Todd Reid

hi guys. check it out:

no more ProSedan (PS); now its Performance Touring (PT)

go to http://www.nasaforums.com and check out the PT subgroup.

basically, it catagorizes all cars based on HP/weight and mods. huge list, must have taken a long time to do....

i am reading up on it right now....

i think it was a good idea for NASA; time will tell, i guess!

todd

Todd Reid

i just finished reading thru the pdf files; hundreds and hundreds of cars listed with all manner of possible mods taken into account.....

i really really like the idea of PT

good work, NASA

todd

94accordsedan

As long as there are no spec tires it should be pretty cool... reading the threads I see there is no mention of spec tires.

Todd Reid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by 94accordsedan &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">As long as there are no spec tires it should be pretty cool... reading the threads I see there is no mention of spec tires. </TD></TR></TABLE>

not only is there no spec tires, there is different bump points depending on if:

1. you decide to race on "street" tires
2. you decide to race on treaded R tires (Toyo RA-1, Hankook Z211, etc)
3. you decide to race on slick grooved R tires (hoosiers, V710 etc)

i am totally all for it!

todd

Willard

I wonder how the H1 cars would fair in that class?

Dented Rx7

so todd, how does the ole probe class vs the ole SE-R Cup cars

Todd Reid

hi harper!

probe gt and se-r start in PTF. the probe gt gets assigned an additional 15 point handicap to start with (more potential in stock config than the se-r, i guess....).

we would need to fill out the pdf worksheets for both cars; but prelimiary thoughts -- i think the classification would be close, considering the bump points you guys would get for having race cams, extra lightening, etc....

i guess NASA did some homework, cause in real life racing situations, we are only separated by a whisker!!!


todd

Knestis

OMG - what a freakin' mess. I might be very wrong but I'm having a hard time believing that people aren't racing because they can't follow a reasonable set of rules for an existing mulit-marque category like IT.

I haven't been there in more than a few years but when ICSCC used to have a "Production" class structure, where cars were classified based on the kind of tires they used and whether thay'd removed the pollution control hardware, it was a fustercluck. You could run a particular year Rabbit in three or four classes and it's my sense that the sanctioning body actually gained ground as it moved toward a system that embraced a less-open kind of structure.

Maybe Rick can chime in here with an update of how that's evolved but putting me in a class depending on what "mods" I've made to my car? Hmm...

K

Chris F

ITR is PTD?!?!

Bastards... It was TTE + 5 pts in TTE.

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Maybe Rick can chime in here with an update of how that's evolved but putting me in a class depending on what "mods" I've made to my car? Hmm...

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

It's a rules clone from Time Trials, giving people the easiest migration path from HPDE -&gt; TTx -&gt; PTx.

I see why they did it. It's part of their "master plan" of giving a nice smooth upgrade plan through the life of a street car to a road racer. Why take people from SCCA when there's free HDPE'ers and eager time trialers already aspiring to go W2W.

Chris, HU and PTB... or probably PTA with the new rules, gotta see.
[sweet, love the new weight rules... 58 points, PTB. I "could compete" there...]

skierd

I see enforcement being a major issue, but I see it being a lot of fun if everyone followed the rules.

tnord

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

not only is there no spec tires, there is different bump points depending on if:

1. you decide to race on "street" tires
2. you decide to race on treaded R tires (Toyo RA-1, Hankook Z211, etc)
3. you decide to race on slick grooved R tires (hoosiers, V710 etc)

i am totally all for it!

todd
</TD></TR></TABLE>

tell me, what is the difference between a 2 or 1/32nd RA1/Z211 and a V710? i haven't read the mess of rule changes, but at least from a contact pacth standpoint, there is no more tread on a worn/shaved down toyo or hankook than a v710 or hoosier

prkiller

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by tnord &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

tell me, what is the difference between a 2 or 1/32nd RA1/Z211 and a V710? i haven't read the mess of rule changes, but at least from a contact pacth standpoint, there is no more tread on a worn/shaved down toyo or hankook than a v710 or hoosier</TD></TR></TABLE>

umm, grip! The V710 and hoosier will still be faster. I would guess that is why they get a bigger penalty.

Honda318dx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by prkiller &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

umm, grip! The V710 and hoosier will still be faster. I would guess that is why they get a bigger penalty.</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeap

JMU R1

That has got to be one of the most crazy ways to class cars I have seen in awhile. While their intent is good the reality will probably be ugly.

Classifying cars by stock p/w ratio is a good start, except some cars have better handling than others so that is immediately going to mess up parity. Then, some cars respond better to engine mods than others, which is going to make things even more difficult. Not to speak of the problem of enforcement.

I suppose they had to do something because Pro Sedan wasn't going anywhere but I don't know if the 'something' should have been this. But who knows, maybe this is a radical idea that could work. At least it allows newer cars rather than forcing that artificial limit for age.

Crack Monkey

Hmmm...

ITA Miata... starts in PTF
+7 point handicap
+6 tires (assuming Toyo is spec)
+2 tire width
+2 passenger seat removal
+1 trunk gutting
+1 front gutting
+1 passenger door gutted
+1 removal of rag-top
+8 shaved head
+1 pulleys
+6 ECU
+1 intake
+2 header
+1 exhaust
+1 catalyst delete
+2 ring/pinion change
+7 shocks
+2 swaybars
+1 brake pads
+2 front splitter/air dam
+3 for typical SCCA/IT cage
+3 Torsen diff (it's not factory base config)
------------------------------
61 points

Bumped 3 classes to PTC, where it gets to race against bone stock Lancer Evos, Cadillac CTS-V, and Porsche 993.

Anybody know what a stock 993 can do at Summit Point? An ITA car will do 1:27. It looks like the other ITA hot cars are in the same (various Tegs and CRXs).

.RJ

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Bumped 3 classes to PTC, where it gets to race against bone stock Lancer Evos, Cadillac CTS-V, and Porsche 993.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Is that on street tires though?

Crack Monkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by .RJ &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Is that on street tires though?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yes, the Evo, Prosche, etc would be rigth off the showroom floor with no factory options. Which is why I'm wondering what laptimes any of them can bang out - I'd wager the stock PTC cars are still faster, but I could be wrong.

Todd Reid

hi crack monkey.

you gotta read the rules some more, i think. you counted up 6 points total for the interior/general stripping. now check out page 9 again, which states that you can also measure the oem curb weight of the car and subtract the actual weight of the prepped racecar, instead of counting up individual points. if it is within 100 lbs. its 1 point. and so on and so on. i think that most ITA miatas are pretty close in raceweight to their oem as-produced weight. so lets call that 1 point instead of 6. Toyo RA-1 is 5, not 6. he would not get any points for a shaved head (assuming it was within factory rebuild tolerances, as would he get no points for engine rebore, etc. i may be mistaken on this, but in IT are you allowed to shave any amount you want in order to get compression? i would expect that it would limited to shaving within "service manual limits"). with those adjustments, i come up with 47 points total. up two classes to PTD, running with cars that start off stock like: BMW E30 M3, Teg-R, older Vettes, older 911s, etc. he still has 12 points to play with, too (although, if an ITA car, he would not want to make any changes that were not easily removable back and forth). basically, that would mean that the ITA miata would be playing with the above cars, if they were almost TOTALLY stock. adding brake pads and R comps to the above cars would be just about all you could do to them and have them remain in PTD. if that was done, you'd have a heavy street Teg Type R/older Vette/older 911 (cause they all would have cages in them, glass, interiors, etc) on a oem suspension racing against the ITA Miata. actually, that would be a really fun race to see! i think the Miata would win, especially over a 25 minute race. the truth of the matter is that almost any car you pick that has been converted to a racecar (and that is not a showroom stock racer) is going to go up at least one if not two classes with all the usual mods they get for raceprepping.

the neat thing about this new system that NASA has arranged is that the driver/builder can pick and choose the mods he wants on his car! and still have a place to race it!

think about it; what if you are a cheap *** and want to race on street tires! obviously, street tires is going to slow you up alot; but now i can take the 7 points i was spending on hoosiers and put in a race cam and lose an additional 140 lbs! would that even it up again? i don't know; maybe on a long track with big straits it would? i can say for certain that i would use less tires, tho!

as i said, the neato thing about this system is that you can pick and choose what you want to do to the car, as opposed to being sort of "artificially" forced into it; for example, in IT, final drives are allowed. headers are allowed. ecu mods are allowed. LSDs are allowed. since it is allowed, all of the big time guys are going to maximize their cars and do it. so, by "mutually assured destruction", you will need to do it also in order to "keep up with the jones". the NASA system is going to let you make the decision on how you want to "spend" your points. heck, maybe just taking all the points you would spend on the lsd, headers, and ecu (11) you could spend on "$$$ free" mods like weight reduction -- you could take out 300 lbs for 11 points!!!!! that would make a pretty big difference in how the car ran! and you would be easier on tires and brakes! and you wouldn't be spending big money on custom FDs, LSDs, handmade headers, etc.!

this is why i think it is revolutionary, and a great idea by NASA.

time will tell if it works out; i hope it does!

todd

Markus

This is interesting. Basically they cloned the Time Trial classes for this. I like the classifications for time trials, but do see some issues for the race groups - mainly the inability to easily transfer an IT car from SCCA to a set NASA class.

Just curious though - how many IT guys were showing up at NASA events and racing in PS? Seemed like only a couple in our region. Most of the IT guys that come over slot into one of the marque-specific classes (Spec Meotter, Honda Challenge, SER cup). So maybe this will help get more people out there.

- Mark

Todd Reid

hi again, guys!

i daily drive an 2003 EVO. its an awesome awesome car. totally stock, if i totally flogged on it, i think i could run 27s at summit. on the oem stock tires/brakes, etc. its a fast fast car.

but i am sure it would not last 25mins like that. it would degrade to at least 30s, maybe 31s by the last 10 mins.

i have owned the car for 2 years, and have taken it to several PCA weekends when i was instructing. i was running it on street tires/brake pads etc. so i have a pretty good feel for what it can do. it is pretty heavy, and the outside front tire takes a tremendous beating. the oem suspension is great for oem, but it lets the car lean quite a bit and really crush the outside front tire. in a real race, it would be all about management of the car....

i also previously ran a almost stock 96 Cobra as my dd. no engine mods at all, only SVO springs and Illumina shocks. even with the upgraded suspension, it destroyed tires and brakes at the track. i also tracked that car at the PCA weekends on street tires and brakes. it was fun, but in a Joey Chitwood kind of way the evo is about 2 secs per lap faster at Pocono North than the Cobra (and as i said, the cobra had a little susp work). i think the cobra could turn a couple of 29s at summit in almost stock form, but it would degrade quickly, too.

like i said, it would make for interesting racing, but i think the little Davids would beat the big Goliaths.

todd

PS one big caveat; if it were raining at Summit, i would pick a stock EVO over the miata hands down!

Crack Monkey

Todd,

Hmm, curb weight for a base 1994 is 2293. Are publuished curb weights dry or wet?

ITA weight is 2380. Subtract 175 for the driver (NASA specs weights without driver) and it's 2205.

You're right, one or two points for weight, instead of my 6ish.

You'd still get 4 points for a .040 over engine, as that's greater than the 1st FSM spec. The compression ratio points depend if the FSM specs a minimum thickness - if none is speced to can shave to increase the C/R by .5 points (IIRC).

Anyways, I wasn't trying to bash the system, just "thinking out loud".

Crack Monkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">think about it; what if you are a cheap *** and want to race on street tires! obviously, street tires is going to slow you up alot; but now i can take the 7 points i was spending on hoosiers and put in a race cam and lose an additional 140 lbs! would that even it up again? i don't know; maybe on a long track with big straits it would? i can say for certain that i would use less tires, tho!
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Interestingly, when I was running Spec RX-7, there was a movement to create a Super Spec-7 - basically a normal SRX-7 with a header and giant carb, but the same low-tech suspension and 205 Toyo/Kumho. That would have been fun. It never got past the "planning" stage.

Hmmm... uber-miata on stock suspension...
7 points - handicap
8 points - 2.0l stroker
4 points - headwork
8 points - compression ratio increase
6 points - ECU
4 points - misc intake, TB, etc
-----------------
37 points, so that's PTE, against near stock 944S, MR2 Turbo, etc. The Miata would have 220rwhp. Hmmm, that could be fun.

Crack Monkey

I have a feeling I won't get any work done today as I work through all the possible Miata classifications. And I'm not even racing.

Todd Reid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Crack Monkey &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I have a feeling I won't get any work done today as I work through all the possible Miata classifications. And I'm not even racing. </TD></TR></TABLE>

sorry 'bout that, Crack Monkey!!!!

my friend Brian, who drives the old #71 Protege, called me last night around 11 pm. he also owns a totally stock, perfect body 85 RX-7, and a stock 96 Miata. he had printed out a ream of those calc sheet pdfs, and had been working on them for hours and hours..... trying to figure out the best combo, for each car.....

heheheheh!

todd