Todd Reid

one other thing i was thinking about -- this is classing where you could run a "slow" swapped honda (or other car for that matter) and be classed competitively....

for instance, a crx (2100 lbs w/driver) with a stock ZC swap (135 whp). instead of H1 (get killed there), you could do a dyno pull and they would put you in PTE to start off with (add mods from there to suspension, etc, and probably end up in PTD). good chance of racing well in PTD!

or a fairly stock B16 powered hatch (2200 lbs) and 170 whp. puts you in PTD to start, end up in PTC after additional mods....

the pdf rule book has tables from 7 lbs/hp up to 21 lbs/hp. something for everyone!

this would be a good place for swapped honda cars without a ton of developement invested in their drivetrains.....

just a thought; i have seen this batted around on the honda message boards -- "i have a stock LS swap, why can't i run in H3 instead of H1????". well, this answers the need, i think!

todd

Willard

a vx eg with a si tranny =

stock motor + better gearing

JohnW

How in the name of G-D can anyone ever Police this?????

I can appricate the amount of work it took and big Kudos to those who did it, but OMG this is a cluster...

Simple is better. What's wrong with the S-clubs T1, T2, T3 etc system????????

John- who read the first half of the rules and gave up.



Modified by JohnW at 12:01 PM 1/27/2006

Honda318dx

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JohnW &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How in the name of G-D can anyone ever Police this?????</TD></TR></TABLE>

Agree, although I like the idea..

Evan55

very interesting. not too bad in concept, but in practice I think it will be extremely difficult to maintain and even worse to enforce. This could get UGLY in a national race.
lots of loopholes and gray areas too

577HondaPrelude

I love the idea of non-spec class for many different cars to race, but I agree the rules are going to be vary hard to police. If they get the Kumho deal for this class for the national race then you MA guys would run in PT and not buy toyo and STILL win some $$.

FWIW I did the math and my car built to HC2 trim falls in PTC


Modified by 577HondaPrelude at 2:10 PM 1/27/2006

Dented Rx7

yes its tough to police....but the advantage is T1, T2, T3 has a limited # of cars with set mods..........the beauty of this system is any car, any set of mods whatever you want to do.......

hell, if there wasn't SE-Rcup, i'd run the car on falken azenis and save my self 5 or 6 points........my friend has an SE-R with those on it and with his better suspension, it make almost as much grip as me.....plus the tires would last a season or two ,

plus their cheaper

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JohnW &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">How in the name of G-D can anyone ever Police this?????

I can appricate the amount of work it took and big Kudos to those who did it, but OMG this is a cluster...

Simple is better. What's wrong with the S-clubs T1, T2, T3 etc system????????

John- who read the first half of the rules and gave up.

Modified by JohnW at 12:01 PM 1/27/2006</TD></TR></TABLE>

JohnW

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Dented Rx7 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the beauty of this system is any car, any set of mods whatever you want to do.......

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Oh, I <U>think</U> I understand.

However, I'd guess 3/4 of those cars no one would take the time (and expense) to build anyway.

Here's my short list to build for PT-

Chevy S10 Extreme
Chevy Monte Carlo SS
1990 Thunderbird
or maybe a
PT Cruiser

Yep, I'm gonna build grandams ol' T-bird to race that Porsche Cup 993 thingy.

This just doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

I'm really not that smart so please tell me if I'm missing something?


John- who really doesn't care either way.


Modified by JohnW at 3:50 PM 1/27/2006

tom91ita

looks like a mess but it is getting positive responses from the PS forum at NASA's forums.

just wait until they are told what tire they have to run after they think they know what the rules are.

tom

rules, there ain't no stinking rules, only guidelines that get changed later.

Crack Monkey

Instead of different PT classes, maybe they should just handicap at the start line, like in bracket racing at the drag strip - now that would be interesting.

Like others, I like the idea and think it should work fine as a regional-only concept. At a National Championship, I'm not so sure.

Knestis

I'm one of those IT crossover guys. When I invite someone else to do the same, how in blazes is he/she going to know which class to enter? The learning curve on the rules is going to be horrific.

What about when I make a change that would have been from "not-so-prepared" to "built-to-the-rules" under a typical rule set? For example (and I don't know if this is an accurate example or not) but I was in PS3 without a header on my Golf. If I installed one, I was still in PS3 but should be more competitive. Simple enough.

In the new scheme, I conceivably change class as I work to develop my car over the course of the season. I run two races in PTL, make an improvement and get bumped to PTK for two races, do some more stuff and run the final two events in PTJ. Viola! I qualify for nationals in NONE of them.

I see the argument of easing the transition from TT to handle-rubbin' but I have a fear that there are REASONS that this kind of approach doesn't appear in any successful racing series (that I know of)...

K

EDIT - we did a cash-prize, multi-class handicap fun race one year at Seattle, with cars leaving the hot pits one at a time, based on estimates of the time it would take them to complete a set number of laps at their regular race fast lap. In theory, they would all get to the finish line side-by-side but in practice, we didn't allow for the time it takes to make a pass, even on a slower car. It WAS entertaining, though...

Todd Reid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">When I invite someone else to do the same, how in blazes is he/she going to know which class to enter? The learning curve on the rules is going to be horrific.</TD></TR></TABLE>


hi kirk! hope all is well with you!

all the prospective racer needs to do is fill out this worksheet:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/r...m.pdf

it took me about 30 minutes to fill it out on my Probe; then you look at this class/rules form:

http://www.nasaproracing.com/r...s.pdf

find your cars base class, add up the points from the worksheet, and it tells you what class you will be in.

as for changing your car thruout the year; i guess that would hurt your chances for garnering a championship; best bet would be to make wholesale large changes that result in big points swings in the off season, i think....

oh, and EMRA runs their 4 hour enduro "bracket racing handicap style" based on your class; they send out the slowest classes first, and the faster ones later; makes for a really fun and interesting battle for the overall win!

happy car building!

todd

Knestis

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... all the prospective racer needs to do is fill out this worksheet: ...</TD></TR></TABLE>

Holy crap. Is the IRS sponsoring this class or what? Will there be a Dept. of Internal Revenue windshield banner required?

K

tom91ita

i'm a cross-over also. i looked at the thing and it somewhat intimidating.

but which PT class does my '85 CRX start in?

PTE (not likely, there is a reference to a 1.6L although it may be referencing the VTEC?)

PTF (maybe what is the ESi)

PTG (probably but it says just CRX, maybe DX?)

PTH (not likely since it mentions the HF's although no mention of 1st vs. 2nd gen's)

so even if i can come up with the points and how far to bump the car up the class structure, i don't know where i am when i started.

tom

just follow the yellow brick road? ???

Knestis

Seriously.

"Only nec.if using the alternate method of calc. wt. reduction pts." ...??

And I get different tire points when it rains, or when I don't care enough to use the Hoosiers and decide to burn up shaved Toyos instead.

More points for a cage safer than the minimum CCR requirements?

Wotta pain.

K

EDIT - and we get multiple points for "non-OEM adjustable shocks/struts with threaded strut body," "Threaded adjustable spring perches," "non OEM or modified coil springs," "non-OEM adjustable shocks/struts?" Or is this "choose only one of the following?"



Modified by Knestis at 8:47 PM 1/27/2006

JoeLee

Actually it will be even simpler than the Tax form you have now ... there will be an online calculator. Plug in your car, check off the mods and it figures for you. We had it for the NASA-X system this whole thing came from and they have it for the TT system already.

JMU R1

You know, now that I've mulled this over a bit, this isn't so bad. I think it could possibly get a more people with oddball cars that don't particularly fit well in a class to show up.

However, the problem is that this will not scale well. When you start getting larger fields and more people wanting to win badly you will have a tough time policing things and maintaining any semblance of parity.

That said, Pro Sedan isn't well subscribed in our region, so having a scalability problem down the road is preferable to having a low car count problem today. At the same time I'm fundamentally more for long term growth rather than short term gain. This will be interesting to see how this plays out for sure.

Knestis

Assuming that I guessed right on the suspension options, the good news is that I ended up in the middle of a points range regardless of tire choice (40-59 pts), so there's no issue in my case of just sneaking over a class break with a tire or other change.

I still run the risk of falling afoul of the "undeclared mods" rule, if I submit the paperwork with Toyo points and run Hoosiers. Maybe it would be a good idea for series stewards to apply a penalty only if undeclared points would have put a car into the next higher class? That would allow some latitude for between-race changes.

It's also going to be necessary - eventually - to have some kind of public record of what points each car has declared, so there's some reasonable way to know what the competition is supposed to be running.

FWIW, the Golf starts in PTG and ends up in PTE, with pretty typical IT modifications. That's E3 for the long ones, even though I'm missing my favorite in February.

It's interesting - if academic - to note that I could make the car go a hell of a lot faster for exactly the same points. For example, I get the same points (+8) for the IT-legal .5 cr bump, as I would if I banged it up to 12.5:1. I run a stock New Beetle tubular exhaust manifold, aftermarket cat, and custom pipe/muffler; and pay the same points price as I would with a Puckett custom header, no cat, and tuned-length pipe.

I agree with Gerald that it's going to get really interesting if this takes off. Playing the points to maximum effect is going to be a fulltime job, and enforcing/protesting legality could get ugly, if people start to really care about who is in front of whom.

K

turfer

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Knestis &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">OMG - what a freakin' mess. I might be very wrong but I'm having a hard time believing that people aren't racing because they can't follow a reasonable set of rules for an existing mulit-marque category like IT.

I haven't been there in more than a few years but when ICSCC used to have a "Production" class structure, where cars were classified based on the kind of tires they used and whether thay'd removed the pollution control hardware, it was a fustercluck. You could run a particular year Rabbit in three or four classes and it's my sense that the sanctioning body actually gained ground as it moved toward a system that embraced a less-open kind of structure.

Maybe Rick can chime in here with an update of how that's evolved but putting me in a class depending on what "mods" I've made to my car? Hmm...

K</TD></TR></TABLE>

Your right Kirk. It is much simpler now. The only class bump item that remains to date is running slicks over DOT will bump you up one class. Beyond the pollution control crap, I have forgotten, thankfully, all the other class bump crap that was allowed. The other thing that has changed is each class has set lb/hp (using factory HP ratings), instead of the old system that had lb/hp windows.
People can choose run up or down a class as long as they make weight.

These new NASA classes will be hard to police. I sure am glad I am not out there trying to enforce the rules.


Rick

Honda318dx

Our accord would be classed in PTG.. yea, E3 in enduros, but crossover from H4 to enduro would be E1.. Guess which class I'm going into in Feb.. haha..

FLATOUTRACING

Those Saturday trophy and prize parties at Summit are going to take 5 hours with all these classes

Todd Reid

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Honda318dx &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Our accord would be classed in PTG.. yea, E3 in enduros, but crossover from H4 to enduro would be E1.. Guess which class I'm going into in Feb.. haha..</TD></TR></TABLE>

hi corey!

remember to do your worksheet; you won't be in PTG in your accord, not after you calculate all the points for weight reduction, tires, headers, exhaust, intake, shocks, springs, antiroll bars, ecu, etc. you will at least move into PTF, i would think, maybe even PTE (barely; i don't know all what you have done to the accord).

this classing system should be good for the accord, i think (you don't start off with any "bonus" * points).....

todd

Chris F

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by turfer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">These new NASA classes will be hard to police. I sure am glad I am not out there trying to enforce the rules. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Cheaters can cheat in any class. I don't think this ruleset makes much of a difference.

There WERE some ambiguities in the old time trial classes that threw me for a loop... for instance, my car is turbo, so do I have to take points for header, turbo, wastegate, blowoff valve, intercooler? The new rules clarified that a bit.

Compared to the old Time Trials classification they fixed some things w.r.t. weight reduction. Also, no points for REDUCING compression is nice.

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Todd Reid &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">the neat thing about this new system that NASA has arranged is that the driver/builder can pick and choose the mods he wants on his car! and still have a place to race it!

...a great idea by NASA. </TD></TR></TABLE>
Amen.

TeamSlowdotOrg

If I wanted a fun racecar to build and didn't care about tight competition but just wanted some close racing once in a while, this is exactly what I want. Lots of room to play with ideas, tinker, and choose whatever you can find for cheap.

I think I'll go and play with the 328i for a while.