Where is it located undr the dash? i looked in the helms and coundnt find it.. maybe im in the wrong section?</TD></TR></TABLE>The ignition switch has 2 parts. The key goes into the lock-cylinder part of the switch. The electrical part of the switch is attached to the back of the lock cylinder. I thought it was in the Helm book with the starting circuit.

 

well im taking it to a shop today to see if it is the case.. i really am no electical genious when it comes to this stuff.. give me a motor and im fine. i located the switch, but ill take to somebody who knows it is the switch and can confirm it...

Weirdest thing... went and replaced the plugs and filter... fired right up... it cranked like once... Perfect, and thought i was golden. Tried again.... Failure... F- Just cranked and cranked... If it is the switch... I hear the pump priming, i know i have consistant spark, where is the power not going to that i need it???

 

Well just to give everyone a heads up and hopefully this can get archived for simliar people... The problem was the ignition coil. I guess it was kinda of a freak thing and it is either off or on... but in my case it was giving a weak spark. Enough to run the car, but not enough to start it cold. The shop that i took it to said it was kinda a weird deal, and hasnt seen it happen too often, and could understand my frustration. He said he figured it out by measuring the voltage of the spark and it was well below spec... so check that out if any of you ever have the same type of problems...

Thanks Jim, and to the rest of you for taking the time to look at it, and try to help me out...