stormy

I've seen people make custom ones that arch near the top to give another inch but I would think that would play havoc on the suspesnion for anything other than a racecar

RagingAngel

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Are these things being sold anywhere in the US that anyone knows of? Whether I would try them or not, I would be interested to see what a set would cost delivered to the door.


</TD></TR></TABLE>

I am aware of only one place that may still have a set.... http://www.aj-racing.com/

If you are referring to the A-Sport arms that is.... they def. aren't cheap...

Any comments about the pictured J's hardware up top Lee? Or did b20zej1 pretty much nail it down?

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RagingAngel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Any comments about the pictured J's hardware up top Lee? Or did b20zej1 pretty much nail it down?</TD></TR></TABLE>
His comments seem pretty good to me. I have no personal experience with changing geometry and any ramifications that go with it so I'll bow to those who have it. I would be interested potentially and the opportunity to raise a too low roll center if the gain seemed to match with the budget.

revolt_allmotor

Was thinking about these while driving today and had this idea. First of all, this is based on the concept that raising the roll center via spacing the ball joint from the LCA will actually benefit handling/grip.

With that in mind, wouldn't it be safer to machine a nice little spacer and have it welded to the top of the LCA ball joint perch (or seat or whatever the **** you call it)? Then just machine an indent into the bottom for the nut. If you have good machine shop and welding hookups or can do one or both yourself (most racers should have answered yes to one of these questions) it would probably cost around $100. And it seems like it would be stronger...

CRX Lee

If you are talking about making this change to the arm itself and leaving the ball joint in it's normal mount on the hub, then you are really not making any change.

You are faking the angle of the arm but you aren't moving the actual pivoting points of the suspension so there will be no net effect. The value of this lowered ball joint is that you are lengthening the upright and moving the balljoint closer to the ground and therefore lower by comparison to the inboard LCA bushing. Your design would keep the upright length the same.

revolt_allmotor

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by CRX Lee &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">If you are talking about making this change to the arm itself and leaving the ball joint in it's normal mount on the hub, then you are really not making any change.

You are faking the angle of the arm but you aren't moving the actual pivoting points of the suspension so there will be no net effect. The value of this lowered ball joint is that you are lengthening the upright and moving the balljoint closer to the ground and therefore lower by comparison to the inboard LCA bushing. Your design would keep the upright length the same.</TD></TR></TABLE>

oh. Now I get it. Thanks.

MooFX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RagingAngel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Count on A&J Racing to give a review in the near future...

They just put it on one of the "shop" cars.....

</TD></TR></TABLE>


Here's somewhat of a review on the peice installed, with a firsthand experience writeup, both from street and track experience.
http://aj-racing.com/AJR%20K20A%20DC2R.php

-Justin

Jaker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MooFX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
http://aj-racing.com/AJR%20K20A%20DC2R.php

-Justin</TD></TR></TABLE>

I don't see anything whatsoever about the roll center lowering balljoints.

stormy

wat look close look at those roll centers - the car corners so flat the motor flew the fawk up out that piece y0! - they had to replace it with a new kseries

MooFX

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jaker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I don't see anything whatsoever about the roll center lowering balljoints.</TD></TR></TABLE>

My bad, posted the wrong link.

here's the right one, it's in the Type R forum.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1227902

solo-x

no offense but i really don't think someone who changing trailing arm bushings and suspension as well can really comment on how the roll center change affected the car. placebo affect aside, there are way to many other changes involved. additionally, the car is not setup like most racecars are setup with more rear spring then front spring. besides, monkey bars in your track car are the number one indicator of a stunna rice boy, not a serious track effort with a testing budget and quality data aq. at least you actually drove them on a track though. most would just drive them on the street and then say something like "m4d t1zz1t3 y0!".

nate

RagingAngel

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no offense but i really don't think someone who changing trailing arm bushings and suspension as well can really comment on how the roll center change affected the car. placebo affect aside, there are way to many other changes involved. additionally, the car is not setup like most racecars are setup with more rear spring then front spring. besides, monkey bars in your track car are the number one indicator of a stunna rice boy, not a serious track effort with a testing budget and quality data aq. at least you actually drove them on a track though. most would just drive them on the street and then say something like "m4d t1zz1t3 y0!".

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

I fully realize racers here set their cars up with a stiffer spring out back, but does it mean it works for everybody or people who have a "lighter" spring are automatically unworthy and their opinions are unwarranted? FWIW....There are a LOT of cars with a "JDM" setup albeit in Japan that can turn.... but nobody seems to take notice of such things as staggered tire setups etc...etc...

Greyout

if you are trying to raise the roll center, wouldn't it be a lot easier to move the UCA down on the chassis end?

Flux

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">... additionally, the car is not setup like most racecars are setup with more rear spring then front spring. besides, monkey bars in your track car are the number one indicator of a stunna rice boy, not a serious track effort with a testing budget and quality data aq. </TD></TR></TABLE>

Good grief...

stormy

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">no offense but i really don't think someone who changing trailing arm bushings and suspension as well can really comment on how the roll center change affected the car. placebo affect aside, there are way to many other changes involved. additionally, the car is not setup like most racecars are setup with more rear spring then front spring. besides, monkey bars in your track car are the number one indicator of a stunna rice boy, not a serious track effort with a testing budget and quality data aq. at least you actually drove them on a track though. most would just drive them on the street and then say something like "m4d t1zz1t3 y0!".
nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

no one is ever happy - it's a cusco cage - people have rolled there cars with them and faired far better than without - also it's not a race car - nor is he caliming that it is

And I doubt anyone with a testing budget would go to the track over a 225 dollar part anyway

And last time I checked even the almighty type-r which has been dubbed the best handling FWD car ever many times over has softer rear springs - and the s2000 has staggered tire sizes despite sharing the miatas 50/50 weight balance

solo-x

apparently you all missed the "no offense".

take off the blinders of sensitivity. he 1) changed several things on the car, not just the RC 2) isn't serious enough about performance driving to select equipment based on performance instead of looks 3) did absolutely zero data aq. his statements are all subjective and his subjectivity is definitely not slanted the same way mine is.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MooFX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">on the ALEX trailing arm bush:
stability is increased around the turns, also. Power transition to the ground has also smoothened and increased by a noticeable amount. Overall it feels like a different car when you first jump in to drive it, in a good way.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

so you're telling me you have no problems with this statement? i do.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by MooFX &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Track driving impression:

Tested it at Pacific Raceway on monday the 25th. Turn in response is excellent, body roll is minimal with the J's RCA in. Stability in the turns as well is very impressive. The car felt very neutral (also testing out the T1R coilovers prototype at the moment). Definitely no complaints at all, I'd highly recommend these setups for any other track ****** out there.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

roll reduced because of the change in rc height. so i suppose the change in suspension didn't have any affect at all? it is a nice post, lots of pretty pictures and bling, but absolutely no value for 99% of the people in this forum. sorry, that's the way it is.

has anybody but scott actually measured their RC height? i haven't yet but mostly because due to the rules of my class i couldn't change it anyhow. i ran into the same problem with the swapped uca's for increased caster. everyone seemed to thing is was the best mod ev4r. i tried it out, actually measured everything, and discovered it hurt my setup more then it helped. now i'm a little more picky about what claims i listen to, what claims i ignore, and what claims i feel like calling out.

nate - ran "JDM" spring rates last year, ran tire stagger last year.... i'm clearly prejudiced against this stuff, DOWN WITH MR. JDM!!!

Greyout

I thought the lower the roll center, the STEEPER the camber curve?

whats wrong with an underground roll center in the front?

solo-x

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Greyout &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought the lower the roll center, the STEEPER the camber curve?

whats wrong with an underground roll center in the front?</TD></TR></TABLE>

rc location and camber curve aren't directly related. a lower rc with all else remaining equal might make the camber curve steeper, but i couldn't say for sure one way or the other without spending some time playing with rc location and camber curves. when i actually get my formula ford or DSR that stuff will start to become more interesting to me.

after all the reading i did on RC heights and how it affects the chassis i decided that RC heights above ground are BAD. below ground isn't too bad, provided it isn't incredibly far from my cg. lateral migration under load can be bad, but i don't have the tools to accurately predict my lateral RC migration and still no legal method of adjustment. i've seen several sources that suggest on your typical h/a car the rc moves at a near 1:1 relation to cg. as such, i've given up worrying about my rc location and just focused on getting my cg as low as i possibly could without running out of suspension stroke (something the j's kit will use up) and without ending up with so much front roll stiffness to get the front tires happy that i couldn't get enough rear roll stiffness to balance the pig out. god fwd production tubs suck!

nate - isn't an expert by any means or measure

Jaker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Greyout &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I thought the lower the roll center, the STEEPER the camber curve?
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Have a look at the geometry and think about it for a couple seconds. If the lower arm is already pointing upwards from the inboard mounting point on the chassis to the bottom of the spindle, what will happen to the "effective" length of the arm as the wheel travels upwards? It will get shorter. This will pull the bottom of the spindle inwards, negating some of the camber gain caused by the shortening of the "effective" length of the upper control arm as it travels upwards.

Now if your lower arm in its static state (weight of car sitting on the wheels) is pointing downwards from the inboard mounting point on the chassis to the bottom of the spindle, as the wheel travels upwards, the arm will "effectively" get longer as it travels upwards, pushing the bottom of the spindle out, and increasing the camber gain.

I'm doing a little more research, and am seriously considering getting a set of these to try out.

ryan12321

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Greyout &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you are trying to raise the roll center, wouldn't it be a lot easier to move the UCA down on the chassis end?</TD></TR></TABLE>

I like this idea. Assuming that changing the RC is a good idea. This is really the first time I've even looked into it. I'll definately be doing some more reading as to what effects it would have.

Cory Matthews

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Greyout &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">if you are trying to raise the roll center, wouldn't it be a lot easier to move the UCA down on the chassis end?</TD></TR></TABLE>

no becasue your lower control arm on the chasis side will still be pointing down.


best idea i can think of other than RCA's is moving the entire spindle.
the idea has been around for a long time, american trucks use that. they "raise" the spindle so the car trucks sit lower, and have the suspenion geometry unaltered.

i've been avoiding telling you guys this because i wanted to cash in on the idea, for hondas but oh well. = P

Jaker

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by b20zej1 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
i've been avoiding telling you guys this because i wanted to cash in on the idea, for hondas but oh well. = P</TD></TR></TABLE>

There was a company that tried that a bunch of years ago. They had drop spindles for the front, and drop trailing arms for the back. They were kinda pricey, and didn't sell very well. Company sold out to somebody else, and the new owner dropped the product after about a year.

Can't remember the name of the company. They had an article in Sport Compact car a long time ago.

Cory Matthews

ghey.......i betcha if j's racing made some they'd sell like hot cakes.

CRX Lee

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Jaker &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">There was a company that tried that a bunch of years ago. They had drop spindles for the front, and drop trailing arms for the back. They were kinda pricey, and didn't sell very well. Company sold out to somebody else, and the new owner dropped the product after about a year.

Can't remember the name of the company. They had an article in Sport Compact car a long time ago.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I can't remember the name of the company either but they were in the Pacific Northwest and the company was not only sold but it was broken into segments and sold. The part that did the Honda parts never resurfaced. I met them and saw the products at the SEMA show. Although it was designed for drag racing, I was very intrigued and we talked a lot about how these parts would do for road racing. The design of the rear arms was definitely of concern for hard cornering side loading but the iconcept was good. The fabricated front uprights were very well thought out as they had a shortened upright and the bearing/hub was located higher than stock between the two ball joints so the UCA was much more level as was the LCA and allowed the car to sit lower and decrease CV angles. The parts were extremely expensive for an amateur budget (mine at least) plus I did not have a running car at the time so it went nowhere. I was bummed to see the company disassembled, part of it went to a Fiero tuner in FL who has sold it since as well.

RR98ITR

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">...without running out of suspension stroke (something the j's kit will use up)....</TD></TR></TABLE>

In droop?

Lowering the LBJ would - in the classic H-T sense - "increase travel".

"So you mean it works like the GC Upper Mount?"

"Uh, yeah, I guess you could say that."


Scott, who remembers "Ryane"...see - I think where they went wrong was in having a nasty blow up doll in their booth instead of a nasty girl (or two or three)...