marck_c

Hello folks I'm new to Hondas and all motor in particular. I'm building a b16a for a road race Honda Civic. It's actually a 1973 GT5 Civic 1200. The car weigh's 1400lbs, and will run on Goodyerar 13x9 slicks.I would like to hear some thoughts on the followig combination.




- CTR Pistons

- ARP Rods
- Skunk Stage 2 Cams
- Clutchmaster Stg3 Clutch w/ Aluminum Flywheel
- SpoonSports 4-2-1 Header
- TWM 50mm I.T.B. w/ 320cc RC Injectors
- Omnipower Springs & retainers
- JDM Integra 4.785 Final Drive
- Quaife Differential
- Haltech E6S Engine Managment
- MSD 6A Ignition, with coil and MSD Cap & Rotor

My goal is 200 whp. Is this realistic???

xerox445

Good lord....thats awsome.


A b18 with some cams could probly hit 200 with that setup, but a b16 i dunno....

prkiller

200whp is possible with lots of tuning and the right header. The power question would be much better posted in the all motor forum! If you search around in there, you will find the answer because the same question has been asked a million times!

tnord

pretty sure they're limited in displacement. old GT5 used to be 1.5l limit iirc, not sure what the new GTL is.

.1type.

so sic....
good luck with the build... 200hp should not be a problem with that set up..

white rocket

What are the rules in the class your running in? Just curious if there are any restrictions towards the engine you run in the car.

Your not far off with the parts you listed. I would opt for a better header though.

RStoR

Here are two threads that may interest you.

https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1519846
https://honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1445185

speedracer33

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by white rocket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Your not far off with the parts you listed. I would opt for a better header though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

I still have my old JDM 4-1 race header for a B18C5 lying around....

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by white rocket &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">What are the rules in the class your running in? Just curious if there are any restrictions towards the engine you run in the car.</TD></TR></TABLE>
SCCA lists the following engine specs for GT-L with a B16...
B16A DOHC 81.0 x 77.4 1595 Alum, Crossflow 4 25mm SIR 1900 lbs
Pretty sure the 25mm is a choke/restristor plate size. Too bad. It would be nice if they gave you the option of running lower compression and less cam without the choke. Or a larger one anyway.
The guy you need to talk to is Preben Kristensen at Kristensen Automotive Developments: (519) 652-3434 He builds most of the fast engines in that class at the Runoffs and his son regularly kicks *** drivng his car in that class.

MarkosMotorsports

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by marck_c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hello folks I'm new to Hondas and all motor in particular. I'm building a b16a for a road race Honda Civic. It's actually a 1973 GT5 Civic 1200. The car weigh's 1400lbs, and will run on Goodyerar 13x9 slicks.I would like to hear some thoughts on the followig combination.
</TD></TR></TABLE>


Why dont you contact me about your car. We have a 1973 Civic that has everything ready to go except for the drivetrain and are currently researching a B16 in it as well. I would love to be able to share the information and help each other out.






Modified by MarkosMotorsports at 8:33 AM 2/17/2006

tnord

SIR - supplemental intake restrictor

i think..... that's what it stands for, but yes, that is a TINY restrictor. miata's use 43 & 41mm restrictors.

solo-x

i would rethink the cam selection. look for the vtec killer cams. chad had good luck with them (and i think he's selling some used ones too, though i might be wrong). you might need to do a custom grind on the cam to maximize what you can get out of the motor with the restrictor. 25mm SIR is TINY though. maybe a typo? i'm pretty sure the formula SAE guys have to use a 25mm restrictor and that's just for a 600cc engine. of course, they are spinning the motor a couple thousand rpm more...

nate

stevel

Flat plate restrictors are a totally different animal compared to an SIR. If you've seen the debate on the BMW boards you'd get a lot of info. SIR's are based on mathematical calculations and the size is chosen to stop the engine from making power past that point. A 27mm SIR is supposed to limit power output to 220 hp at the crank. They are not supposed to affect the powerband, but the size is chosen to limit peak HP. It's designed to work to not affect tq or hp curves, but will just lop off the top of the graph at the hp ceiling it was designed for. A 25mm SIR will probably limit peak output at the crank in the 210 range or so. Pretty cool stuff. The air velocity reaches supersonic as it passes thru the SIR!



check out http://www.raetech.com/Motorsp....html for more info on SIR's.

very cool car by the way.

steve

thawley

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">SIR's are based on mathematical calculations and the size is chosen to stop the engine from making power past that point... They are not supposed to affect the powerband, but the size is chosen to limit peak HP. It's designed to work to not affect tq or hp curves, but will just lop off the top of the graph at the hp ceiling it was designed for</TD></TR></TABLE>
For reals??? Hard to believe it does not affect the torque curve. I guess I got some reading to do...

Got a link or two for the BM board discussions?

FlyZlow

Wow, that sounds like a pretty fun setup. 81 x 77.4? I didn't realize that the B16's were that oversquare. I'd imagine with the right valve springs, cams, and rods you could spin that motor to 10k+ pretty easily. I don't know if you could get it to breathe at those speeds with a 25mm restrictor plate though.

stevel

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by FlyZlow &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I don't know if you could get it to breathe at those speeds with a 25mm restrictor plate though.</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Flat plate restrictors are a totally different animal compared to an SIR.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">For reals??? Hard to believe it does not affect the torque curve. I guess I got some reading to do...

Got a link or two for the BM board discussions?</TD></TR></TABLE>

don't have a link but it's on bimmerforums under there RR section I believe. It'll be a huge thread, lots of BS in there.

s

solo-x

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by stevel &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">don't have a link but it's on bimmerforums under there RR section I believe. It'll be a huge thread, lots of BS in there.

s</TD></TR></TABLE>

yeah, i love the nice rip on andy about 4 posts in. haven't waded through everything just yet, but what i've read on restrictor plates and seen from the FSAE crowd, a flat plate of a certain diameter will flow less air then a properly designed trumpet of a smaller diameter. i still think 25mm is aweful small though. the fsae guys were running into issues with icing and supersonic pressure waves in the intake tract even with the trumpets. afaik they're only making 100whp +/- NA. maybe i'm remembering the fsae restrictor size incorrectly?

nate

marck_c

Gentlemen, I apoligize for the delay in responding to your questions. Unfortunately the forum only allows me to make 5 posts within 24 hours. Does any one out there know how to circumvent this??

The car is to be raced here in Jamaica, and we have no restrictor rule. The only rule which affects the engine is a cc/weight formula, which limits a 1600cc to 1411 lbs, hence the decision to go with the b16, which would still have the ability to give good hp, without so much torque to overwhelm a very light chassis.

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Why dont you contact me about your car. We have a 1973 Civic that has everything ready to go except for the drivetrain and are currently researching a B16 in it as well. I would love to be able to share the information and help each other out.

</TD></TR></TABLE>

Markos would love to share info with you on your project. Give me an email address. There is some good info on the 1stgencivic.com website about how dto do the swap.

Try the following thread:

http://www.1stgencivic.com/for...t=732

I think this car is going to be a real rocket when it's done. The body pretty rusty, and I am having the body shop weld in new steel averywhere. But the chassis is straight. It is semi-tube frame in the rear, and all the suspension pickup points are rose jointed, with multiple adjustment points. It is also shimmed for optimum bump steer and roll center geometry. I am upgrading the brakes from the standard 10" disc up front and drum brakes in rear, to 4 piston Wilwood calipers up front and 2 piston Wilwood in the rear. I'll post some pics of the restoration later.

Johnny Mac

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by thawley &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">
For reals??? Hard to believe it does not affect the torque curve. I guess I got some reading to do...

Got a link or two for the BM board discussions?</TD></TR></TABLE>

Thawley, while you're at it, read about Laval nozzles to find out why flow gets choked at a certain mass flow rate. I would tell you, but why would I want to spoil your fun.

xerox445

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by solo-x &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">

yeah, i love the nice rip on andy about 4 posts in. haven't waded through everything just yet, but what i've read on restrictor plates and seen from the FSAE crowd, a flat plate of a certain diameter will flow less air then a properly designed trumpet of a smaller diameter. i still think 25mm is aweful small though. the fsae guys were running into issues with icing and supersonic pressure waves in the intake tract even with the trumpets. afaik they're only making 100whp +/- NA. maybe i'm remembering the fsae restrictor size incorrectly?

nate</TD></TR></TABLE>

Top FSAE cars make about 80 whp max. Cornell made 79 on a turbo motor, Rutgers made 70 NA GO RU!

Frito

I still can't believe you found this KING motorsports car after such a long time! Good luck with it and I hope to see more and more updates.

Francisco

Catch 22

I'd personally love to see this car restored to original spec and vintage raced. I'm sure it has a history that King could verify.
The pickin's are pretty slim for Hondas in Vintage, so it'd be great to save what we can.

Of course, if that isn't a viable option in Jamaica... Then you gotta do what you can do to race.

jaydmcrx

Damn thats o.g. Right click set as desk top background!

RagingAngel

Just trying to spread the fire.....









<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by Catch 22 &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">I'd personally love to see this car restored to original spec and vintage raced. I'm sure it has a history that King could verify.
The pickin's are pretty slim for Hondas in Vintage, so it'd be great to save what we can.

Of course, if that isn't a viable option in Jamaica... Then you gotta do what you can do to race.</TD></TR></TABLE>


Agree completely....

ekim952522000

<TABLE WIDTH="90%" CELLSPACING=0 CELLPADDING=0 ALIGN=CENTER><TR><TD>Quote, originally posted by marck_c &raquo;</TD></TR><TR><TD CLASS="quote">Hello folks I'm new to Hondas and all motor in particular. I'm building a b16a for a road race Honda Civic. It's actually a 1973 GT5 Civic 1200. The car weigh's 1400lbs, and will run on Goodyerar 13x9 slicks.I would like to hear some thoughts on the followig combination.




- CTR Pistons

- ARP Rods
- Skunk Stage 2 Cams
- Clutchmaster Stg3 Clutch w/ Aluminum Flywheel
- SpoonSports 4-2-1 Header
- TWM 50mm I.T.B. w/ 320cc RC Injectors
- Omnipower Springs & retainers
- JDM Integra 4.785 Final Drive
- Quaife Differential
- Haltech E6S Engine Managment
- MSD 6A Ignition, with coil and MSD Cap & Rotor

My goal is 200 whp. Is this realistic???

</TD></TR></TABLE>

swith cams from skunk 2 - toda spec C or vtec killer
switch final drive to ats 4.9
omnipower swith to toda springs and retainers
swith spoon header to toda or comptech
use a hondata s300
use toda ITB's over twm

just my 2 cents

And sweet car