I'm awfully confused about a lot of what's going on here. But all that I'm confused about has been addressed, just not answered, so I'm leaving it alone. The only thing I'll say is this: coming from another younger guy (23) looking to get into racing down the line, I'm not worried about what I'm driving now. The car is fun, which is a bonus, but I'm spending all my money on getting my *** to the track. The fact that you seem to have a very small budget doesn't help, as if you're spending all your money building/fixing the car, what money will be left over to actually pay for the entry fees? As RJ said, improve the driver before improving the car.

Cliffs: Shut up about ITA rules and go to an HPDE.

 

So, just to summarize...

1. I am on a limited budget
2. I realize that I could race competitively in ITB or ITC for $5000
3. I realize that I could race competitively in ITA (Chuck's car) or ITS (Karl's car) for $14000
4. I realize I want to build an unproven car, and for about $14000 it still won't be competitive, meaning that if I get in trouble I might not be able to sell it
5. I realize there are a bunch of experienced guys telling me what I want to do is a bad idea
6. I realize all these things, and I'm going to stick with my plan anyway

Hey. Have fun with that.
But I really, really, really think you have not even the slightest crumb of a clue what you're getting into. And I'm willing to bet $20 with anyone right now that you'll never finish this project you want to do.
I'm betting nobody here, except maybe you CJ, will take that bet.

Good luck. You're seriously going to need it.

 

CJ should build an H1 car...there is money in that I hear

 

Instead of IBTL, I think it is better off that we just reply with IWAJ (I Wont Acknowledge JRDbuilt) whenever he say something stupid here.

IWAJ

 

Scott,

Just because it's an open and closed case to you, doesn't mean that everyone else is gonna see it your way.

It's about more than dollars and sense, it's about passion.

Here's a young guy just starting to pursue his dreams in motorsport, and here you are alienating him with your logic.

Don't you see - It doesn't matter that you're right. This guy is ruled by his heart. That's the sort of thing that will carry him farther than logic says he has any business going.

Don't come down on him with your hard *** listen kid I'm trying to help you condescension you cynical old bastard.

Scott, who is so glad he finally grew out of his stupid phase....<returns to polishing his jackstands>

 

scott .... sean... say what you will. and ill take you up on that 20 dollar bet for good measure lol. now let's make this legit .. complete in race prep and able to race on the track or first race entered?

just asking for advice here guys. not all teams go by the "tried and true" method. if everyone did the same where the hell would motorsports go? who would start a new revolution. racing would be boring and pointless. atleast that's how i feel. if i blow thousands of dollars on nothing. atleast i hope ill have had a couple good laughs and a couple good laps. but we'll see. i know lynonel a few years ago was told his car wouldnt be competitive and now it's the car people say i should run.

so to people like him , RR98ITR who understand where im coming from, and from the companies backing me.

 

scott i do have a direct easy and not dumb question for you. what rotors do you run? just curious . setting up my brakes as we speak.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">scott i do have a direct easy and not dumb question for you. what rotors do you run? just curious . setting up my brakes as we speak.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Get the cheapest rotors you can find, Autozone or Brembo blanks. Spend the money on brake pads.

 

so really doesnt matter which rotor? interesting.

 

Go with Autozone if you can. There stock doesn't vary as much as Discount Auto.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">just asking for advice here guys. not all teams go by the "tried and true" method. if everyone did the same where the hell would motorsports go? who would start a new revolution. racing would be boring and pointless.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

Right. But let the people with the money start the revolutions. You can't afford it.
Trust me. You can't.
You've already stated how much money you have and it ain't enough. Not close.

As far as Lyonel's car is concerned... For 4 years it WAS NOT the car to have. It was dogmeat in ITS. Lyonel got lucky and his car got reclassed, now its a great ITA car. But understand, please, that it was just L-U-C-K luck luck luck.
If it weren't for Honda Challenge H4, I'm betting Lyonel would have given up on his Civic before now because Lyonel is extremely competitive and he'd be tired of finishing 10th (on a good day) in ITS.
Pure speculation, but I've known Lyonel for years, and whether he wants to admit it or not IMO he WOULDN'T have been able to deal with 4 straight years of getting his *** handed to him in ITS.

Passion... Passion is for romantic morons.
Passion does not pay entry fees. Passion does not buy tires. Passion does not win races.

You enjoy your passion. I'll be up in post race impound getting my trophy, spending less money, affording to run more weekends, and having more fun than you and your clean lined passion.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">RR98ITR who understand where im coming from</TD></TR></TABLE>

See. If you ever needed proof that you are on the wrong track... There it is.
Rinde is the Honda Tech poster child for the most money invested per minute of actual seat time. Before starting any project I ask myself "What Would Rinde Do?" and I do the exact opposite. So far this approach has been bulletproof.
Maybe you can move to the PACNW and both of you can sit around and tell stories of what you WOULD do IF you actually ever raced while you passionately stare at your cars sitting on jackstands.

"The Rinde Plan"
I figure it costs something like $500 per mile on its current path.

Rotors - Brembo or Centric (From Cobalt)

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">setting up my brakes as we speak.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Setting up your brakes on what car? The imaginary one in your backyard? Dont forget to set up the graphics too.....

http://www.carbotecheng.com - thats all you need to know. Ask for Matt. Actually, scratch that. Ask for Larry - and when you do, ask for his advice, and when you do not follow it, please record the phone conversation that ensues and post it up here because an outburst from Larry is always good for a laugh.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by JRDbuilt &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">not all teams go by the "tried and true" method. if everyone did the same where the hell would motorsports go? who would start a new revolution. racing would be boring and pointless. atleast that's how i feel. if i blow thousands of dollars on nothing. atleast i hope ill have had a couple good laughs and a couple good laps.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Yeah, I can really see the next revolution in racing being the trend of using heavier, slower cars with no budgets. Let me know how that turns out for you.

 

Scott,

Without disputing what you've said - I haven't done the math myself - let me just say that you obviously have no comprehension of my particular form of Overachievement.

That's ok, I understand how it is that you don't understand.

BTW - You actually think that you're racing "alot". Whereas you think I'm not racing "alot".

Fact is though that I have a pretty good idea of what "alot" is. And isn't.

Alot is when you race two or four motos Thursday night, race two or four motos on Sunday, and practice for a couple hours two nights after work all summer long. And every one of those races starts with everyone lined up at the gate for russian roulette on the scratch, and a first turn that nothing in car racing can come close to.

Yes, you raced more than I did last year. It's not what I'd consider a significant difference in the scope of my experience.

Did I want to race more? Yes. So what - it still wouldn't be alot.

Scott, who misses complete immersion in racing, but not enough to give up everything all over again...and I know you know what I'm saying there.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Scott, who misses complete immersion in racing, but not enough to give up everything all over again...and I know you know what I'm saying there.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Well, you are immersed in racing.
Its just that you've managed to become immersed without actually doing much racing. You just spend "alot" of time and money on a car that spends "alot" of time not moving.

Thats a whole new kind of fucked up right there.
Congratulations on starting that Revolution, but you'll please excuse me if I choose to pass on actually following your lead. Seems a little too much like a suicide mission to me, and I'm not sure I have any "passion" for that cause.

My car already has about 700 track miles on it in 2005. Likely more than Rinde's has seen in 2 or 3 years, and I'm spending less money and probably "immersed" less than he is.
Does that mean I'm doing something better than him???
Only if you're sane.

Scott, who says there are ways to do this stuff that aren't totally ******* stupid.

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">My car already has about 700 track miles on it in 2005.</TD></TR></TABLE>

Nice work. I racked up almost 4,000 in 2004

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">....blah, blah, blah... sane....blah, blah, blah...

Scott, who says there are ways to do this stuff that aren't totally ******* stupid.</TD></TR></TABLE>

You keep thinking that...that you're not Totally ******* Stupid...

If I'm at 11, you're at 10.

So I'm buying the stairway to heaven, and you're what? Putting in the laps on the stairway to heaven? Ain't that different. The stairway lies on the whispering wind in any case.

Scott, who notes that you said your "car" has 700 miles in 2005 - not "you"....you're a no good cheating bastard....hehehe...."Racers!"....

 

While I'm not disputing you at all....!

I've been talking to JRDbuilt via im/pm.... his plan sounds a whole lot (along with the bullheadedness about the car choice) like...well...Lyonel 5 yrs ago.
When he started actually racing the EX it was no more than a CSP Autocross car with a cage in it....hell it wasn't even a nationally competitive CSP car-the wrong car for its class...(hence why my Type R went to Topeka in stock class instead).
Everything he did in steps...& even though everyone was constantly telling him the entire time "man you are stupid".....wasting money...get a different car...and have no clue what you're getting in to....I am wiser listen to me...
In the end we were pleased enough with it to rebuild the civic when the door was open to build something else.....its been years now since someone called us stupid (not including Giles ) for running the car we do......

there are some folks that no matter how many times you **** in their cornflakes... you can't convince them that their cornflakes are bad & they shouldn't go there...

hes held up quite well for 5 pages of primarily attacks (although very intended for his benefit - "to get through to him the reality" ) & is still wanting to go that way...

While yes it is true that "poof" thanks to your invention of Honda Challenge..& people like Kirk trying to get the rules straight...SCCA finally got their heads right & reclassed our car to ITA...happy days competitive car yea....

However if it had gone otherwise, while Lyonel probably would've eventually switched to something else had it stayed in ITS... he would not have regretted building the car...why?

Because...
He liked the car- wanted to build it- and learned a hell of a lot from it that would apply to any other car.
The satisfaction of running something YOU BUILT compared to what others BOUGHT into has - I can't even explain it- but theres satisfaction there...I don't expect people to understand what I mean here- unless they've built a "stupid" car like us...
Financially- yes it costs more in the long run to do it this way (irregardless of the choice of car) but for people like 16 yr olds (and the Kents) that don't have jack sitting in an account to blow on a race car...its like a "payment plan" where you aren't paying for anything you can't afford yet..... it makes more sense than taking out a loan for or depleting a savings acct of $14k $5k..whatever...to have it potentially totalled first time out on track... (at least thats how we see it)

Also with the go-fast goodies purchased in vastly gapped stages...you have to opportunity to push the car until you need the go-fast goodie thereby making it easier to drive the car to the limit....first in stock form then w/ the race goodie....

Like I said to JRDbuilt- we are the last people who would attack/diss someone for the choice of their car whether it makes sense or not. Its not like we weren't in his shoes for years.....and not everyone wants a crx or a hatchback....we can understand that.

Anyhow...just my .02

Danielle

btw...I knew Lyonel at JRDbuilt's age.... someone should've gotten him on a track way sooner- even if it was in "the wrong car".....

also..the majority of our sponsorship/media attn is not just solely b/c of Lyonel's driving...its also b/c the car is something different- you'd be amazed how much that can be worth in regards to support if you can keep the car towards the front.


Modified by Lyonel 13H4 at 2:44 PM 3/9/2005


Modified by Lyonel 13H4 at 3:09 PM 3/9/2005

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
So I'm buying the stairway to heaven, and you're what? Putting in the laps on the stairway to heaven? Ain't that different. The stairway lies on the whispering wind in any case.
</TD></TR></TABLE>

So, let me get this straight...
You're admitting that you have a Crack and Hooker habit, as am I.
But while I actually hit the rock and bang the ******, you just keep buying them and keeping them in a closet, never touching the stuff.
And you've somehow rationalized that this makes sense??? I guess health-wise you're better off than me, but thats about it.
As I've told you a million times, if you get THAT much pleasure from just tinkering and buying pimpy parts, sell your car and set yourself up as the crew chief on well funded Formula Atlantic team.
Now THAT would make sense.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by RR98ITR &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
Scott, who notes that you said your "car" has 700 miles in 2005 - not "you"....you're a no good cheating bastard....hehehe...."Racers!"....</TD></TR></TABLE>

My car is supporting 3 racers this year. Yours rarely supports one.
But I apologize for unintentionally misleading you Mr. Suuuuuuper Geeeeenius.

And Danielle...
I hear what youre saying, but in the end things worked out for you guys. The Honda Challenge came along and then the car went to ITA. The perfect happy ending to your little "Be Different" approach.
But what if it hadn't been a happy ending?
What if there had been no Honda Challenge?
What if the car hadn't gone to ITA?
Could you HONESTLY still look back on 5 years of getting your *** kicked in ITS and be happy with the decision to build the Civic?
Or would you look back in regret that you spent that kind of money and time to never be competitive in ITS. The kind of money and time that could have netted you a competitive ITS or ITA car in the first place had you chosen the right chassis.

I'll admit that you guys are a little weird, but I find it hard to believe that you are THAT weird. Because I know you are both competitive, and hate losing as much as I do.
Maybe I'm the crazy one. Maybe I'm TOO practical.
But I love to win. I race to win.
And I can't afford to throw lots of money at something that in the end might not have a chance at being a winner (like a 145lb overweight OBD II car).

And I've found very few people actually RACING that say that they just do it for fun and dont care about winning. Most people that say that have never actually done it. Once you get out there, you want to win.
If thats not true. If you don't care about winning, just save yourself alot of money and trouble and do HPDEs. Seriously.
At least then you're not in the way of people who DO care about winning.

 

I think though from talking to him- that he plans it to be a long term project...not SUPER delusional where he thinks he is going to go out & win the ARRC this year or anything..... going out to try to win the ARRC this yr is where we're at , where you might be at...but even he admits not where he is at.

Just b/c you build a car doesn't mean you have to run it forever....in fact if you look at the situation honestly for his age (with college etc etc coming up in a short while) chances are in the next few years he'll run a bunch of schools/hpdes maybe put a bit into the car....but with his age & everything going on in his world at his age...really will spent more money/time getting track time & the car will probably not get built to the extent that we think of when we think IT racecar.
Maybe ultimately he'll completely build the car (as Lyonel did with his...college is all that delayed his full build- he did auto-x & pca schools until that point)...maybe he'll pick something else at that point...who knows...but at least hes gotten his foot in the door...got some track time under his belt...& hopefully had a good time & learned a lot while doing it.

In our situation- knowing what was up financially & everything in our lives when the decision was made to build our Civic- even though it didn't make sense, wasn't even classed..
All assumed it would be originally classed into ITA- all meaning OPM Tom etc....& still thought it wasn't the route to go- even if the car had been originally classed in ITA as everyone assumed we were still told ...you will NEVER win ITA with that car...don't do it. Nobody including us even thought about the remote possibility of SCCA putting it in ITS.....the car wasn't actually classed until after we'd started racing it... (my point is back then it was assumed that it would be ITA- yet was still vastly considered a bad idea....)
When it did get classed into ITS... had it stayed there & HC not existed...we probably would've stopped throwing $ at it while we tried to get the car reclassed & think about our options...its not the way things actually went so I can't say for certain what we'd have done under different circumstances.
(At that point though it was still just a CSP auto-x car + a cage...
all we had "in it" for road racing was the cage, kill switch, a fire extinguisher, & 14" wheels.....
nothing we couldn't walk away from to leave sitting to wait & see if time would give it a new place...like a production class....or a re-class into ITA as did....
the rest like seats/suspension was part of the auto-x set up which we had continued on even though the car wasn't nationally competitive....shoot we put seats & suspension on the daily drivers..we almost don't think about that as a road racing specific cost..just a required car upgrade...)
At any point it would've been easy enough to walk away- a set back of a few months for another car/cage...but really nothing that was a big big deal to us....

Seriously no we would not have regretted it- I'm certain that Lyonel wouldn't be running it in ITS anymore- I give you that...
but with what we learned from that car- because you can't just pick the "tried and true best modification" from a vast assortment of parts when you run something different...we learned so much more than we would've had all the testing/research/etc been just sitting there ready for us to make a shopping list based on the last ARRC winner's car.

... what we learned in the process & the fact that we got him on track in a safe car to improve his skills as a driver & builder
...even if we'd scrapped it a while back wouldn't have regretted building it...
although it probably would make us more uneasy to using the oddball car with the next decision....

 

We don't ENCOURAGE anybody to follow us swimming against the grain as we do....
but if you choose to go against "better judgement" as we seem to do a lot...
we can respect that...

I belive in passion though.....
nothing good happens without passion behind it....
I think this applies to everything in life... including racing...
go ahead call me a hippy or silly romantic or stupid girl I don't care...
passion is more important than many people give it credit for....

Danielle

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Lyonel 13H4 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">passion is more important than many people give it credit for</TD></TR></TABLE>

I see it as passion being the force driving you to do something; while logic is the means you devised to accomplish it most efficiently. They are both as important. Many times if one is lacking, you can compensate for it with the other. But still as with anything, if you want to reach maximum potential you're going to need lots of both!

 

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Hracer &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

I see it as passion being the force driving you to do something; while logic is the means you devised to accomplish it most efficiently. They are both as important. Many times if one is lacking, you can compensate for it with the other. But still as with anything, if you want to reach maximum potential you're going to need lots of both!</TD></TR></TABLE>

Very true... we just have to work on the logical part...

 

Danielle = Hippie Chick.
My favorite Hippie Chick, but still a Hippie Chick.

Scott, who's passionate about winning, making bold passes, 4 car bump drafts, and winning. But NOT about what car he's driving.

 

Curious, does CJ have a passion to race, passion to build a race car, or passion to build a '96-'98 Civic EX HB racecar? If it's the last....well, then all of this makes a little more sense.