JMU R1

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cheaters can cheat in any class. I don't think this ruleset makes much of a difference.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Cheaters can cheat in any class but the ruleset makes a lot of difference. Think of it this way, there is always someone who can break into a house, but do you want to leave all your doors and windows open and the keys in your car?

With rulesets there are ways to make it easier or harder to cheat and easier or harder to enforce the rules.

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">one other thing i was thinking about -- this is classing where you could run a "slow" swapped honda (or other car for that matter) and be classed competitively....

for instance, a crx (2100 lbs w/driver) with a stock ZC swap (135 whp). instead of H1 (get killed there), you could do a dyno pull and they would put you in PTE to start off with (add mods from there to suspension, etc, and probably end up in PTD). good chance of racing well in PTD!

or a fairly stock B16 powered hatch (2200 lbs) and 170 whp. puts you in PTD to start, end up in PTC after additional mods....

the pdf rule book has tables from 7 lbs/hp up to 21 lbs/hp. something for everyone!

this would be a good place for swapped honda cars without a ton of developement invested in their drivetrains.....

just a thought; i have seen this batted around on the honda message boards -- "i have a stock LS swap, why can't i run in H3 instead of H1????". well, this answers the need, i think!</TD></TR></TABLE>
Depending on which way the wind blows, this could spell the end for H1/HU. Especially if the "slow H1" cars end up in the same race group as the rest of the Hondas in H2-5...

In PT, I might: get to run the car EXACTLY the way I want to, possably be competetive and still get to raced with my H4 buddies...

577HondaPrelude

http://www.nasa-tt.com/rules.php

The TT calculator is up with the new rules. The PT calculator will be the same as far as I can tell.

Knestis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Cheaters can cheat in any class. I don't think this ruleset makes much of a difference. ... </TD></TR></TABLE>

...but with most class structures, I KNOW what my competitors can and can't do to their cars. Now, the CAN do damn near anything, but to have any idea whether they are legal or not, I have to know the SUM of all of the changes that they've made.

If I see a carbon hood on an IT car, I know it's illegal. If I see one on a PT car, I need to know if the points from that hood gave that particular package enough additional points, to bump it into the next class.

I REALLY hope that the organizers are going to step up and police the math from the very outset, because the system really makes it tough for the competitors to protest anythinng. Maybe that's the point - to shift the responsibility for legal cars from the competitors to the stewards. That MIGHT be a good thing, if they are willing to take on the job - but I'm dubious.

K

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...but with most class structures, I KNOW what my competitors can and can't do to their cars. Now, the CAN do damn near anything, but to have any idea whether they are legal or not, I have to know the SUM of all of the changes that they've made.</TD></TR></TABLE>

but with this class, all you need is his worksheet of points that he submits (and his declared min. weight) to figure out if he's cheating. With the hood popped and a window open you can see just about anything you need (suspension, motor, cage, ballast, etc.)

If I want to run higher compression pistons or an illegal crankshaft in either class, it's not going to be obvious without a real protest.

Someone that would run a CF hood in IT isn't the cheater that you need to worry about... is it? I'm more worried about the guy running with hidden headwork, illegal valves or cams, etc.

-Chris

TeamSlowdotOrg

That's a good point, where are all these all-knowing stewards coming from? Maybe NASA is in the enviable position of having plenty of volunteers for that kind of job, but I know SCCA isn't, which is why the lovely self-policing system we have has to work.

Edit: OOOOHHHHKaaayy...I'm starting to get it. This is cool. You have to submit a breakdown of all modifications before you can get a logbook or whatever it is NASA uses to pass cars for raceworthiness, and that modification book is public? In that case, very cool.

Knestis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">but with this class, all you need is his worksheet of points that he submits (and his declared min. weight) to figure out if he's cheating. ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

So from an administrative standpoint, how will this work? We have to submit a sheet at each race, which is then kept in a public place for the duration? I guess I was figuring that I submitted the form at the beginning of the season and then updated it only as/if I made changes. I did see that somewhere, didn't I?

K

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote"> We have to submit a sheet at each race, which is then kept in a public place for the duration? </TD></TR></TABLE>

Time Trials was doing it that way, though I couldn't tell you how easy/hard it would be to get someone's sheet at a race. It seems that this is the only way to do it, as tires/mods can change through the season as people are "tuning"...

-Chris

Knestis

The more I think about it, the more I think that would solve one big problem. It had better be in the plan to make a decision about this, and get the policies and procedures in place, before we are at the track.

I guess that it's just going to be up the the competitors to plan ahead and decide if they want to get in the business of jumping classes during the year. How about this - can I declare myself into a higher class in anticipation of modifying up to it during the season? This in lieu of reverse-cheating and lying about mods to get put in a higher class.

We did that at a hillclimb once, having gotten tired of beating all of the D Prepared cars with our rally-prepared 8v Golf GTI II. We had repainted it during the off season, so we stuck a 16v logo on the back, and entered it in CP instead, so we could race with some faster cats. The tech inspector asked us if the braided injector lines were legal (nitrous, you guys?) but apparently didn't know that he was looking at a plain ol' 8v.

K

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How about this - can I declare myself into a higher class in anticipation of modifying up to it during the season? </TD></TR></TABLE>

To accumulate points through a season you need to stay in the same class... so if you anticipate collecting points in a higher class, or normally run in a higher class but are borrowing a lower-classed car, you can class yourself higher to get points in your preferred class.

One way to do it, would be to declare your minimum weight 400 lbs less than it really is, which will buy you approximately 20 points. But I don't think there is any issue with taking a borrowed Spec Miata and running PTU just to accumulate points in PTU.

-Chris

Honda318dx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

hi corey!

remember to do your worksheet; you won't be in PTG in your accord, not after you calculate all the points for weight reduction, tires, headers, exhaust, intake, shocks, springs, antiroll bars, ecu, etc. you will at least move into PTF, i would think, maybe even PTE (barely; i don't know all what you have done to the accord).

this classing system should be good for the accord, i think (you don't start off with any "bonus" * points).....

todd</TD></TR></TABLE>

I did the calcs, yeap, only PTG..

Knestis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Chris F &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... One way to do it, would be to declare your minimum weight 400 lbs less than it really is, which will buy you approximately 20 points. But I don't think there is any issue with taking a borrowed Spec Miata and running PTU just to accumulate points in PTU.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Might be a good idea to include language to this effect in the rules, if that's the case.

I suspect that this is going to be symptomatic of NASA evolving toward an organization that sanctions a "national championship," but some anticipation of how a rule set looks through the eyes of a bunch of competitors hell-bent on winning might be useful. The PT concept looks SUPER from the perspective of a group of people oriented on simply "getting out there," but it's going to take on a different flavor if it catches and competition gets a little thicker.

This is not to say that it's all bad. I'm getting my head around it, gotten past "this is stoopid" and graduated to "academic concern."

K

Dented Rx7

actually Corey, the accord would be classed in E2, H4 crosses over to E2

same as SE-R cup ;-)

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Our accord would be classed in PTG.. yea, E3 in enduros, but crossover from H4 to enduro would be E1.. Guess which class I'm going into in Feb.. haha..</TD></TR></TABLE>

Crack Monkey

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dented Rx7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">actually Corey, the accord would be classed in E2, H4 crosses over to E2

same as SE-R cup ;-)</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, but he can enter the Accord as PTG/E3 because of the points system. That's one goofy side-effect of the system - cars that run in the "spec" series (HC, 944, etc) may be able to classify down for enduros based on points (particularly if the car isn't fully prepped, as is the case with the Accord).

577HondaPrelude

someone talk to Kumho and see if they want to give out a sweet contigance for this non-spic tire race group